Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:01 pm

To save you wasting time on it, skip to page four on the said thread and you'll see if read that how wrong you are mate. Mourinho is very probably many things, but unfortunately and undeniably he is a football manager with an absolutely staggering record.

Anyway, enough about him I didn't start the thread to dicuss a manager who plies his trade in Italy. Sacking our manager is definately not the smart move right now anyway, I agree with you on that score at least.

by **Fowler_E7** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:04 pm

The_Rock wrote:
On the left, assuming Riera is going to be sold/has fallen out with the manager/isn't doing well enough in training or whatever, that leaves a gap.

Heard a rumour that we are gonna buy Rafael van der vaart (with Riera going to barcelona as to finance the deal).

Well if that happens, it will be a good move. Finally we will get a winger who is pacy....has a good 1st touch, can dribble and can put in decent crosses.

Will be good for the champions league campaign....

except van der vart isnt a winger

by **Sir Roger** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:06 pm

Firstly Rafas going nowhere
Get over it. Good or bad, right or wrong hes here to stay

The main thing that worried me last night was the players attitude and lack of discipline. I have always prided myself on the fact that Liverpool players dont get involved with officials and let their game be disrupted by :censored:

decisions.
That didnt happen last night. Besides the poor show from most players (I thought Johnson and Insua had decent games) the sight of our players growing more and more enraged at the referee filled me with dread. It was like they lost their minds. I cannot think of a time where I have seen our players so undisciplined and ragged, totally wound up to the point of giving away the game to a lesser opposition. Torres was like a madman and Reinas petulant kick of the ball after it was a definite corner was shocking and I believe led to the second goal.

Even when we dragged ourselves back into the game the red mist took over and we lost it with the penalty.
An own goal from a needless free kick
A goal from a disputed corner
And a moment of madness for the penalty
The self destruct button was well and truly pushed last night

by **Scottbot** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:16 pm

Another good read from the excellent Oliver Kay, he usually does a good job of seeing both sides of the picture.

Oliver Kay

In the weeks and months ahead, no matter what he may or may not achieve in the white shirt of Real Madrid, Xabi Alonso's reputation threatens to reach mythical proportions back on Merseyside.

It is inevitable. Rafael Benitez will not like it, but, as Liverpool succumbed last night to a second defeat in three Premier League matches, losing 3-1 at home to Aston Villa, it was hard to suppress the feeling that Alonso's absence is already being felt.

Let us be sensible here. Alonso would not have prevented Villa’s second goal, headed in at the near post by Curtis Davies from a Nicky Shorey corner, or their third, a penalty converted by Ashley Young after a rash tackle by an alarmingly erratic Steven Gerrard. Nor is there any reason to assume that he would have made the difference at the other end with a defence-splitting pass; this, whatever his marvellous vision and range of passing, is not his forte.

There is a school of thought among some Liverpool fans that the significance of Alonso’s loss is being overstated by hysterical factions within their support and, naturally, by knee-jerk merchants in the media. “You spent the whole of last season saying we were totally reliant on Gerrard and Torres and now you’re saying Alonso was our most important player,” goes the argument.

There is some basis in that, but a personal point of view, one stated on several occasions last season, is that Alonso challenged and perhaps even eclipsed Gerrard as Liverpool’s most influential player over the course of the campaign. This is a subjective view, one perhaps shaped by a longstanding weakness for a deep-lying playmaker – Andrea Pirlo, Glenn Hoddle, Jan Molby even in his rotund later years. I always found Alonso a joy to watch.

One figure within the club said to me recently that Alonso’s value was overestimated by the supporters and that replacing him with a more dynamic, attack-minded midfield player – which meant Alberto Aquilani, whose debut is on hold while he recovers from injury, rather than Lucas – would improve the team.

Only time will tell on that, but even Alonso’s greatest admirers would admit that his performance level dipped during the second, third and fourth of his five years on Merseyside. Similarly, they will acknowledge that, for reasons too complicated to go into here, he had become an unhappy player, desperate to take up the opportunity of a refresh start in Madrid. On that basis, the £30 million fee procured from Real represented good business.

