Liverpool FC Forum

by **Scottbot** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:08 am

I steered clear of the match thread yesterday as feelings (plus sewveral pints for many!) are always running very high after a loss. Can't say i was surprised that we lost the game, Spurs are an excellent side at home and found some good form towards the end of pre-season. Ny observations from the game:

- Reina was absolutely brilliant, our best player by miles and at least we have the best keeper in the league.

- Agree fully with the posters who said we didn't press the ball or work as a team in the first half, we really looked like a team who had only just met.

- The game was actually swinging our way (we looked like we had settled) in the five minutes prior to Carr and Skrtel colliding, Spurs seemed to step it up a gear the minute we were temporariliy reduced to 9 and then 10 men.

- Lucas is predictably receiving the brunt of criticism from many on here. Watch the game people, he played better than many of his teamates, not particularly creative with the ball but he made some excellent tackles.

- We got a glimps of what we can expect from Johnson this season. He gave away possession with a couple of stray passes when he was high up the pitch (which could have cost us) and then he turned the game back in our direction with a fantastic run. He will be a big asset in our home games against the smaller sides and perhaps, a bit of a risk in away games against the better sides.

- This game is no big deal if we can come out and win our next two games. I would have been happy with a draw, so it's only one point less.

- We lost the midfield battle, Alonso has made this team tick since the day he got here, it was always gonna be difficult to replace him and the lads have to quickly learn how to play without him. A lot of people will call for Gerrard to drop back and i think that is what we will see if things don't go so well in the next two games.

- Yossi was brilliant when he came on. He must start our next two games. He is more than capable of playing the Gerrard role if the skipper reverts to centre-mid.

- We need a dominant centre-half. Go and get get Turner or Shawcross. I'm not a fan of Upson

- We need another quality forward. Spurs bought on Pavlychenko as their 4TH CHOICE forward yesterday, 4TH CHOICE!!! He is a better player (for me) up-front than Voronin, Ngog, Babel and Kuyt.

by **GYBS** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:14 am

aCe' wrote:i give up

well lets not let reality get in the way of a good scapegoating shall we ace - have you found these multiple posts of mine yet ? any evidence to back up your accusations of me ?

go back and watch the game and then tell me if gerrard,torres and masher played better than lucas - cause thats what people are saying here and if you watch the game its a total injustice to lucas

by **mistyred** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:15 am

Luka Modric is bloody player.

Sorry i know he plays for spurs but he's excellent, we missed a trick with that
one, i think we would kill for a player of that ability.

All spurs strikers are better than ours except Torres of course.

by **Raj_Xedos** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:16 am

Scottbot wrote:I steered clear of the match thread yesterday as feelings (plus sewveral pints for many!) are always running very high after a loss. Can't say i was surprised that we lost the game, Spurs are an excellent side at home and found some good form towards the end of pre-season. Ny observations from the game:

- Reina was absolutely brilliant, our best player by miles and at least we have the best keeper in the league.

- Agree fully with the posters who said we didn't press the ball or work as a team in the first half, we really looked like a team who had only just met.

- The game was actually swinging our way (we looked like we had settled) in the five minutes prior to Carr and Skrtel colliding, Spurs seemed to step it up a gear the minute we were temporariliy reduced to 9 and then 10 men.

- Lucas is predictably receiving the brunt of criticism from many on here. Watch the game people, he played better than many of his teamates, not particularly creative with the ball but he made some excellent tackles.

- We got a glimps of what we can expect from Johnson this season. He gave away possession with a couple of stray passes when he was high up the pitch (which could have cost us) and then he turned the game back in our direction with a fantastic run. He will be a big asset in our home games against the smaller sides and perhaps, a bit of a risk in away games against the better sides.

- This game is no big deal if we can come out and win our next two games. I would have been happy with a draw, so it's only one point less.

- We lost the midfield battle, Alonso has made this team tick since the day he got here, it was always gonna be difficult to replace him and the lads have to quickly learn how to play without him. A lot of people will call for Gerrard to drop back and i think that is what we will see if things don't go so well in the next two games.

- Yossi was brilliant when he came on. He must start our next two games. He is more than capable of playing the Gerrard role if the skipper reverts to centre-mid.

- We need a dominant centre-half. Go and get get Turner or Shawcross. I'm not a fan of Upson

- We need another quality forward. Spurs bought on Pavlychenko as their 4TH CHOICE forward yesterday, 4TH CHOICE!!! He is a better player (for me) up-front than Voronin, Ngog, Babel and Kuyt.

Scottbot,

a well written account of the game i feel, and i think ur right about lucas.....he hasnt done anything special for us but like u said, he played better than most of his counter parts yesterday.

