Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:02 am

This is not a Rafa bashing topic starter. Just to reiterate, this is not a topic where the intention is to bash Rafa in any way.

The point is this. It appears from admittedly hearsay but plenty of it, that sometime around the time Xabi Alonso wanted to miss a European match to be at the birth of his son, his relationship with Rafa began to deteriorate. I actually agree with Rafa on this one to be honest. This modern trend to down tools in the middle of whatever you're doing so you can be there at the birth is all very well, but surely there has to be some responsibility to the club and the fans when you are earning 3 or 4 million quid a year? Anyway rafa didn't like it, and from then on you kind of got the feeling that the writing was on the wall as far as Xabi was concerned.

There have been other managers who have had the "my way or the highway" approach, and to my mind there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. There is only one manager, and what he says goes.

All that said, there has to IMHO be a relationship between a manager and a player which goes beyond the "I'm the manager, you're the player". At least there does in modern football if you are trying to keep hold of absolutely top class players and you are unable to pay absolutely top class wages, which it appears that we aren't. Reading from the comments from the manager, we came perilously close to losing BOTH of our first choice central midfielders this Summer, and it remains to be seen whther Masherano will be able to overcome his disappointment (WTF

) at "having" to stay at Liverpool and missing out on his move to a "Massive club".

So anyway I've heard the way Rafa is talking up Masherano as of now, he's given Torres the new deal and generally he's been more gushing IMHO than previously about certain members of the squad. I think we are gradually seeing an acceptance by the manager that perhaps he has to work harder at his relationships with the players given these turbulent financial times at the club. It doesn't necessarily mean he was wrong before, but perhaps there is some evolution going on in terms of attitude, and like Ferguson apparently not throwing cups of tea anymore, it's probably a change which has been forced upon him by circumstance to some extent.

by **Nando26** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:24 am

Everyone should be aloud to witness the birth of thier child no matter how much they earn & how much thier "job" means to others

However i am in Rafas corner with the way he doesnt massage the egos of the players & at the end of the day Alonso wasnt the player he was when Rafa apparently tried to get Barry to replace him (biggest rumour of all time by the way) fair enough he was injuried thgroughtout the season & a half leading up to the last one which i have pointed out was probally the reason for his dip in form. But what if Alonso hadnt been givin that kick up the :censored:

& had an average season last year would people be so upset at his departure & would people be having a go at Rafa for forcing him to leave almost

i doubt it

by **fergieisawhiskeynosedtw@t** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:30 am

as a manager in a call centre (I know completely different scale but hear me out) I get sick and tired of people who are earning good money wanting you to wipe their :censored:

day in day out (especially at a time of recession).

but asking someone to miss out on witnessing the birth of their son (especially if it was his first?) is very harsh (forget how much they earn it makes no difference if your on 4 million a year or 4k speaking from experience it was the best day of my life so I sympathise with Alonso).

Perhaps it could have been comunicated better perhaps?

I do agree with Rafa in that he is not here to manage ego's hence the revolving door departure of Keano!

by **dawson99** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:34 am

Rafas a cold manager, im not saying that's bad, but he is. just read the stevie biog to see this...
he's not the hugging type, evebn after winning the CL final he was writing away, finding ways to improove, hes a perfectionist

by **Effes** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:50 am

bigmick wrote:So anyway I've heard the way Rafa is talking up Masherano as of now, he's given Torres the new deal and generally he's been more gushing IMHO than previously about certain members of the squad.

Mick,

1) I think Rafa has to keep Masha sweet - if anything, Rafa is the one in the tight spot here.
After losing Alonso and replacing him with someone who isn't available til October - he would be
up sh!t creek if Mascha threw a wobbler.

I don't take it as genuinely talking someone up.

2) The bank made LFC give Torres the new deal.

3) I don't think he has been "more gushing" to be honest.

I think this is one your threads that you start before you go to bed; so you can get up and think
"Right, let's see what replies Ive had"

by **mistyred** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:12 am

I hope Spearing has his balls intact for the next month, Rafa may well call
on him sooner rather than later.

If he does time to step up lad we need a genuine local lad to come through
the ranks again.

by **bigmick** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:18 am

Effes wrote:I think this is one your threads that you start before you go to bed; so you can get up and think
"Right, let's see what replies Ive had"

You know me too well Eff

by **Sabre** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:39 pm

It's really difficult to give an opinion about the topic of this thread from our position. From one side you hear that the relationship between Alonso and Rafa started to deteriorate in the incident of the son, from other sources from the player's close people they tell you it comes from long ago.

I say it's difficult because we only know details that come to the surface, but it does seem that Rafa seems to be talking more sweet things about some players as of late.

I'm not sure if Rafa did a mistake in the case of Alonso, to be honest. It does seem it was a mistake the Keane case, because if the player was so píssed off in a few months at the club, it seems that could have been avoided if before signing Rafa and Keane had a good chat about how was going to be the life at Liverpool.

So, I'm sure Rafa has done some mistakes in the past (not necessarily the Alonso one, I'm thinking more in cases like Crouch), also some succesess like having our captain happy and managing Torres' adaptation well, but it's really difficult to me to say if his man management has changed as of late, because we only see the top of the iceberg. For what is worth, if in 2 years we have won a league and we have Mascherano, Gerrard, Torres, I'll consider Rafa's man management fantastic. If in the other hand we get dissapointing results and we have players like Torres seeking to leave the club like Alonso, then I'll have to admit that something went terribly wrong.