The majesty of Alonso’s passing was not always reflected in the number of goals he laid on for his team-mates, but what he did bring Liverpool was a composure and a discipline that was rarely in evidence against Villa. He is a highly intelligent player, tactically astute. Without him Liverpool played like a headless chicken XI last night – not only Lucas, who carelessly conceded the free kick from which he scored the own goal that gave Villa the lead, but also Gerrard and Javier Mascherano.

Perhaps this was to be expected. With Alonso gone, Liverpool have had to change the way they play, evolving towards something closer to a 4-1-4-1 formation, which will come into play once Aquilani is fit. In the meantime they have Lucas, who is neither an Alonso nor an Aquilani, and there is a palpable lack of class in the middle of the pitch.

Such shortcomings, though, might not have been so evident had Liverpool not been off-colour elsewhere, had Gerrard been on top of his game or had Jamie Carragher and Martin Skrtel defended with the authority they showed throughout last season.

Despite all their failings, Liverpool had enough opportunities to win the game. They had at least five clear chances to score before Fernando Torres finally pulled the deficit back to 2-1 with 18 minutes remaining. Brad Friedel, their former goalkeeper, played superbly, but he might reflect that this was not one of those nights he has had down the years when he pulls off one miraculous-looking save after another. Few of Liverpool’s efforts – from Torres, Gerrard and Dirk Kuyt – forced to make the truly outstanding saves of which he is capable.

Liverpool need to get their act together. Alonso’s loss is not insurmountable – and nor, in a season in which there are question marks over just about all the title challengers, is a record of two defeats in the first three games. But they cannot afford many more nights like Monday if the highly sensitive issue of Alonso’s sale is not to be brought up every time they slip up.

by **tubby** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:18 pm

dawson99 wrote:blaming the yanks is a cheap poor move by our part. the team on the park last night should have won... the yanks didnt play the 90 minutes, our players did, and they failed

Why is it a cheap shot? The yanks determine Rafas budget which determines which players we buy. They are directly to blame and rightly so. Rafa is not blameless and neither are the player but the owners must certaintley shoulder blame for this.

by **Bammo** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:29 pm

For those of you calling for Rafa's head, what would be your plan for success?

The reason I ask is we have no money for a new manager to spend so he would be working with the squad we have at present. Who do you think would come here and improve performances and results with the same squad?

by **FuzzyBear** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:30 pm

bavlondon wrote:
dawson99 wrote:blaming the yanks is a cheap poor move by our part. the team on the park last night should have won... the yanks didnt play the 90 minutes, our players did, and they failed

Why is it a cheap shot? The yanks determine Rafas budget which determines which players we buy. They are directly to blame and rightly so. Rafa is not blameless and neither are the player but the owners must certaintley shoulder blame for this.

Wenger has managed to establish a glittering career without spending large sums of money for players.

Arsenal lost Adebayor and Toure this summer and yet I haven't seen Arsenal fans whinging about a lack of funds or the fact they haven't strengthend their squad this summer.

The difference between Wenger and Benitez is that Wenger knows how to win the Premiership, where as Benitez hasn't got a clue and Wenger knows how to operate in an over inflated transfer market, Benitez does not.

Wenger can walk into any club and make them successful, Benitez can only hope to make a difference.

by **stmichael** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:30 pm

Bammo wrote:For those of you calling for Rafa's head, what would be your plan for success?

The reason I ask is we have no money for a new manager to spend so he would be working with the squad we have at present. Who do you think would come here and improve performances and results with the same squad?

It would also cost the best part of £20-30m to pay him and his staff off.

by **mistyred** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:31 pm

Bammo wrote:For those of you calling for Rafa's head, what would be your plan for success?

The reason I ask is we have no money for a new manager to spend so he would be working with the squad we have at present. Who do you think would come here and improve performances and results with the same squad?

I think 4-4-2 and every bloody player in their natural position
would go a long way to sorting out teams like Villa.

by **stmichael** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:32 pm

mistyred wrote:I think 4-4-2 and every bloody player in their natural position
would go a long way to sorting out teams like Villa.

