Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:30 am

Oh Jesus, not another miracle working wonder kid. No doubt he is good on crosses and will soon have his position nailed down.

Good post Mick, I have thought the same for a long while mate.

by **aCe'** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:42 am

Greavesie wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Greavesie wrote:you're a Liverpool fan right?

yea... didnt know the name of the club was changed to RafaBenetiz & Co. FC

it hasn't but I'm quite willing to name it after this Jesus guy

seriously handling the media cack? I'd say he usually handles them pretty well

well.. i see it differently... not a big fan of managers coming out and blaming refs for missing out on titles.. talking about refereeing decisions in matches other than our own that quite clearly shouldnt concern us...
Came out a little pathetic and unlike what you'd expect of a Liverpool manager imo...
Barry, Keane, Alonse... then you have the whole spending thing he went on about ... only to be proven wrong... His contract... other players contracts before he signed... how pretty much every little negative thing that goes on in the club needs to be run by the press at first chance (and its been that way for quite some time)... sorry but not my thing..

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:34 am

this is being completely blown out of proportion. Rafa, IMO, did not "get serious" about signing foreign youth talents until 2007. Since then, Insua has come through, and we have brought in lads like Lauri Dalla Valle who is rated as one of the top players of his age in Europe and Chrisopher Buchtmann who made a UEFA list of players of the future after impressing at the U17 Euros. Kacaniklic has also been a very impressive foreign academy signing, and has been promoted to Melwood. Other than that, very few foreigners have actually been based at the academy and players like Spearing, Darby, Kelly, Irwin, and other have been promoted to the reserves.

And its not like we have not been trying to sign the top talent from the country. We have been on the losing end of the race to sign people like John Cofie and Aaron Ramsey. But its hard to attract the top talent to come when you don't have kids making the grade at your club, and its hard to get kids to make the grade at the club if you cannot attract the top talent, a culture that Rafa inherited and something that is difficult to turn around.

In many ways its easier to bring in these Spanish kids than English kids because of the loophole where English teams can offer pro contracts at a younger age. Since we have a much better scouting network in Spain, it wouldn't make sense NOT to try and take advantage of the rule. Also, Rafa has a very strict ENGLISH SPEAKING ONLY rule with his players I think it is a gross exaggeration to suggest that somehow a Scouser could feel like a foreigner at the LFC academy.

All that said, I think we have too many players in the reserves, and I will be very disapointed if the expected exodus does not come, but I have said that I will wait to comment on the whole situation until September 1.

Lets not forget who the three subs were that came on against PSV: Spearing (Wirral), Darby (Liverpool (can't seem to find specifics)), and Kelly (Whiston)

And scored one of the goals that turned the tide of the title against us: Federico Macheda (Rome)

If any Scouser is scared of a little competition in the squad when he is 15, and flees to Everton, I would question what kind of character they are going to have at 23, when they are also going to have to compete against players from the world over to earn a place in the 1st team. Bringing in a diversity of talent, IMO can only be beneficial for the development of the top level local kids, and to be honest, those are the only local kids that matter int terms of what matters for the 1st team.

by **red37** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:14 am

I prefer this one ^^^

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:35 am

aCe' wrote:Its quite obvious to me that while Rafa is probably a good coach and one of the better ones around, when it comes to being a manager (and with all the different aspects in the club hes trying to get heavily involved in) he is quite poor compared to some of the other names around..
In terms of transfers hes cack..
In terms of man management hes cack..
In terms of handling the media hes cack..
No wonder every other manager in the league and every other neutral fan either dont get along with him or hate him...

I see, running the Mancs a close second in the league, winning the CL and FA Cup, amassing record club points hauls and scoring the most goals in the league while having one of the best defensive records in football in the last five years must be an absolute piece of p!sh then if a "cack" manager can do it. I suppose only a "cack" manager could sign Torres, Alonso, Reina, Masch etc? I also wonder when someone is planning to tell Torres that Rafa's "cack" at man-management. That way, he might stop coming out with crazy comments like: "There is a lot of belief at the club and a lot of trust in the manager. I sincerely believe I will win the Premier League and the European Cup here" and "I'm very excited about what the boss is doing here at Liverpool. We came close last season and, with the experience we now have, I believe we can be champions next season." :suspect:

Is there any mystery, aCe', why you get called a Manc or a Bitter at every turn? We've just finished a season where we've somehow managed to play some of the best football the club has produced in the past two decades and yet the manager's "cack" at signing players, handling them and dealing with the media? Smells like a wind-up to me. :glare:

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:37 am

Sabre wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:Is Suso a typical nickname for Jesus? Sounds like it would be. Maybe we could call him El Hijo

Yes.

