Liverpool FC Forum

by **JoeTerp** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:48 am

Every where I turn, I read about how we need more goals from such and such a position.

Fullbacks didn't get forward enough and chip in

CBs didn't score enough from set pieces

Xabi needed to score more (and create more)

Reira needed to score more

Somehow, despite all of this, AND GERRARD AND TORRES barely playing together, we scored more goals than anybody in the competition, NINE more than United!! More than enough to win the league.

I don't see where this crying out for more goals is coming from.

by **Greavesie** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:49 am

I've just posted something about needing goals in another thread

by **Owzat** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:16 am

JoeTerp wrote:Every where I turn, I read about how we need more goals from such and such a position.

Fullbacks didn't get forward enough and chip in

CBs didn't score enough from set pieces

Xabi needed to score more (and create more)

Reira needed to score more

Somehow, despite all of this, AND GERRARD AND TORRES barely playing together, we scored more goals than anybody in the competition, NINE more than United!! More than enough to win the league.

I don't see where this crying out for more goals is coming from.

Yes, but our problem is we score them in fits and starts, not just when needed to sneak 1-0s,

And if goalscoring isn't a problem, how come we drew 11 games and didn't win the league? Because we didn't win most games and unless you think we can guarantee clean sheets, noone can, then scoring more goals MORE OFTEN is what we need. We managed 1-0 wins in the league just FOUR times, I wouldn't rest title hopes on that kind of record without changing more than just the RB and for one arguably weaker defensively (and no Hyypia anymore) No good winning 5-1 against Newcastle one (league) game then drawing with Stoke the next.

PREMIERSHIP GOALS 08/09

0 goals : P6 W0 D5 L1 F0 A2 PTS 5 (Won 0.00%)
1 goal : P9 W4 D4 L1 F9 A6 PTS 16 (Won 44.44%)
2 goals : P8 W7 D1 L0 F16 A4 PTS 22 (Won 87.50%)
3 goals : P10 W10 D0 L0 F30 A9 PTS 30 (Won 100.00%)
4 goals : P3 W2 D1 L0 F12 A5 PTS 7 (Won 66.67%)
5 goals : P2 W2 D0 L0 F10 A1 PTS 6 (Won 100.00%)

So 65 of out 86 points came when we scored 2+ goals, only once in our last 11 games did we draw and only once did we win 1-0. However nearly 1/3 of our games ended with us scoring 0 or 1 goals and we dropped TWENTY-FOUR points out of our 28 dropped points in those games. The mancs may have been somewhat lucky and won a heap of games 1-0, but do you want to switch the debate to our defending, the 4-4s and set-pieces?!? 2/7 of our goals came in just five games, 52 of the 77 goals (around 67%) came in just FIFTEEN games which is about 40% of the games.

By game 23 of the Premiership we'd scored 37 goals, the last 15 games we scored 40 - THAT'S what we need to keep up.

Games 01-23 : P23 PTS 48 F37 (PTS/GAME 2.09, GLS/GAME 1.61)
Games 24-38 : P15 PTS 38 F40 (PTS/GAME 2.53, GLS/GAME 2.67)

Anyway I can't believe someone is moaning because fans want to see MORE GOALS

You'd rather see, suffer through and hope we win 1-0 27+ times?

I think I'd rather rest my hopes on Kuyt, Gerrard, Torres and a new LWF scoring the bulk of 80+ goals than hope our defence is tighter than last season and keeps clean sheets just when we need it ie have only scored one goal

by **bigmick** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:27 am

It's a good topic starter, and a good answer from Owzat (great to see him back). He makes the point very well, that it's pointless being flat track bullies against Newcastle if someone can't score against Stoke. I actually think it goes deeper than just goals, I think we need a bit more invention then we'll get the goals. When the games are locked up, it shouldn't always have to be Gerrard and/or Torres who pulls us out of the shabbite, it should occasionally be other people too. Now I know some of his fanclub will point out that Dirk scored some vital goals at vital times last season and he did, but as I say I'm not talking about toe-poking it in from four yards, I'm talking about opening teams up with a bit of magic. Perhaps a drop of the shoulder, a dummy, a give and go, a dribble. Just something to make an opening occur.