Who would you play on the right in a 4-4-2 then? We don't have a natural wide right player.

by **Bammo** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:34 pm

mistyred wrote:
Bammo wrote:For those of you calling for Rafa's head, what would be your plan for success?

The reason I ask is we have no money for a new manager to spend so he would be working with the squad we have at present. Who do you think would come here and improve performances and results with the same squad?

I think 4-4-2 and every bloody player in their natural position
would go a long way to sorting out teams like Villa.

If Rafa switches to 4-4-2 against Bolton and we win will there still be calls to replace him?

I want Rafa to stay but I do think we need to change the way we play and 4-4-2 looks like the most sensible option.

by **tubby** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:34 pm

FuzzyBear wrote:
bavlondon wrote:
dawson99 wrote:blaming the yanks is a cheap poor move by our part. the team on the park last night should have won... the yanks didnt play the 90 minutes, our players did, and they failed

Why is it a cheap shot? The yanks determine Rafas budget which determines which players we buy. They are directly to blame and rightly so. Rafa is not blameless and neither are the player but the owners must certaintley shoulder blame for this.

Wenger has managed to establish a glittering career without spending large sums of money for players.

Arsenal lost Adebayor and Toure this summer and yet I haven't seen Arsenal fans whinging about a lack of funds or the fact they haven't strengthend their squad this summer.

The difference between Wenger and Benitez is that Wenger knows how to win the Premiership, where as Benitez hasn't got a clue and Wenger knows how to operate in an over inflated transfer market, Benitez does not.

Wenger can walk into any club and make them successful, Benitez can only hope to make a difference.

Oh please...before the start of the season all you could hear from Arsenal fans was doom gloom and despair. It was only after that 6-1 result at Everton people thought ok we will look stupid if we keep moaning now so lets just change our tune being one of the most bi polar set of fans since Chelsea.

I am not doubting Wengers capabilities as a manager either. He is world class no doubt about what it comes down to man for man they have a more talanted set of players at their disposal. Whether that is down to bad scouting on our part or bad nurturing of talent...well that is for another thread.

But just remember where we were when Rafa arrived compared to what we might have done last season had it not been for a few points lost on home draws.

by **FuzzyBear** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:36 pm

Bammo wrote:For those of you calling for Rafa's head, what would be your plan for success?

The reason I ask is we have no money for a new manager to spend so he would be working with the squad we have at present. Who do you think would come here and improve performances and results with the same squad?

If every Liverpool fan boycotted attending games, watching matches and purchasing merchandise, the Americans will have no choice, but to sell.

Standing on seats, telling the Americans to "go home" after spending several hundred pounds on a season ticket, forty pounds on a replica shirt and a few pounds on a hot dog isn't an effective way of forcing them to sell.

by **stmichael** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:39 pm

FuzzyBear wrote:The difference between Wenger and Benitez is that Wenger knows how to win the Premiership, where as Benitez hasn't got a clue

Wenger can walk into any club and make them successful, Benitez can only hope to make a difference.

Thats an ignorant statement that gets repeated all too often here.

There is no "secret" to winning the Premiership. Just because you have won it before doesn't mean that you have some magical knowledge. It just means that you are ahead of the curve in management terms. Name who was Wenger up against? Fergie, who isn't a tactical genius (just had superior players).

I doubt Wenger can duplicate what he has achieved in Arsenal anywhere else. So even in some fantasy world where we did get Wenger instead of Rafa years ago, he would only have gotten at most the backing Rafa has, and achieved far less. Fancy football, no doubt, but nowhere near as many trophies.

by **tubby** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:39 pm

FuzzyBear wrote:
Bammo wrote:For those of you calling for Rafa's head, what would be your plan for success?

The reason I ask is we have no money for a new manager to spend so he would be working with the squad we have at present. Who do you think would come here and improve performances and results with the same squad?

If every Liverpool fan boycotted attending games, watching matches and purchasing merchandise, the Americans will have no choice, but to sell.

Standing on seats, telling the Americans to "go home" after spending several hundred pounds on a season ticket, forty pounds on a replica shirt and a few pounds on a hot dog isn't an effective way of forcing them to sell.

In this day and age when so much revenue comes from overseas, a boycott is near impossible.

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