Jesus has two shorts actually.

You have Chus, which is working class version of Jesus

And you have Suso. A bit gay.

If a guy is gay and his name is Jesus, it's more likely he chooses Suso .

I think the other short for Jesus (Chus) is more common.

100% Fruit Juice

by **DrPepe** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:50 am

Bad Bob wrote:
aCe' wrote:Its quite obvious to me that while Rafa is probably a good coach and one of the better ones around, when it comes to being a manager (and with all the different aspects in the club hes trying to get heavily involved in) he is quite poor compared to some of the other names around..
In terms of transfers hes cack..
In terms of man management hes cack..
In terms of handling the media hes cack..
No wonder every other manager in the league and every other neutral fan either dont get along with him or hate him...

I see, running the Mancs a close second in the league, winning the CL and FA Cup, amassing record club points hauls and scoring the most goals in the league while having one of the best defensive records in football in the last five years must be an absolute piece of p!sh then if a "cack" manager can do it. I suppose only a "cack" manager could sign Torres, Alonso, Reina, Masch etc? I also wonder when someone is planning to tell Torres that Rafa's "cack" at man-management. That way, he might stop coming out with crazy comments like: "There is a lot of belief at the club and a lot of trust in the manager. I sincerely believe I will win the Premier League and the European Cup here" and "I'm very excited about what the boss is doing here at Liverpool. We came close last season and, with the experience we now have, I believe we can be champions next season."

Is there any mystery, aCe', why you get called a Manc or a Bitter at every turn? We've just finished a season where we've somehow managed to play some of the best football the club has produced in the past two decades and yet the manager's "cack" at signing players, handling them and dealing with the media? Smells like a wind-up to me.

here here, Bob - i agree with every word :bowdown

i almost spat my coffee out when i read that pile of boolocks from ace. His bitterness towards rafa is often so one-eyed that it's laughable. If the criticisms were kept within the bounds of reality then they might be worth taking seriously. However, calling everything a manager does as "cack" is just plain funny :laugh:

Regarding the signing of youngsters and the ace/reg/mick criticism of too many foreign kids - in principle i (sort of) agree. But i also think that if we are to attraact the BEST youngsters then we need to be succesful as a club. And if at the moment that means casting our net wide to bring in a lot of talent (of whom obviously only a small % will make it to the first 11), then so be it

as with everything , the cream (of whatever nationality) will always rise to the top :cool:

by **bigmick** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:40 am

One or two people getting carried away here. Firstly Ace, I do wish you wouldn't pick up points which are included in my posts and then broadly say, "I agree with Mick, Rafa's a total c..."

I certainly don't think he's cack at everything anyway.

As for this kid we've signed, I don't have anything aghainst him personally and I've no doubts he'll be a very talented player for his age. My point is more of an ongoing one, in that we do seem to focusing more on players from overseas that we are on players at Home. Once all these Superkids start coming through I'll believe there's some validity in the policy, until then though I think it's utter b0ll0cks. We're not talking "delayed gazelle" utter b0ll0cks though as there is a remote chance it might work in the end.

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:39 am

Also would like to point out that TWELEVE U16s player got promoted to the U18s for next season. I am pretty sure that they are all English although their individual profiles are not up yet. But I do know that a couple of them have been called up to play for England.

by **Espionage** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:01 am

aCe' wrote:
Greavesie wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Greavesie wrote:you're a Liverpool fan right?

yea... didnt know the name of the club was changed to RafaBenetiz & Co. FC

it hasn't but I'm quite willing to name it after this Jesus guy

seriously handling the media cack? I'd say he usually handles them pretty well

well.. i see it differently... not a big fan of managers coming out and blaming refs for missing out on titles.. talking about refereeing decisions in matches other than our own that quite clearly shouldnt concern us...
Came out a little pathetic and unlike what you'd expect of a Liverpool manager imo...
Barry, Keane, Alonse... then you have the whole spending thing he went on about ... only to be proven wrong... His contract... other players contracts before he signed... how pretty much every little negative thing that goes on in the club needs to be run by the press at first chance (and its been that way for quite some time)... sorry but not my thing..

You write rubbish.