I know it's a obvious opinion, but here if we don't say the obvious we are just speculating with the little info we have.

by **REDTILLDEAD** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:25 pm

Well he didn't have a clue today?....how can he start with babel and leave yossi on the bench?...and how anyone can spend £20 mill on a 'crock' and not replace alonso is beyound me?...by the time this aqualina is fit the title will be out of sight!. :down:

by **The_Rock** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:49 am

I think we can safely concur that after 5 years here...."Man-mangement" will never be benitez's "cup of tea". This is his character......it is inside his DNA. He won't change.

Lets just pick up his "man-mangement" these past few weeks ..

He played up lucas as some sort of god during the pre-season.....has lucas really stepped up ?

He tells the whole world that aqua man offers more than alonso...and that aqua man has a better final ball than alonso. Guess what the players will be thinking now ? If Benitez playdown the contribution of a player who was close to him previously, what will stop him from doing this to them in future .....

Telling the whole world the a professional footballer like mascherano can be easily manipulated to join barcelona by a troll like messi ...? What is he trying to pull of here ?

by **Dundalk** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:21 am

He may be many things but mam management is not one of Rafas strong points. HE appears to be a stone cold business man, getting the job done that's all that matters. Gerrard said it before that all he ever wanted was a 'well done' from Rafa. He has had some success with his system so far but some players do need and arm around them, we are all different. I dont think he will change, its the type of person he is

by **redbeergoggles** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:24 pm

bigmick wrote:This is not a Rafa bashing topic starter. Just to reiterate, this is not a topic where the intention is to bash Rafa in any way.

The point is this. It appears from admittedly hearsay but plenty of it, that sometime around the time Xabi Alonso wanted to miss a European match to be at the birth of his son, his relationship with Rafa began to deteriorate. I actually agree with Rafa on this one to be honest. This modern trend to down tools in the middle of whatever you're doing so you can be there at the birth is all very well, but surely there has to be some responsibility to the club and the fans when you are earning 3 or 4 million quid a year? Anyway rafa didn't like it, and from then on you kind of got the feeling that the writing was on the wall as far as Xabi was concerned.

There have been other managers who have had the "my way or the highway" approach, and to my mind there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. There is only one manager, and what he says goes.

All that said, there has to IMHO be a relationship between a manager and a player which goes beyond the "I'm the manager, you're the player". At least there does in modern football if you are trying to keep hold of absolutely top class players and you are unable to pay absolutely top class wages, which it appears that we aren't. Reading from the comments from the manager, we came perilously close to losing BOTH of our first choice central midfielders this Summer, and it remains to be seen whther Masherano will be able to overcome his disappointment (WTF ) at "having" to stay at Liverpool and missing out on his move to a "Massive club".

So anyway I've heard the way Rafa is talking up Masherano as of now, he's given Torres the new deal and generally he's been more gushing IMHO than previously about certain members of the squad. I think we are gradually seeing an acceptance by the manager that perhaps he has to work harder at his relationships with the players given these turbulent financial times at the club. It doesn't necessarily mean he was wrong before, but perhaps there is some evolution going on in terms of attitude, and like Ferguson apparently not throwing cups of tea anymore, it's probably a change which has been forced upon him by circumstance to some extent.

I think Mick its a given that in today's modern game a manager needs to pander to a players needs ,players these days are more susceptible to the rigours of everyday life ,and if they fall out of favour with the fans or in this case the manager, then they need to be pampered and placed in a little warm blanket of security..

Its a sad state of affairs when managers are not allowed to exert any form of control over a player to avoid the obligatory rattle being thrown from the pram ,a point in case would be Man City's relentless pursuit of Lescott and how Moyes is being undermined behind the scenes by the board .

It seems player power and the greed of the agent behind them is becoming all to apparent in today's game ,so Rafa has had to be a tad more coy in his handling of certain situations ,but I still wouldn't say his stance has changed that drastically .

by **bigmick** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:57 pm

I thought I was spotting subtle differences, but then I read LFC2007's quote of the pre match interview for Stoke. Here Rafa talked about the "Spanish players" and the confederations cup, and "Dossena". Subtle I know, but I feel sure Ferguson would talk about "Gary", "Wayne", "Djimitar", while Wenger would ponder over "Cesc" or "Gael".

Once again before someone starts bubbling foam at the mouth, I'm not criticising Rafa for not calling a player by their first name, nor am I saying if he had referred more often to "Xabi" rather than "Alonso" that our midfield man would have seen out his contract.

by **kazza** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:44 am

So what are you saying

by **bigmick** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:10 am

kazza wrote:So what are you saying

My point (not very well made granted) was that perhaps it was all in my imagination that Rafa is slightly softening his relationships with the players, or if he is it's by the tiniest of degrees.

It's somethign which all managers are increasingly having to get used to though. Rightly or wrongly the players hold the balance of power, and be it an "arm around the shoulder" or a bit of ego boosting now and then, all the most successful managers have to do it in this day and age, even Rafa.

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