Liverpool FC Forum

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:33 pm

aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Why not ace?

well... simple answer is because i dont think hes good enough to be scoring many goals consistently... he doesnt create chances for himself and i doubt the ball would fall 5yards out for him 15 times next season... simples

Didn't stop Van Nistlerooy, did it?

Van Nistelrooy is a striker though... scoring goals is what hes expected to do and he did that to great effect consistently... He had a very good first touch and could turn on the ball as good as anyone on his day... Kuyts a winger....

All credit to him for getting himself in the positions he did and getting the goals but surely we need that extra bit of creativity from him when playing the small sides where spaces for him to sneak into are nonexistant.. its not in his game, hes not a natural winger..etc etc we all know that... but it doesnt make the point made irrelevant or insignificant..

Towards the end of last season he did well.. before that he was average at best... 2 seasons ago playing striker for half the season and right winger for the other half he only managed 3 or so goals in the league ? whos to say he wont have a similar scoring record by the same token ?

Kuyt has scored 40 goals in 147 appearances - 1 in 3.7.

Name me another winger who betters that, save for the diving ponce Real broke the bank for.

you're not replying to my post but anyways..

to respond to what you said, he actually only scored 34 goals for us from what i know... 2008/2009 -14, 2007/2008 -6. 2006/2007 -14.. so its closer 1 in 4.something games or whatever...

but anyways... whats your point ? that we cant do better ? that hes the best winger because of his scoring record ? I can name you 15 wingers id take ahead of him, whether they have better scoring records or not im not sure.. Remeber we had Cisse playing a similar role to Kuyts before he left ? he had a better scoring record than Kuyt did, didnt he ? why didnt people want him playing there anymore ?

Because he was a lazy bag of sh*t who was more concerned about his hairstyle than the club.

Which of your "points" would you like me to address? You said Kuyt is a winger, so I provided his scoring record for us and told you to find a winger with a better strike-rate.

You failed. Shock-horror.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:40 pm

s@int wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Why not ace?

well... simple answer is because i dont think hes good enough to be scoring many goals consistently... he doesnt create chances for himself and i doubt the ball would fall 5yards out for him 15 times next season... simples

Didn't stop Van Nistlerooy, did it?

Van Nistelrooy is a striker though... scoring goals is what hes expected to do and he did that to great effect consistently... He had a very good first touch and could turn on the ball as good as anyone on his day... Kuyts a winger....

All credit to him for getting himself in the positions he did and getting the goals but surely we need that extra bit of creativity from him when playing the small sides where spaces for him to sneak into are nonexistant.. its not in his game, hes not a natural winger..etc etc we all know that... but it doesnt make the point made irrelevant or insignificant..

Towards the end of last season he did well.. before that he was average at best... 2 seasons ago playing striker for half the season and right winger for the other half he only managed 3 or so goals in the league ? whos to say he wont have a similar scoring record by the same token ?

Kuyt has scored 40 goals in 147 appearances - 1 in 3.7.

Name me another winger who betters that, save for the diving ponce Real broke the bank for.

Many of those goals he scored playing up front Lando, its only really last season and maybe less than half the season before that he has been playing right mid.

Benayoun has played 52 games and scored 20 goals 1 in 2.5

So now a player's ability to play more than one position is a DOWNSIDE. Well I never...

I seem to recall there being something of a discussion on here about why Kuyt never scored when upfront, yet banged the goals in on the right. In fact, I'm pretty confident that you yourself remarked upon it.

As we are only counting goals scored from the right wing, Benayoun is obviously sh*tter than sh*t and should be sold immediately.

by **bigmick** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:49 pm

Not for the first time recently Lando, you've completely baffled me here. If you are going to compare Kuyt's scoring record to other right wingers, then surely you can see that comparing only matches where he's played on the right (effectively like for like) makes any sense

What really has got me is not that you chose not to do that, but why? His record in goalscoring terms from the right is bound to be pretty good after last season, so why not just find out those stats if you wish to go down that route?

This "play in more than position" stuff though is just being silly. It's like comparing Kuyt's goalscoring record to a bloke who plays up top every game, it's obviously not reasonable as he is by definition less likely to score from out on the wing.