Lucas and Mascherano are very similar players where they break up the play and just knock it sideways or backwards......xabi's first look was always forwards and had the ability to find the perfect pass.

Come on rafa, i know your a member on these forums.....go and get an attacking midfielder or a forward.

by **GYBS** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:20 am

Im not sure xabi first look was always forwards - the guy did play a hell of a lot of sideways passes and little five yard passes - the thing we do miss with him is the spreading the ball out wide forward to kuyt or reira as opposed to spreading it out wide sideways to a fullback which we did a lot of yesterday

by **stmichael** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:21 am

Are some of you who are advocating dropping Lucas and moving Gerrard back into midfield not overlooking the possibility that yesterday it wasn't Lucas who was the problem in midfield, but Mascherano? The issue yesterday was not with winning the ball back, but keeping it when we had it. Personally I thought that Lucas had a fairly tidy game. I'm not so sure that the same could be said of Mascherano. Some of the posts on this thread and on others seems to be latching on to the idea that because of who he is, Mascherano is exempt from blame for what happened yesterday. At one stage it was like Old Trafford two seasons a go all over again. I thought he was going to get himself sent off.

by **Thinkpad** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:29 am

redbeergoggles wrote:Lets view this game as a kick up the backside, holidays are well and truly over if Liverpool genuinely have any aspirations towards becoming Champions then the sand needs to be shook out of their proverbial boots
Babel doesn't merit any inclusion in my post ,abjectly pathetic excuse for a winger .
Mascherano is taking the p*ss out of the shirt he's wearing ,if he doesn't have the heart for the fight any more, then that red shirt needs to come off his ungrateful back ,Lucas was doing the work of two ,no wonder he couldn't afford to play further up the field ,this game was crying out for invention and the inclusion of a little live wire like Pacheco ,he and Insua were the only players who impressed me pre-season

On a more positive note Ayala fitted in quite well and Insua had a steady game ,Benayoun pulled their defence all over the place and was the architect of our most attacking forays ,Gerrard will get better every game he plays ,and Johnson will prove to be a very useful addition ,and lets not forget Spurs have recently become our new bogey team ........

Whose to say Liverpool wont go the rest of this season unbeaten ,this match could well be the catalyst for a truly remarkable season, today has been a sobering experience lets hope its a watershed for the players as well .

It goes without saying enough pundits and journalists are awaiting our fall with feverish glee ,so maybe we as fans should back the Reds , and see what the season brings the hard graft begins now cmon the Redmen .

Seriously all of us are praying for this. Sometimes we need a big loss to kick us into gear, unfortunately it might not be big enough a loss. But the fact that we were outplayed in every department should help to force Rafa for some serious thinking. Maybe just maybe he will realised that to win you will need to score more than the opposition and not about stopping opponents from scoring. Mentality ought to change and it must start from the top...

No doubt we are complaining about our lack of performance but this does not mean we don't support Liverpool. A bad performance is a bad performance. We must be able to take it as it is and be critical with our performance so we can improve. If the fans are happy with such performance why should Rafa or the players step up or improve. Everyone is happy.. why change?

by **Effes** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:30 am

stmichael wrote:Are some of you who are advocating dropping Lucas and moving Gerrard back into midfield not overlooking the possibility that yesterday it wasn't Lucas who was the problem in midfield, but Mascherano? The issue yesterday was not with winning the ball back, but keeping it when we had it. Personally I thought that Lucas had a fairly tidy game. I'm not so sure that the same could be said of Mascherano. Some of the posts on this thread and on others seems to be latching on to the idea that because of who he is, Mascherano is exempt from blame for what happened yesterday. At one stage it was like Old Trafford two seasons a go all over again. I thought he was going to get himself sent off.

St - Aldo gave Masch 2nd place man of the match. (I think Benny got 1st)

I didnt watch the full 90 mins so I cant comment

by **GYBS** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:32 am

Effes wrote:
stmichael wrote:Are some of you who are advocating dropping Lucas and moving Gerrard back into midfield not overlooking the possibility that yesterday it wasn't Lucas who was the problem in midfield, but Mascherano? The issue yesterday was not with winning the ball back, but keeping it when we had it. Personally I thought that Lucas had a fairly tidy game. I'm not so sure that the same could be said of Mascherano. Some of the posts on this thread and on others seems to be latching on to the idea that because of who he is, Mascherano is exempt from blame for what happened yesterday. At one stage it was like Old Trafford two seasons a go all over again. I thought he was going to get himself sent off.

