Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:37 am

Its time to stop making excuses

Here are the facts

1/ We have spent over £200million on players. Maybe not as much as we would have liked, but still a huge sum that most clubs would love to have spent.

2/ Rafa didn't come to a team full of cr@p players, yes we had some poor ones, but we also had some top class ones. Players who won trophies before he came and won trophies after he came. Why people feel they must denigrate past players and managers to make Rafa's achievements seem better is beyond me.

3/ Our gross spend is bigger than the mancs and so is our net spend since Rafa came. This varies season to season, but at the moment that is a fact.

4/Rafa has got a good squad of players, if we don't win the league its not the fault of a manager who left the club over 5 years ago.

5/Rafa was brought in as a manager who could win the league WITHOUT spending huge sums..... FACT. This has proved impossible, that doesn't mean Rafa is a cr@p manager, just that now you need to spend big to compete. We have spent big and we are competing.... wheres the problem in that?

5/Its time to stop making excuses and concentrate on winning the title.

6/No one is saying that Rafa has wasted the money, just that to try to use lack of money as an excuse after spending like we have is imo starting to sound pathetic.

by **tubby** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:02 pm

s@int wrote:Its nothing to do with wanting to sack Rafa or to praise Fergie Igor, its just at times I get sick of the same whinging false excuses ....... " How can we possibly compete when Rafa has not had the money to buy players", or "All our players were cr@p when Rafa came".

The truth is Fergie got lucky when he signed Ronaldo, just as we did when we signed Torres. I am sure no one expected Ronaldo to become such a prolific goalscorer when they signed him, and he has been the difference between the mancs and the rest for the past few years.

Hopefully a fit Torres will have a similar impact for us over the next few years and fire us to a couple of titles.

Mate you keep saying it's an excuse but it is the truth. Before Fergie signed Ronaldo he still have so many players in place that had come through the ranks, the likes of the Nevilles, Scholes, Giggs ect.... So obviously if you have half your team in place then it makes it easier when making new signings as you can just throw big sums at players to ensure you buy quality. Do we have that? No. Rafa has not even had the same amount of time it took Fergie to produce all thosse players so please stop with this continuous argument when it simply is not the case.

Ok we finished above them a few seasons before Rafa but if there was nothing wrong then why did GH get the sack? And if our squad was so good in Rafas first year then why did we not even finish in the top 4?

The truth is Fergie has been patient and has produced the players he needed for the spine of his team from the ground up. We on the other hand do not have that luxury just yet so we have to throw the money around severalplayers where as he would just spend that sum on 1 or 2. There sums involved are the same but the way they are being used are miles mate.

At the point Rafa came Utd had half their squad in place so you cannot justify the gross or net spend as Utds spending at the time would have obviously been less than ours.

If you go back to when Fergie first got to Utd his spend was higher than Kennys because he was faced with the same task as Rafa is now but at that he couldnt touch Kenny becasue he had such a great squad in place.

It's time to stop being so impatient with knee jerk reactions when you see sums of money banded about. We very well could have won the league last season had it been for a few home draws. Compare that to us being 30 points of the pace in Rafas first season. The facts are there for all to see.

by **Nando26** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:27 pm

s@int wrote:
fivecups wrote:Ace it's hard to put credibility in your figures when you won't even tell us where you got them from.

Flight made some valid points as he did in Bad Bob's money thread which Bav has mentioned, you didn't respond to them apart from calling him a newbie and I've told you the correct transfer fee for Torres.

Fact - we are still paying for the clauses in Torres transfer. We pay £150k for every 15 goals Torres scores for example. If all the clauses become payable on Torres transfer we will actually pay £27.5million.

Similarly we actually paid over £14million for Alonso. (Just ask our resident Alonso expert)

Yeh but mate do you think United & Chelsea wont have similar deals with the players they've bought

so you cant really mention stuff like that

'On the whole 'Ace newbie' comments......just plain pathetic, you think because you've been coming on a thread about Liverpool for longer you somehow know more?

sounds like a pathetic litlle losers God complex to me

by **metalhead** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:44 pm

s@int wrote:Its time to stop making excuses

Here are the facts

1/ We have spent over £200million on players. Maybe not as much as we would have liked, but still a huge sum that most clubs would love to have spent.