Look, lets try and be objective and reasonable just for once. kuyt had a great season last season, and as you say he outscored every wideman with the exception of Ronaldo. As a front player however, he was a glaring failure (which is why we decided to give him a bash on the right in the first place). In itself, his prowess or otherwise as a front player is irrelevent however, as I suspect for the rest of his career he will play predominanatly down the right.

On the right side of midfield though, compared to pretty much anyone other than Ronaldo and based on last season, he carries a very significant goal threat.

by **aCe'** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:05 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Why not ace?

well... simple answer is because i dont think hes good enough to be scoring many goals consistently... he doesnt create chances for himself and i doubt the ball would fall 5yards out for him 15 times next season... simples

Didn't stop Van Nistlerooy, did it?

Van Nistelrooy is a striker though... scoring goals is what hes expected to do and he did that to great effect consistently... He had a very good first touch and could turn on the ball as good as anyone on his day... Kuyts a winger....

All credit to him for getting himself in the positions he did and getting the goals but surely we need that extra bit of creativity from him when playing the small sides where spaces for him to sneak into are nonexistant.. its not in his game, hes not a natural winger..etc etc we all know that... but it doesnt make the point made irrelevant or insignificant..

Towards the end of last season he did well.. before that he was average at best... 2 seasons ago playing striker for half the season and right winger for the other half he only managed 3 or so goals in the league ? whos to say he wont have a similar scoring record by the same token ?

Kuyt has scored 40 goals in 147 appearances - 1 in 3.7.

Name me another winger who betters that, save for the diving ponce Real broke the bank for.

you're not replying to my post but anyways..

to respond to what you said, he actually only scored 34 goals for us from what i know... 2008/2009 -14, 2007/2008 -6. 2006/2007 -14.. so its closer 1 in 4.something games or whatever...

but anyways... whats your point ? that we cant do better ? that hes the best winger because of his scoring record ? I can name you 15 wingers id take ahead of him, whether they have better scoring records or not im not sure.. Remeber we had Cisse playing a similar role to Kuyts before he left ? he had a better scoring record than Kuyt did, didnt he ? why didnt people want him playing there anymore ?

Because he was a lazy bag of sh*t who was more concerned about his hairstyle than the club.

Which of your "points" would you like me to address? You said Kuyt is a winger, so I provided his scoring record for us and told you to find a winger with a better strike-rate.

You failed. Shock-horror.

Kuyt had the best goalscoring record of all wingers in the world last season.. ok ?! lets put this behind us now...

few things you might want to consider though...

-Cisse who was a lazy fcker scored 17 playing mostly down the right wing for us, my point in mentioning this is pointing out that goals arent everything, we scored the most goals in the league yet still fell short in the league.. so what if Kuyt scored 14 goals last season ? Personally i dont expect him to do anywhere near as well next season... the 11 or so goals he scored from inside the 6yard box last season only go to show that if things dont fall his way then he probably wouldnt be scoring as many because quite honestly he has no skills to be creating any chances for himself... Probably end up scoring 5 or so goals like he did in 07/08 despite playing as a forward for half the season...

- Our main problem, for the millionth time, isnt the amount of goals we score, its more the ability to break down certain sides who approach games in a certain way.. What you'd expect from wingers and midfielders in such games would be creating chances and breaking down defenses... Kuyt does very little if anything to aid the cause.. The spaces he runs into to get his tap ins are usually not there against such sides .. what you get from Kuyt in such games is hard work, defensive cover and a whole lot of attacking moves that break down when he gets on the ball.. Doesnt stretch defenses, doesnt get behind fullbacks, doesnt try any sort of through ball to get someone through...

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:10 pm

bigmick wrote:Not for the first time recently Lando, you've completely baffled me here. If you are going to compare Kuyt's scoring record to other right wingers, then surely you can see that comparing only matches where he's played on the right (effectively like for like) makes any sense What really has got me is not that you chose not to do that, but why? His record in goalscoring terms from the right is bound to be pretty good after last season, so why not just find out those stats if you wish to go down that route?

This "play in more than position" stuff though is just being silly. It's like comparing Kuyt's goalscoring record to a bloke who plays up top every game, it's obviously not reasonable as he is by definition less likely to score from out on the wing.