St - Aldo gave Masch 2nd place man of the match. (I think Benny got 1st)

I didnt watch the full 90 mins so I cant comment

Aldo needs to open his eyes mate - Pepe was our MOTM followed by Yossi but masher was shocking - made a number of rash tackles , gave the ball away on numerous occasions and one mistake lead to carra and skrtel getting injured when he spooned the ball - also his mouth nearly got him into trouble . masher was very much well below par

by **bigmick** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:38 am

Scottbot wrote:- We need another quality forward. Spurs bought on Pavlychenko as their 4TH CHOICE forward yesterday, 4TH CHOICE!!! He is a better player (for me) up-front than Voronin, Ngog, Babel and Kuyt .

Is that put together or on an individual basis Scott

by **GYBS** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:42 am

Wanted Pavluychenko after the euros last summer - very good striker and would take him of spuds

by **mistyred** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:43 am

Masch was shocking yesterday, i think he's got the hump about something

We should have brought in Negredo or Van de Vart as part of the Alonso deal.

by **tommycockles** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:50 am

stmichael wrote:Are some of you who are advocating dropping Lucas and moving Gerrard back into midfield not overlooking the possibility that yesterday it wasn't Lucas who was the problem in midfield, but Mascherano? The issue yesterday was not with winning the ball back, but keeping it when we had it. Personally I thought that Lucas had a fairly tidy game. I'm not so sure that the same could be said of Mascherano. Some of the posts on this thread and on others seems to be latching on to the idea that because of who he is, Mascherano is exempt from blame for what happened yesterday. At one stage it was like Old Trafford two seasons a go all over again. I thought he was going to get himself sent off.

Although I don't think Lucas was particularly bad yesterday, and it certainly wasn't his fault we lost - he's not the creative player you need in midfield so i would go for Gerrard in a midfield role on wednesday as Benni will do a good job in the supporting role. We need to put out our strongest team until everyone's at full fitness, so if moving Gerrard back for now helps us to improve then it needs to be done.

In all honesty Gerrard didn't play well, Torres didn't feature at all, Babel is Babel, Mascherano was seriously wound up (probabaly due to everyone else being cack), our centre backs were rattled (probably due to the same reason as Masch). The only good players were Reina, Insua, Johnson and Benni when he came on.

Very frustrating but it's only the first game and i'd rather lose away to Spurs than draw to Stoke as we did last year. Roll on wednesday and hopefully we'll turn up and play a bit better!

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:54 am

stmichael wrote:Are some of you who are advocating dropping Lucas and moving Gerrard back into midfield not overlooking the possibility that yesterday it wasn't Lucas who was the problem in midfield, but Mascherano? The issue yesterday was not with winning the ball back, but keeping it when we had it. Personally I thought that Lucas had a fairly tidy game. I'm not so sure that the same could be said of Mascherano. Some of the posts on this thread and on others seems to be latching on to the idea that because of who he is, Mascherano is exempt from blame for what happened yesterday. At one stage it was like Old Trafford two seasons a go all over again. I thought he was going to get himself sent off.

Yeah, I was a little worried he'd see red as well. Dowd was absolutely card happy and Masch picked up the predictable early booking. He then put in that slide tackle from behind and Dowd had a long word with him afterwards. Thankfully, Masch got the message or we could have found ourselves a goal down and a man light, with two groggy CBs to worry about.

For me, on the Lucas v. Masch thing, I think Lucas played closer to the top of his ability than Masch on the day. We all know who we'd rather have in the side when on form, of course, but yesterday, for me, Lucas was more effective than Masch (while not being great...).

On the issue of pressing in the first half, did anyone else get the sense that this was a tactical decision by Rafa? The commentators picked up on it straight away: Gerrard, Torres and Kuyt (does Babel ever press?) were standing off when the Spurs defenders had the ball and closing down quickly whenever they looked to pass it into Palacios or esp. Huddlestone. It seemed the game plan was to starve the CMs of service and force the defenders to try and lump it forward. Given that Keane, Defoe, Modric and Lennon are not the tallest lads, it seemed to be a decent tactical move and it fundamentally worked for the first half an hour. Unfortunately, IMO, it came at the expense of our own momentum and fluency. We know how effective our team can be when they play the high-tempo pressing game, with Gerrard, Torres and Kuyt buzzing about and forcing errors. By standing off, it looks like the lads struggled to get into any kind of rhythm when they had the ball and, as a result, we had a completely disjointed first half.

by **stmichael** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:54 am

As I said before, I thought Lucas was the better of the two yesterday. But on the whole central midfielders need to offer something going forward and neither of them do. I said the other week that I wanted to see Lucas getting into the positions like he did for his goal against Athletico more but he barely crossed the half way line. It didn't help though that the attacking four kept giving the ball away every five seconds and putting us back on the back foot.

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