Now I'm not by any means having a go at Kuyt here, because he isn't that sort of player. If you spend the game waiting for Kuyt to produce such things you are going to be disappointed often, that isn't his job to be fair. I'm really looking at people like Riera, and the other central midfielder, and a full back (Johnson). How many game breaking contributions did Riera make last season, how many did either of our full backs make, how often did a Vidic style headed goal from a centre back pull us out of the sh!te? Not many is the answer, and Kuyt is the only player other than Gerrard/Torres axis who is absolved simply because he did his bit and some in terms of goals scored.

Riera on the left, Johnson on the right, Aquilani through the centre and the centre backs from corners occasionally need to step up. If you've got six potential irons in the bag at all times rather than two, you've got more chance of finding the right club for the job when you need it.

by **JoeTerp** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:36 am

i am not saying I want to see less goals.

Clearly the problem AS YOU HAVE SAID, is not the total goals scored, its the spread of the goals. So when people say "so and so needs to chip in with more" that is a statement about our overall goals total, which is already fine.

Also, all this talk of "need to get somebody in to unlock the door against Stoke" (its always Stoke ,

I feel if we beat Stoke, whenever we play them it will bring a lot of confidence to the fans "well now that we can beat the likes of Stoke . . .

) ANyway my answer to that is "just play like we did at the end" didn't seem like we were missing the keymaster the last couple months of the season, so as long as we don't lose the keys and forget where we put them, I don't see why we shouldn't go gangbusters on this motha fkucin league

by **Espionage** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:42 am

Also we scored 77 goals compared to the other top 3 who all scored 68 each.

2.02 goals per game is fantastic. What we really need is ability to break down teams that set up defensively, and hopefully with Aquilani, Riera, Benayoun and Gerrard now we have a creative enough team.

Looking through [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_F.C._season_2008–09]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_F.C._season_2008–09[/url] A couple of things jump out at me here:
- It blows my mind that from 42 appearances (albeit a lot from subs) that Babel had a goal haul of 4
- Mascherano, Lucas and Alonso were way behind what you would expect. For the three of them 7 goals out of a combined 124 appearances

A few goals from Aquilani and a super sub (either Babel actually chipping in, El Zhar?, or someone new) would see us looking pretty good. We could still use a few goals from set pieces from Skrtyl and Agger.

by **Owzat** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:43 am

Agree bigmick, invention/creativity is lacking and was with a midfield five (if you like) of Mascherano, Alonso, Gerrard, Kuyt and Riera. That's part reason why I'd be ok with selling Mascherano, bring in someone with a bit more creativity and passing. That said Alonso didn't chip in as much as he could with either, not for his ability, while Gerrard's idea of creativity is to try and charge past the opposition, 1-2s or hollywood balls. Kuyt seemed to be improving with his creativity and crossing, but is not that creative - although he did play some good balls and show some vision. Riera showed in spells, no great end product and while "looking good" may impress some, for me you need an end product or you're a waste of space.

I have my doubts over Johnson, not convinced that is going to work out quite the way some Liverpool fans envisage. I think Rafa likes his defensive cover, last season's 77 goals scored surprised me a fair bit, but we still retained a relatively tight defence - less than 30 goals for the FOURTH year running. But despite that tight defence we keep only 20 clean sheets a season (over four) and draw on average TEN games a season (1 in 4)

And I think we all moaned at some point about who we drew with last season, home draws with Fulham, Stoke, Hull, citeh, bitters, Wet Sham. Only in ONE of those games did we concede more than one goal, we certainly should have scored at least two in each of them given the opposition. I'd love to see us win games with clean sheets, but I'd be even happier if we went out, looked to score goals and if we lost 2-3 maybe three to four times a season, it would be better than drawing half a dozen games 0-0 or 1-1. ie I'd take four wins and four defeats going (all out or near enough) for the win every time over eight draws, anyone with any sense would.

So fair point we scored more goals than any other team, but look where it got us. No good pointing to the mancs winning 1-0 nine times or whatever it was because if we could do that then how come we didn't? And how many games did we go in at half-time thinking we should have scored a lot more? It's not just the games where we fail to break teams down, it's also not making most of domination and that's not something our defence can do too much about.

by **stmichael** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:43 am

To be honest, with the exception of Lampard, no other central midfielder in the top 4 got anywhere near what you could describe as a decent return of goals. The Mancs central midfield is as weak as it's ever been imo. Carrick, Anderson, Scholes, Giggs and Fletcher probably scored about 8 goals between them last season. Their bonus is that they had Vidic at the back who offers far more of a goal threat than any of our centre backs, unless Agger pings in a 30 yarder at the fourth time of asking after finding his range.