Look, lets try and be objective and reasonable just for once. kuyt had a great season last season, and as you say he outscored every wideman with the exception of Ronaldo. As a front player however, he was a glaring failure (which is why we decided to give him a bash on the right in the first place). In itself, his prowess or otherwise as a front player is irrelevent however, as I suspect for the rest of his career he will play predominanatly down the right.

On the right side of midfield though, compared to pretty much anyone other than Ronaldo and based on last season, he carries a very significant goal threat.

I was taking the p*ss, wasn't I? I said "if we're only counting goals scored from the right, Benayoun is sh*tter than sh*t..." - it's called sarcasm. I understand that you may find that a difficult concept to grapple with, but I would appreciate it if you actually took the time to acknowledge what is an integral part of the English language.

My point, cretin, was that Kuyt was ridiculed FOR NOT SCORING UP FRONT, so how can your partner in crime suggest that most of his goals were scored from that position? (And how can he then compare someone who seldom plays that position?)

Is it because it fits the anti-Kuyt regime? Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't?

Let me draw you back to my original question, so that you can re-evaluate your buddies' rescue-plan: To paraphrase; "Name me a winger with a better goals-to-game ratio."

Now - knowing that all you "fans" have been so dismissive of Kuyt as a striker in the past, and have mockingly lauded his improved goal ratio from the wing - why, oh why do you feel the need to stick your brown nose into this little debate just to try and belittle me once again?

Answer me that, oh all-seeing all-doing Great One.

If you lot want to butter your muffins with the curd of each others' bitterness - that is your problem. The sooner you accept Kuyt is an important part of our team and he was one of our best performers last season, the sooner this whole sorry state of affairs can be put to bed. It's beyond tiresome.

Come on - say it with me; "Dirk Kuyt is an important and valued member of our 1st team."

Go on - you know you want to...

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:17 pm

aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Why not ace?

well... simple answer is because i dont think hes good enough to be scoring many goals consistently... he doesnt create chances for himself and i doubt the ball would fall 5yards out for him 15 times next season... simples

Didn't stop Van Nistlerooy, did it?

Van Nistelrooy is a striker though... scoring goals is what hes expected to do and he did that to great effect consistently... He had a very good first touch and could turn on the ball as good as anyone on his day... Kuyts a winger....

All credit to him for getting himself in the positions he did and getting the goals but surely we need that extra bit of creativity from him when playing the small sides where spaces for him to sneak into are nonexistant.. its not in his game, hes not a natural winger..etc etc we all know that... but it doesnt make the point made irrelevant or insignificant..

Towards the end of last season he did well.. before that he was average at best... 2 seasons ago playing striker for half the season and right winger for the other half he only managed 3 or so goals in the league ? whos to say he wont have a similar scoring record by the same token ?

Kuyt has scored 40 goals in 147 appearances - 1 in 3.7.

Name me another winger who betters that, save for the diving ponce Real broke the bank for.

you're not replying to my post but anyways..

to respond to what you said, he actually only scored 34 goals for us from what i know... 2008/2009 -14, 2007/2008 -6. 2006/2007 -14.. so its closer 1 in 4.something games or whatever...

but anyways... whats your point ? that we cant do better ? that hes the best winger because of his scoring record ? I can name you 15 wingers id take ahead of him, whether they have better scoring records or not im not sure.. Remeber we had Cisse playing a similar role to Kuyts before he left ? he had a better scoring record than Kuyt did, didnt he ? why didnt people want him playing there anymore ?

Because he was a lazy bag of sh*t who was more concerned about his hairstyle than the club.

Which of your "points" would you like me to address? You said Kuyt is a winger, so I provided his scoring record for us and told you to find a winger with a better strike-rate.

You failed. Shock-horror.

Kuyt had the best goalscoring record of all wingers in the world last season.. ok ?! lets put this behind us now...

few things you might want to consider though...

-Cisse who was a lazy fcker scored 17 playing mostly down the right wing for us, my point in mentioning this is pointing out that goals arent everything, we scored the most goals in the league yet still fell short in the league.. so what if Kuyt scored 14 goals last season ? Personally i dont expect him to do anywhere near as well next season... the 11 or so goals he scored from inside the 6yard box last season only go to show that if things dont fall his way then he probably wouldnt be scoring as many because quite honestly he has no skills to be creating any chances for himself... Probably end up scoring 5 or so goals like he did in 07/08 despite playing as a forward for half the season...