2/ Rafa didn't come to a team full of cr@p players, yes we had some poor ones, but we also had some top class ones. Players who won trophies before he came and won trophies after he came. Why people feel they must denigrate past players and managers to make Rafa's achievements seem better is beyond me.

3/ Our gross spend is bigger than the mancs and so is our net spend since Rafa came. This varies season to season, but at the moment that is a fact.

4/Rafa has got a good squad of players, if we don't win the league its not the fault of a manager who left the club over 5 years ago.

5/Rafa was brought in as a manager who could win the league WITHOUT spending huge sums..... FACT. This has proved impossible, that doesn't mean Rafa is a cr@p manager, just that now you need to spend big to compete. We have spent big and we are competing.... wheres the problem in that?

5/Its time to stop making excuses and concentrate on winning the title.

6/No one is saying that Rafa has wasted the money, just that to try to use lack of money as an excuse after spending like we have is imo starting to sound pathetic.

I blame Rick Parry. :angry:

by **Penguins** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:17 pm

s@int wrote:Its time to stop making excuses

Here are the facts

1/ We have spent over £200million on players. Maybe not as much as we would have liked, but still a huge sum that most clubs would love to have spent.

2/ Rafa didn't come to a team full of cr@p players, yes we had some poor ones, but we also had some top class ones. Players who won trophies before he came and won trophies after he came. Why people feel they must denigrate past players and managers to make Rafa's achievements seem better is beyond me.

3/ Our gross spend is bigger than the mancs and so is our net spend since Rafa came. This varies season to season, but at the moment that is a fact.

4/Rafa has got a good squad of players, if we don't win the league its not the fault of a manager who left the club over 5 years ago.

5/Rafa was brought in as a manager who could win the league WITHOUT spending huge sums..... FACT. This has proved impossible, that doesn't mean Rafa is a cr@p manager, just that now you need to spend big to compete. We have spent big and we are competing.... wheres the problem in that?

5/Its time to stop making excuses and concentrate on winning the title.

6/No one is saying that Rafa has wasted the money, just that to try to use lack of money as an excuse after spending like we have is imo starting to sound pathetic.

But please Saint.

1) Please understand Rafa hasn't been given 200 million in his hands day 1 when he came. Unless he had sold players, alot of them, he would never had been allowed to spend 200 million.
And like some have mentioned before, Fergie has been able to
when he feels neccessary, to spunk up 30 odd million on players
to fine tune the squad with quality.
Rafa has never been able to that!

2) If you can never get over that GH did actually get fired for a reason or that GH brought in **** in his final years or that the squad was pretty poor with no players really worth something. And because GH brought in **** the squad became paper thin. Then Rafa got the Cisse and Owen problem
in his lap when he came, which meant we paid 6 million+Owen
for Cisse. Awful.

3) Once again, even if it hurts to be objective, the Mancs had
half a squad already in place with quality players who had won the league.
So what if Manure is a **** club, it doesn't change the fact that Ferdinand, Rooney, Giggs etc were/are great players,
The was very little to build on when Rafa arrived.
Only Gerrard was there. Carra became important once Rafa
made him a better player. The rest were either to inury prone
to be counted on or too old to be counted on the make an assult on the title as it doesn't take 1-2 years to eat up 30 pts.
So we a whole new squad!
That is a fact since there was no great players waiting in the reserves just players like Diao taking a huge paycheck and nobody wanting him.

4) Rafa is improving the squad each year but so are Chelski and Manure(even if they haven't so far this summer)
And becoming 2nd and pushing for the title until the end is not something i reckon as a totalt failure after what I have seen these past 20 years.
You make it sound like it's the title or goodbye, even knowing
that Rafa has got us the best team we have had for ages
and at least we have got a chance now.
You really believe a new manger will help us?
I don't care what everyone says, but we will definatly loose most foreign players sooner rather than later and a new project will start. And contracts will only get you so far
when players make their intention clear that no new contracts will be signed.