Kuyt scored more goals than either Rooney or Berbatov in the League last season which just reinforces that even after an average season by his standards (if you can call 27 goals average) they are going to miss Ronaldo big style. Despite missing the first half of the season through injury he still scored more winning goals than any other player in the League. You would have to feel that Torres would have done the same had he been fit for more of the season. When he played he stilll scored winners against Sunderland, Chelsea, Portsmouth and the likes.

Kuyt and Benayoun scored 20 League goals between them last season and I'd be more than happy with that this time around. Riera needs to score more goals (should be looking at 8-10) and Mascherano should be looking at 5 minimum. Hell even Glen Johnson should be looking at scoring a few as he loves to get forward. This new lad Aquilani looks like a more attacking version of Alonso so expect him to score a few spectacular goals over the course of the season. He also takes a mean free kick. Lets hope to God that he can take a decent corner.

Anyway. goalscoring is the least of our problems this season. I'm more worried at the other end of the pitch, not necessarily with the personnel, but with whether or not they can all stay fit for the whole season. Last season our back four was constantly chopping and changing due to injuries and we suffered as a result.

by **Owzat** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:39 pm

Our defence is no worry, we drew 11 league games last season and in only two of those did we concede more than one goal. Only two defeats all season and those we scored only one goal in so I'd say scoring was more of a worry than conceding. I mean how many less than 27 are you thinking we should concede? And if we struggle to score then the best we can hope for is 1-0 which we managed just four times

by **stmichael** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:01 pm

Owzat wrote:Our defence is no worry, we drew 11 league games last season and in only two of those did we concede more than one goal. Only two defeats all season and those we scored only one goal in so I'd say scoring was more of a worry than conceding. I mean how many less than 27 are you thinking we should concede? And if we struggle to score then the best we can hope for is 1-0 which we managed just four times

I not worried about the defence per se, mainly because we have the best keeper in the league imo which inspires confidence.

I was just saying that with Carra not getting any younger, and with the injury problems that Agger and Skrtel have had in the last year, can you see us having a settled back four for a consistent run of games?

by **Owzat** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:07 pm

stmichael wrote:
Owzat wrote:Our defence is no worry, we drew 11 league games last season and in only two of those did we concede more than one goal. Only two defeats all season and those we scored only one goal in so I'd say scoring was more of a worry than conceding. I mean how many less than 27 are you thinking we should concede? And if we struggle to score then the best we can hope for is 1-0 which we managed just four times

I not worried about the defence per se, mainly because we have the best keeper in the league imo which inspires confidence.

I was just saying that with Carra not getting any younger, and with the injury problems that Agger and Skrtel have had in the last year, can you see us having a settled back four for a consistent run of games?

Did we last season?!? We had Dossena, Aurelio and Insua at LB, Carra, Skrtel, Sami and Agger at CB, Mascherano, Carra and Arbeloa at RB - hopefully that covers all the players we used in the back four (league)

So all things considered they did pretty well, still worried about set-pieces though as our defenders seem to be caught napping and while zonal marking may not be the worst system, I think some of our players either don't always apply it properly, go to sleep or use it as an excuse to not bother defending - must be one of those surely? If lazy marking was not such an issue maybe there'd be less criticism of the system.

by **stmichael** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:18 pm

Owzat wrote:
stmichael wrote:
Owzat wrote:Our defence is no worry, we drew 11 league games last season and in only two of those did we concede more than one goal. Only two defeats all season and those we scored only one goal in so I'd say scoring was more of a worry than conceding. I mean how many less than 27 are you thinking we should concede? And if we struggle to score then the best we can hope for is 1-0 which we managed just four times

I not worried about the defence per se, mainly because we have the best keeper in the league imo which inspires confidence.

I was just saying that with Carra not getting any younger, and with the injury problems that Agger and Skrtel have had in the last year, can you see us having a settled back four for a consistent run of games?