- Our main problem, for the millionth time, isnt the amount of goals we score, its more the ability to break down certain sides who approach games in a certain way.. What you'd expect from wingers and midfielders in such games would be creating chances and breaking down defenses... Kuyt does very little if anything to aid the cause.. The spaces he runs into to get his tap ins are usually not there against such sides .. what you get from Kuyt in such games is hard work, defensive cover and a whole lot of attacking moves that break down when he gets on the ball.. Doesnt stretch defenses, doesnt get behind fullbacks, doesnt try any sort of through ball to get someone through...

Because, ningkompoop, goals are the only way to win a match.

I'll level with you - I can't be bothered to read any more of your post. Any div who can't see the importance of scoring and creating goals in an attacking position is nothing short of a complete idiot.

I've better things to do with my time than lead a rat to water only to find that it is too stupid to drink.

by **aCe'** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:22 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:The sooner you accept Kuyt is an important part of our team and he was one of our best performers last season, the sooner this whole sorry state of affairs can be put to bed. It's beyond tiresome.

Dont think anyone argued against that in the first place...
His goals were vital to our achievements of last season.
Hes the best option we have down the right in most games.
He had a very good season last time around by all standards.

Those points were never disputed by anyone as far as i know...
Question that started the whole thing was whether hed be able to score as many as helast time around did NEXT season ...

simple answer to that imo is no...

He hasnt shown in 3 years that he has it in him to score OR create for all that matter consistently.. fact that he had a good season last time around is no proof thats he that goal machine some try to make him out to be...

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:24 pm

Oh, and just to put this firmly to bed - Dirk Kuyt created the 2nd highest amount of goals last season - he was only beaten by Gerrard.

But I guess they were all miss-kicks, right?

by **aCe'** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:30 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Why not ace?

well... simple answer is because i dont think hes good enough to be scoring many goals consistently... he doesnt create chances for himself and i doubt the ball would fall 5yards out for him 15 times next season... simples

Didn't stop Van Nistlerooy, did it?

Van Nistelrooy is a striker though... scoring goals is what hes expected to do and he did that to great effect consistently... He had a very good first touch and could turn on the ball as good as anyone on his day... Kuyts a winger....

All credit to him for getting himself in the positions he did and getting the goals but surely we need that extra bit of creativity from him when playing the small sides where spaces for him to sneak into are nonexistant.. its not in his game, hes not a natural winger..etc etc we all know that... but it doesnt make the point made irrelevant or insignificant..

Towards the end of last season he did well.. before that he was average at best... 2 seasons ago playing striker for half the season and right winger for the other half he only managed 3 or so goals in the league ? whos to say he wont have a similar scoring record by the same token ?

Kuyt has scored 40 goals in 147 appearances - 1 in 3.7.

Name me another winger who betters that, save for the diving ponce Real broke the bank for.

you're not replying to my post but anyways..

to respond to what you said, he actually only scored 34 goals for us from what i know... 2008/2009 -14, 2007/2008 -6. 2006/2007 -14.. so its closer 1 in 4.something games or whatever...

but anyways... whats your point ? that we cant do better ? that hes the best winger because of his scoring record ? I can name you 15 wingers id take ahead of him, whether they have better scoring records or not im not sure.. Remeber we had Cisse playing a similar role to Kuyts before he left ? he had a better scoring record than Kuyt did, didnt he ? why didnt people want him playing there anymore ?

Because he was a lazy bag of sh*t who was more concerned about his hairstyle than the club.

Which of your "points" would you like me to address? You said Kuyt is a winger, so I provided his scoring record for us and told you to find a winger with a better strike-rate.

You failed. Shock-horror.

Kuyt had the best goalscoring record of all wingers in the world last season.. ok ?! lets put this behind us now...

few things you might want to consider though...

-Cisse who was a lazy fcker scored 17 playing mostly down the right wing for us, my point in mentioning this is pointing out that goals arent everything, we scored the most goals in the league yet still fell short in the league.. so what if Kuyt scored 14 goals last season ? Personally i dont expect him to do anywhere near as well next season... the 11 or so goals he scored from inside the 6yard box last season only go to show that if things dont fall his way then he probably wouldnt be scoring as many because quite honestly he has no skills to be creating any chances for himself... Probably end up scoring 5 or so goals like he did in 07/08 despite playing as a forward for half the season...