5/ I agree, but just becuase he is the best in my eyes still to do that, doesn't somehow guarantee league title after league title.
Hand on heart, I can see no one who would have done a better job that Rafa during his 5 years with us.
Maureen got 500 million to splash and he is so overvalued it isn't even funny. Only pics teams where he can not fail to succeed.
Spending big is a must no matter what cause they are still managers not miracle workers.

6) The title is the goal, but the squad is improving each season and as long as that happens I am confident the reward will be the title sooner or later.
Patience is the key and at the same time the aknowledgement
that the PL is the toughest and best league in the world to win.

7)I wouldn't say a lack of money should be used just tosay we can't compete, but at the same time I will say that Manure
and Chelski has an advantage cause they can spend more on single player, which usually means better players or at least easier to find, and can spend more on fees and wages than us.
Rafa is still given a good position, but not the best to make it the best team. So he absolutely can not make failures, like Veron, Shevshenko etc which our rivals can and still go out and buy another player for 30 million. If Rafa made such a mistake he would be fried.

Once again, even if I see lots of errors in his tactics, his mentality and his preferance in players, I would still claim he is
still the best bet to bring us no 19. As long as I see improvement in the squad, more quality players coming in, I see room for improvement on the pitch then I will support
Rafa. So what if the **** wins a 19th title before us, as long as we win no 19 then 20.

by **heimdall** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:17 pm

OK I agree that Rafa has had to spend money to get us into shape but you can't argue that Rafa has not had enough money and then in the same breath decry Man City and the chavs for buying the league, you can't have it both ways.

The bottom line is that Rafa should now be in a position to fine tune the team (£19 million on one defender) which he seems to be doing so we should now be able to win the title this season or at worst next season, there can be no more excuses over money, Rafa has had 5 years and a very healthy amount of money to make the team competitive and I think certainly in the last years he has achieved this.

by **Penguins** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:49 pm

So what do you suggest then if let's say we end up 3rd next season 5 pts behinf the winners and then 2nd 2 pts behind the leaders the following season?
Blow it all up and start over?
It's not like a new manager won't have to start getting "his" team in as many players that Rafa has brought would want to move and not renew contract.

Pepe being a prime example. It is without a doubt he would be looking to move back to Spain should Rafa leave.
If he won't sign a new contract we would be forced to sell.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:58 pm

Penguins

1/ What manager has been given £200million in his hands day one?

2/ Houllier was sacked because he lost it after his heart problems, he bought bad players and lost the respect of the players. I don't have any problem with Houllier being sacked. I do have a problem when people say we didn't have some good players though.

3/ This is where I have a big problem . We had Dudek, not the greatest goalkeeper in the world but still a good keeper, Finnan went on to be as good as any fb in the prem under Rafa, Carra as good as any CB, Hyypia as good as any CB IN THE PREM, Riise outstanding for us in his first few years. Hamann one of the top 3 DM in the prem, Gerrard WORLD CLASS PLAYER, Kewell better than any winger we have had since. Murphy an England international, who proved even last season against both ourselves and the mancs that he can still perform. Cisse was an outstanding talent and evenRafa had tried to sign him BEFORE he came to Liverpool. Baros golden boot winner in 2004 EURO and was outstanding for us in the season we won the CL. Owen W. CLASS STRIKER. Pongole gone on to be a French international and been transfered for big money since leaving Liverpool.

All of whom would get into the present squad

Or maybe I should mention Josemi, Pelligreno, Morientes, Gonzales, Krompkamp, Bellamy, Palletta, Pennant, Leto, Voronin, N'gog just to make Houllier sound better.

I fail to see why you should try to denegrate past players who were neither "cr@p" or "garbage" in some vain attempt to try to make our spending somehow smaller?

We have spent over £200million..... fact ...... live with it, get used to it.

This thread is not about how good or bad a job Rafa is doing, it is about our spending. We have spent more than the mancs since Rafa took over, both gross and net. That doesn't mean the money has been wasted or that Rafa is a bad manager.

We have made over 110 transfers since Rafa arrived, spent over £200million on new players, its now five years since he took over. Imo if we don't win the league this season it will not be because he hasn't had a lot of money to spend.