Did we last season?!? We had Dossena, Aurelio and Insua at LB, Carra, Skrtel, Sami and Agger at CB, Mascherano, Carra and Arbeloa at RB - hopefully that covers all the players we used in the back four (league)

So all things considered they did pretty well, still worried about set-pieces though as our defenders seem to be caught napping and while zonal marking may not be the worst system, I think some of our players either don't always apply it properly, go to sleep or use it as an excuse to not bother defending - must be one of those surely? If lazy marking was not such an issue maybe there'd be less criticism of the system.

i know what you mean but our defensive record will always be pretty decent as in 80% of the games we play we'll dominate possession of the football for long spells anyway. a lot of the goals we conceded last season were due to individual errors or poor postioning and marking as you say.

just back to the goalscoring though, i see that the premiership last season had less goals per games on average than ever before. it's a signal of how the modern game has changed that any striker who can reach double figures in the league now is considered goldust. anelka won the goldn boot last season with something like 18 goals where as go back 5-6 years and henry was scoring 30 a season.

keep torres fit for the whole season and he'll easily score 20 league goals imo.

by **Effes** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:23 pm

Owzat wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:Every where I turn, I read about how we need more goals from such and such a position.

Fullbacks didn't get forward enough and chip in

CBs didn't score enough from set pieces

Xabi needed to score more (and create more)

Reira needed to score more

Somehow, despite all of this, AND GERRARD AND TORRES barely playing together, we scored more goals than anybody in the competition, NINE more than United!! More than enough to win the league.

I don't see where this crying out for more goals is coming from.

Yes, but our problem is we score them in fits and starts, not just when needed to sneak 1-0s,

And if goalscoring isn't a problem, how come we drew 11 games and didn't win the league? Because we didn't win most games and unless you think we can guarantee clean sheets, noone can, then scoring more goals MORE OFTEN is what we need. We managed 1-0 wins in the league just FOUR times, I wouldn't rest title hopes on that kind of record without changing more than just the RB and for one arguably weaker defensively (and no Hyypia anymore) No good winning 5-1 against Newcastle one (league) game then drawing with Stoke the next.

PREMIERSHIP GOALS 08/09

0 goals : P6 W0 D5 L1 F0 A2 PTS 5 (Won 0.00%)
1 goal : P9 W4 D4 L1 F9 A6 PTS 16 (Won 44.44%)
2 goals : P8 W7 D1 L0 F16 A4 PTS 22 (Won 87.50%)
3 goals : P10 W10 D0 L0 F30 A9 PTS 30 (Won 100.00%)
4 goals : P3 W2 D1 L0 F12 A5 PTS 7 (Won 66.67%)
5 goals : P2 W2 D0 L0 F10 A1 PTS 6 (Won 100.00%)

So 65 of out 86 points came when we scored 2+ goals, only once in our last 11 games did we draw and only once did we win 1-0. However nearly 1/3 of our games ended with us scoring 0 or 1 goals and we dropped TWENTY-FOUR points out of our 28 dropped points in those games. The mancs may have been somewhat lucky and won a heap of games 1-0, but do you want to switch the debate to our defending, the 4-4s and set-pieces?!? 2/7 of our goals came in just five games, 52 of the 77 goals (around 67%) came in just FIFTEEN games which is about 40% of the games.

By game 23 of the Premiership we'd scored 37 goals, the last 15 games we scored 40 - THAT'S what we need to keep up.

Games 01-23 : P23 PTS 48 F37 (PTS/GAME 2.09, GLS/GAME 1.61)
Games 24-38 : P15 PTS 38 F40 (PTS/GAME 2.53, GLS/GAME 2.67)

Anyway I can't believe someone is moaning because fans want to see MORE GOALS You'd rather see, suffer through and hope we win 1-0 27+ times? I think I'd rather rest my hopes on Kuyt, Gerrard, Torres and a new LWF scoring the bulk of 80+ goals than hope our defence is tighter than last season and keeps clean sheets just when we need it ie have only scored one goal

Excellent post Owzat.

by **Emerald Red** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:25 pm

F*ck me, are people only noticing this now?

by **heimdall** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:30 pm

Interesting topic and I agree that the problem is not the amount of goals we score because when we are on fire we are really on fire, that has never really been a problem. the issue as correctly pointed out is that we far too easily run out of ideas some times and that is where teams like Chelsea, manure and Arsenal before they started to suck would always come out on top because in an attacking sense they've had far more options. Hopefully with the signing of Aquilani and with Johnson we will have more attacking vectors and should be able to crush teams like Stoke.

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