- Our main problem, for the millionth time, isnt the amount of goals we score, its more the ability to break down certain sides who approach games in a certain way.. What you'd expect from wingers and midfielders in such games would be creating chances and breaking down defenses... Kuyt does very little if anything to aid the cause.. The spaces he runs into to get his tap ins are usually not there against such sides .. what you get from Kuyt in such games is hard work, defensive cover and a whole lot of attacking moves that break down when he gets on the ball.. Doesnt stretch defenses, doesnt get behind fullbacks, doesnt try any sort of through ball to get someone through...

Because, ningkompoop, goals are the only way to win a match.

I'll level with you - I can't be bothered to read any more of your post. Any div who can't see the importance of scoring and creating goals in an attacking position is nothing short of a complete idiot.

I've better things to do with my time than lead a rat to water only to find that it is too stupid to drink.

ah great.. im getting told by a parrot whos only arguments are "name one winger who would scored more goals" and "Kuyt had a good season last time around"...

Last season is over Lando and no one is going to argue against his stats from last season so thanks for pointing out that he scored 14 goals and created a sht load aswell so if thats all you have to say on the matter then job well done ...

Didnt think you had it in you putting up a good argument anyways...

by **Reg** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:31 pm

Owzat wrote:
s@int wrote:Benayoun has played 52 games and scored 20 goals 1 in 2.5

52 games? I have him down as having played 89 games for us so perhaps you are talking about starts.

Statto's back and makes an immediate impact.

Welcome back mate.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:32 pm

aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Why not ace?

well... simple answer is because i dont think hes good enough to be scoring many goals consistently... he doesnt create chances for himself and i doubt the ball would fall 5yards out for him 15 times next season... simples

Didn't stop Van Nistlerooy, did it?

Van Nistelrooy is a striker though... scoring goals is what hes expected to do and he did that to great effect consistently... He had a very good first touch and could turn on the ball as good as anyone on his day... Kuyts a winger....

All credit to him for getting himself in the positions he did and getting the goals but surely we need that extra bit of creativity from him when playing the small sides where spaces for him to sneak into are nonexistant.. its not in his game, hes not a natural winger..etc etc we all know that... but it doesnt make the point made irrelevant or insignificant..

Towards the end of last season he did well.. before that he was average at best... 2 seasons ago playing striker for half the season and right winger for the other half he only managed 3 or so goals in the league ? whos to say he wont have a similar scoring record by the same token ?

Kuyt has scored 40 goals in 147 appearances - 1 in 3.7.

Name me another winger who betters that, save for the diving ponce Real broke the bank for.

you're not replying to my post but anyways..

to respond to what you said, he actually only scored 34 goals for us from what i know... 2008/2009 -14, 2007/2008 -6. 2006/2007 -14.. so its closer 1 in 4.something games or whatever...

but anyways... whats your point ? that we cant do better ? that hes the best winger because of his scoring record ? I can name you 15 wingers id take ahead of him, whether they have better scoring records or not im not sure.. Remeber we had Cisse playing a similar role to Kuyts before he left ? he had a better scoring record than Kuyt did, didnt he ? why didnt people want him playing there anymore ?

Because he was a lazy bag of sh*t who was more concerned about his hairstyle than the club.

Which of your "points" would you like me to address? You said Kuyt is a winger, so I provided his scoring record for us and told you to find a winger with a better strike-rate.

You failed. Shock-horror.

Kuyt had the best goalscoring record of all wingers in the world last season.. ok ?! lets put this behind us now...

few things you might want to consider though...

-Cisse who was a lazy fcker scored 17 playing mostly down the right wing for us, my point in mentioning this is pointing out that goals arent everything, we scored the most goals in the league yet still fell short in the league.. so what if Kuyt scored 14 goals last season ? Personally i dont expect him to do anywhere near as well next season... the 11 or so goals he scored from inside the 6yard box last season only go to show that if things dont fall his way then he probably wouldnt be scoring as many because quite honestly he has no skills to be creating any chances for himself... Probably end up scoring 5 or so goals like he did in 07/08 despite playing as a forward for half the season...