FFS we spent £18million on a fullback, so stop the pathetic excuses and let him stand or fall by his achievements rather than denegrating past players and managers to make him somehow look better.

WHERE did you get the figure of £500millon spent by Mourinho. He spent less than £100million to win the league in his FIRST YEAR!

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:06 pm

Penguins wrote:So what do you suggest then if let's say we end up 3rd next season 5 pts behinf the winners and then 2nd 2 pts behind the leaders the following season?
Blow it all up and start over?
It's not like a new manager won't have to start getting "his" team in as many players that Rafa has brought would want to move and not renew contract.

Pepe being a prime example. It is without a doubt he would be looking to move back to Spain should Rafa leave.
If he won't sign a new contract we would be forced to sell.

THEY PLAY FOR LIVERPOOL FC not Rafa Benitez

But this thread was started by ACE' (SINCE BANNED) to discuss our spending not whether RAFA SHOULD BE SACKED OR NOT.

by **red37** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:15 pm

s@int wrote:
Penguins wrote:So what do you suggest then if let's say we end up 3rd next season 5 pts behinf the winners and then 2nd 2 pts behind the leaders the following season?
Blow it all up and start over?
It's not like a new manager won't have to start getting "his" team in as many players that Rafa has brought would want to move and not renew contract.

Pepe being a prime example. It is without a doubt he would be looking to move back to Spain should Rafa leave.
If he won't sign a new contract we would be forced to sell.

THEY PLAY FOR LIVERPOOL FC not Rafa Benitez

But this thread was started by ACE' (SINCE BANNED) to discuss our spending not whether RAFA SHOULD BE SACKED OR NOT.

Any problems....PM a moderator for clarification instead of dropping yer little barbs all over the gaff. Otherwise butt the f*ck out.

Besides, you've missed the boat - again. Maybe you couldn't PM each other fast enough? After all the 'airwaves' are clogged up a bit, i'll admit.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:28 pm

red37 wrote:
s@int wrote:
Penguins wrote:So what do you suggest then if let's say we end up 3rd next season 5 pts behinf the winners and then 2nd 2 pts behind the leaders the following season?
Blow it all up and start over?
It's not like a new manager won't have to start getting "his" team in as many players that Rafa has brought would want to move and not renew contract.

Pepe being a prime example. It is without a doubt he would be looking to move back to Spain should Rafa leave.
If he won't sign a new contract we would be forced to sell.

THEY PLAY FOR LIVERPOOL FC not Rafa Benitez

But this thread was started by ACE' (SINCE BANNED) to discuss our spending not whether RAFA SHOULD BE SACKED OR NOT.

Any problems....PM a moderator for clarification instead of dropping yer little barbs all over the gaff. Otherwise butt the f*ck out.

Besides, you've missed the boat - again. Maybe you couldn't PM each other fast enough? After all the 'airwaves' are clogged up a bit, i'll admit.

I again don't know WTF you are on about, but thats nothing new with you is it.

Whats the problem now, that I mentioned Ace who started this thread was banned? Is it something that shouldn't be mentioned?

Or in other words where is the fkn barb in saying "since banned" ?

So why not take your own advice

by **Penguins** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:36 pm

Saint

1/Maybe not 200 million but still able to spunk 30 million on single players when needed.

2/ Problem was that the team and squad had become a worse team because many had become desillusioned by GH after he lost the plot and saw no throphies in the future for the team.
Since GH didn't improve the team for a couple of years our stars Owen and Gerrard wanted out, which led to the fact that our star striker left for a pittance.

That made the team which ended up 30 pts after the winners 03/04 a heck of a lot weaker with very little money to improve the team with already 14 million wasted on Cisse.