- Our main problem, for the millionth time, isnt the amount of goals we score, its more the ability to break down certain sides who approach games in a certain way.. What you'd expect from wingers and midfielders in such games would be creating chances and breaking down defenses... Kuyt does very little if anything to aid the cause.. The spaces he runs into to get his tap ins are usually not there against such sides .. what you get from Kuyt in such games is hard work, defensive cover and a whole lot of attacking moves that break down when he gets on the ball.. Doesnt stretch defenses, doesnt get behind fullbacks, doesnt try any sort of through ball to get someone through...

Because, ningkompoop, goals are the only way to win a match.

I'll level with you - I can't be bothered to read any more of your post. Any div who can't see the importance of scoring and creating goals in an attacking position is nothing short of a complete idiot.

I've better things to do with my time than lead a rat to water only to find that it is too stupid to drink.

ah great.. im getting told by a parrot whos only arguments are "name one winger who would scored more goals" and "Kuyt had a good season last time around"...

Last season is over Lando and no one is going to argue against his stats from last season so thanks for pointing out that he scored 14 goals and created a sht load aswell so if thats all you have to say on the matter then job well done ...

Didnt think you had it in you putting up a good argument anyways...

How can you argue with stats, you stupid boy?

Stamping your feet gets you nowhere. You said he isn't good enough - I proved you wrong.

Now be quiet, you silly person.

by **bigmick** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:49 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:I was taking the p*ss, wasn't I? I said "if we're only counting goals scored from the right, Benayoun is sh*tter than sh*t..." - it's called sarcasm. I understand that you may find that a difficult concept to grapple with, but I would appreciate it if you actually took the time to acknowledge what is an integral part of the English language.

My point, cretin, was that Kuyt was ridiculed FOR NOT SCORING UP FRONT, so how can your partner in crime suggest that most of his goals were scored from that position? (And how can he then compare someone who seldom plays that position?)

Is it because it fits the anti-Kuyt regime? Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't?

Let me draw you back to my original question, so that you can re-evaluate your buddies' rescue-plan: To paraphrase; "Name me a winger with a better goals-to-game ratio."

Now - knowing that all you "fans" have been so dismissive of Kuyt as a striker in the past, and have mockingly lauded his improved goal ratio from the wing - why, oh why do you feel the need to stick your brown nose into this little debate just to try and belittle me once again?

Answer me that, oh all-seeing all-doing Great One.

If you lot want to butter your muffins with the curd of each others' bitterness - that is your problem. The sooner you accept Kuyt is an important part of our team and he was one of our best performers last season, the sooner this whole sorry state of affairs can be put to bed. It's beyond tiresome.

Come on - say it with me; "Dirk Kuyt is an important and valued member of our 1st team."

Go on - you know you want to...

What an odd reply. You open with the old "it was only sarcasm angle" then you finish it with asking me to "admit" that Kuyt was/is an important and valued member of the first team, despite the fact that I've been saying that consisitently for a long time. In the middle, you go for the customary abuse but "cretin" is fairly mild and no bother in any case.

Anyway, to take the points one at a time.

Yes, sarcasm is a crucial part of the English language and pivotal to humourous banter. I agree.

On the question of Kuyts goals, why don't you just post up the stats of how many he scored up front, and how many he's scored from the right if it's so important? I was only trying to help you out, as I think you were trying to argue the point that Kuyt is a good right midfielder (which he is). Surely it would suit your argument better to discount the front player stuff, because as anyone with any idea at all knows, he wasn't very successful there.

Then you go on to paraphrase with the killer question "name me a winger with a better goals to game ratio". I think you must have forgotten the "except Ronaldo" bit on the end, and assuming you did, based on last season well you've got me because I suspect Dirk was best of the rest.

Then there is "fans" in the old inverted commas thing, the old "if you don't agree with me you're not a real fan" chestnut. Can't argue with that, nor the "brown nose" thing. And I'm not trying to "belittle" you at all, I posted up a sensible and coherent post which was actually quite supportive of where you were coming from and got called a cretin, so here I'm just answering the points raised.

The bit that surprised me most out of the whole debate was your point that Kuyt was second only to Gerrard in assists. That's an impressive stat, and I can't understand why you didn't introduce it into the debate earlier, I would have even though I don't go a bundle on stats. in many ways, it may even go someway towards explaining why Alonso is house hunting in Madrid right now instead of trying to get fit to win the league in England. Our creative midfielder out-assisted by Dirk on the right means that Rafa is probably on the money in his desire to replace Alonso, and equally on the money in his belief that Xabi's contribution was vastly overstated.

Though your post was odd, it did raise some interesting points as yours generally do.

Just to repeat as well, Dirk is a very important member of our first team. Hope that's cleared that one up.

by **bigmick** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:31 am

Anyway while all that's being pondered, I'd like to say that this "dispute" between me and Lando has gone on too long. Sabre told me off last week for my posting style and he was right. To come back to what Lando said about me trying to "belittle" him, I wasn't and aren't, although I accept that's how it reads sometimes. I don't go for abuse, I tend to fall back when under fire onto what I consider to be my strongest area, which is football and the nuances of it. From there I feel I can defend my postion and myself under fire the best I can, but I haven't done it as well as I'm able.

Anyway, I'm cutting a long story long again, so suffice to say Lando is a genuine Liverpool supporter and I've no doubt a genuine nice fella in the flesh as well, and "belittling" him is the last thing that should be or is on my mind. All genuine Liverpool fans should be allowed on here and should be entitled to have their views respected, and I've not done that always with Lando and I'm sorry for that. Doesn't mean we'll agree on much, but I can debate better and I will.

I say this and will stick to it regardless of what Lando's response to either it or me is. I'll still disagree, but I'll try and do it better.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:45 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
s@int wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Why not ace?

well... simple answer is because i dont think hes good enough to be scoring many goals consistently... he doesnt create chances for himself and i doubt the ball would fall 5yards out for him 15 times next season... simples

Didn't stop Van Nistlerooy, did it?

Van Nistelrooy is a striker though... scoring goals is what hes expected to do and he did that to great effect consistently... He had a very good first touch and could turn on the ball as good as anyone on his day... Kuyts a winger....

All credit to him for getting himself in the positions he did and getting the goals but surely we need that extra bit of creativity from him when playing the small sides where spaces for him to sneak into are nonexistant.. its not in his game, hes not a natural winger..etc etc we all know that... but it doesnt make the point made irrelevant or insignificant..

Towards the end of last season he did well.. before that he was average at best... 2 seasons ago playing striker for half the season and right winger for the other half he only managed 3 or so goals in the league ? whos to say he wont have a similar scoring record by the same token ?

Kuyt has scored 40 goals in 147 appearances - 1 in 3.7.

Name me another winger who betters that, save for the diving ponce Real broke the bank for.

Many of those goals he scored playing up front Lando, its only really last season and maybe less than half the season before that he has been playing right mid.

Benayoun has played 52 games and scored 20 goals 1 in 2.5

So now a player's ability to play more than one position is a DOWNSIDE. Well I never...

I seem to recall there being something of a discussion on here about why Kuyt never scored when upfront, yet banged the goals in on the right. In fact, I'm pretty confident that you yourself remarked upon it.

As we are only counting goals scored from the right wing, Benayoun is obviously sh*tter than sh*t and should be sold immediately.

No its not a downside to have a player who can play in more than one position, but its wrong to include his goals scored while played as a striker when discussing his merits in another position.

I.E. Using your argument Owen would suddenly become the most prolific second striker in the league if you allowed for the goals he scored as a striker while played in a more creative role last season. Gerrard becomes the most prolific full back ever because he started his career as a full back.

No one is arguing that Kuyt didn't play well last season, the only argument was that Kuyt wasn't and isn't as important to the team as Gerrard and Torres...... no doubt you would like to add Alonso to that list ? :shifty

Kuyt struggled to score while up front, that doesn't mean he never scored, he just didn't score enough to maintain a position in the team as striker. I.E. 12 league goals while not great for a striker is good for a right midfielder. So while the 3 league goals he scored the preceeding season meant he wasn't good enough as a striker, a move out to the wing meant his lack of goals wasn't as big a problem.

by **maguskwt** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:47 am

well let's look at the cases of Xabi and Dirk according to some people on here...

Xabi creates or is creative but he doesn't score enough goals...

Dirk scores and assists but he's not creative...

Now there's a pattern isn't there? What do these people want? a feckin Diego Maradona or a Roberto Baggio?

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