3) If Dudek was such a good keeper why did he do all those blunders and why couldn't we get any fee for him when we tried to sell him?
Finnan is just an example of how much all fans seem to overvalue it's players.
He was a good solid defender who offered very little going forward and would have fetched around 5 million if he had been sold. He was 28 already at the time and he really was too old to be able to play a part in a tittle winning team.
Sure, Carra was good and young enough but Hyppia was 30 already then and too old to build around a title team cause we weren't ever going to win in 2-3 years!
I never thought Risse was that great, just that we couldn't afford to pur money into strengthening that position since we had other priorities.
Hamman= see Hyppia. A very good midfielder at the time but too old to build into a title team.
Gerrard I already have mentioned was world class.
How can you say that about Kewell honestly??
The same player who couldn't stay fit even if his life depended on it, who got chance after chance by Rafa and who had to leave both the Legaue cup final and the CL final due to injury.
He was a walking medical journal.
Owen was gone and lost and Rafa tried in vaid to convince him to stay. Owen had already fooled the club into his final year of his contract and was not a player at Rafa's disposal!
If you can't get that then i despair.
Pongolle is not a french international and would not get into that team. He was only ever going to be a good bench option.

Why do u have to mention
Josemi, Pelligreno, Morientes, Gonzales, Krompkamp, Bellamy, Palletta, Pennant, Leto, Voronin, N'gog who

1) cost peanuts
2) were the least succesful buys Rafa made.
3) unlike GH buys we actually got back all the money spent
even if they were/are failures
4)unlike all the good players Rafa has brought to the club has skyrocketed in value

We have not spent 200 million just outright as the books show we have recouped a heck of alot of money too which made the spending possible!
Total spending includes total ins and outs!
And yes, we have spent maybe more than the mancs now since Rafa took over but the **** had a much better team than we had at the time.

It is no coincidence we got
6 for Baros, 6 for Cisse, 2 for Traore, 5 for Risse, 0 for Dudek,
3 for Kirkland and I could go on. why???
Because that is what the world outside LFC says what they are worth!

I can accept at this moment he is getting to the position Rafa can finetune his team by upgrading 1-2 positions with real talent.
BUT....
That should not mean his 1st 3 years was anything like that and count as a millstone which was wasted!
Fergie has been able to do what Rafa has been able to do this summer for many years!
Sure, Rafa should be able to be accountable this season
because of that but as long as he is up the with Manure and Chelski getting close/winning I will still support him.

It all comes down to if you have your rose-tinted glasses believing the team which ended up 30 pts the winners when Rafa took over was close to as good as the team the Manc **** had assembled over years time.

I choose to believe the **** had a better team because rednose had been able to spend huge amounts before Rafa came while GH had wasted all our money on ****.

by **red37** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:38 pm

Any problems - PM a moderator. Who will happy to furnish anybody who is curious...with the necessary details. No need to spam a topic with irrelevant observations.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:58 pm

Penguins

1/ How many £30million pound players have the mancs signed ...... 1........ Berbatov. They have also sold Beckham for £26million or so and Ronaldo for £80million.Maybe if we had been daft enough to have sold Gerrard for £40million we might have signed one too.

2/ The team had lost its way, the players were still good players though. As usual a new manager comes in and gets the best out of them. That doesn't mean they were cr@p, it just means they needed the incentive given to them by a new manager.

3/Dudek wouldn't go, he decided to see out his contract with us and leave on a free mate. Same as Pennant, Diao, and no doubt Voronin (if we don't manage to offload him soon)

Baros cost us £3million we sold him for £6.5million, Cisse was sold AFTER he had had two terrible leg breaks so you can hardly expect top dollar. Traore cost us £0.5million we sold him for £2million, Riise cost us £4million we sold him for £5million ?

Pennant cost us £7million we got £0, Morientes cost us £7.5million we got £3million.

All that is besides the point the point I am making is the excuse that we haven't been able to compete because of lack of money is no more. It is a past excuse, it has ceased to be, it has expired and gone to meet its maker. It is no longer a valid excuse, and denegrating past players will not make it any more viable or true mate.

As you have said the reason why we finished 30 points behind the mancs was not because we had bad players but because the players were dissillusioned with the manager. The fact that we finished above the mancs shows that. The fact that we beat them in the lc final shows that. The fact that we won the CL FINAL with 9 of them shows that, the fact that we won the FA CUP with 7 of them shows that. The fact that since most of them left we have won nothing shows that.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:59 pm

red37 wrote:Any problems - PM a moderator. Who will happy to furnish anybody who is curious...with the necessary details. No need to spam a topic with irrelevant observations.

The only irrelevant observations I can see were yours mate.

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