It is even worse because of the inappropriate use of punctuation and paragraphing.

by **aCe'** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:37 am

Bad Bob wrote:
aCe' wrote:Its quite obvious to me that while Rafa is probably a good coach and one of the better ones around, when it comes to being a manager (and with all the different aspects in the club hes trying to get heavily involved in) he is quite poor compared to some of the other names around..
In terms of transfers hes cack..
In terms of man management hes cack..
In terms of handling the media hes cack..
No wonder every other manager in the league and every other neutral fan either dont get along with him or hate him...

I see, running the Mancs a close second in the league, winning the CL and FA Cup, amassing record club points hauls and scoring the most goals in the league while having one of the best defensive records in football in the last five years must be an absolute piece of p!sh then if a "cack" manager can do it. I suppose only a "cack" manager could sign Torres, Alonso, Reina, Masch etc? I also wonder when someone is planning to tell Torres that Rafa's "cack" at man-management. That way, he might stop coming out with crazy comments like: "There is a lot of belief at the club and a lot of trust in the manager. I sincerely believe I will win the Premier League and the European Cup here" and "I'm very excited about what the boss is doing here at Liverpool. We came close last season and, with the experience we now have, I believe we can be champions next season."

Is there any mystery, aCe', why you get called a Manc or a Bitter at every turn? We've just finished a season where we've somehow managed to play some of the best football the club has produced in the past two decades and yet the manager's "cack" at signing players, handling them and dealing with the media? Smells like a wind-up to me.

Well your not saying much there now are you...
I said hes a good coach... defensively and tactically i think hes probably as good as they come... wasnt talking about our points records or trophies we won (not that there isnt much to say about both), but rather about some of the other aspects that have to do with a 'manager's' job rather than a coach's..
.
Your next point about transfers is also a funny one... Name one manager who managed a top club for 5 years and didnt bring in 4 top players in that time period... hell even GH did it.. Hughes did it with ManCity so it all comes down to money ... Now given the money spent on players outside the 4 your mentioned, the number of players he bought, the number of players sold...etc its fair to say that his transfer policy is a little 'hit and miss' to say the least..

As for the man management part, think its interesting that you'd put Torres there as the example.... wonder what Keane, Alonso, Crouch, Pennant, Babel, Riise...etc would have to say about that if they openly discussed it..

And no it isnt a mystery Bob... most of you guys are happy just looking at the bright side... thinking its always good and dandy in bright old Liverpool.. When you talk about transfers you're happy pointing out the 4 out of 60 or so who made it... 2nd in the league is seen as this huge achievement and hey.. it doesnt matter what he does, we'll always have the best manager in the world..
We've done alot better towards the end of last season, funny enough that was the time Rafa seemingly decided to change his ways drastically... playing attacking football, playing a settled side..etc etc... If he can pick up from there and take some of this into next season then good for us... Its going to be a long summer though, thats for sure...

by **aCe'** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:39 am

bigmick wrote:One or two people getting carried away here. Firstly Ace, I do wish you wouldn't pick up points which are included in my posts and then broadly say, "I agree with Mick, Rafa's a total c..." I certainly don't think he's cack at everything anyway.

As for this kid we've signed, I don't have anything aghainst him personally and I've no doubts he'll be a very talented player for his age. My point is more of an ongoing one, in that we do seem to focusing more on players from overseas that we are on players at Home. Once all these Superkids start coming through I'll believe there's some validity in the policy, until then though I think it's utter b0ll0cks. We're not talking "delayed gazelle" utter b0ll0cks though as there is a remote chance it might work in the end.

Well my agreement with your post was with regards to the kid we signed and our policy of fascination with everything Spanish atm.. the other 'garbage' in my post had nothing to do with your post or Reg's for all that matters...

by **aCe'** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:41 am

Espionage wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Greavesie wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Greavesie wrote:you're a Liverpool fan right?

yea... didnt know the name of the club was changed to RafaBenetiz & Co. FC

it hasn't but I'm quite willing to name it after this Jesus guy

seriously handling the media cack? I'd say he usually handles them pretty well

well.. i see it differently... not a big fan of managers coming out and blaming refs for missing out on titles.. talking about refereeing decisions in matches other than our own that quite clearly shouldnt concern us...
Came out a little pathetic and unlike what you'd expect of a Liverpool manager imo...
Barry, Keane, Alonse... then you have the whole spending thing he went on about ... only to be proven wrong... His contract... other players contracts before he signed... how pretty much every little negative thing that goes on in the club needs to be run by the press at first chance (and its been that way for quite some time)... sorry but not my thing..

You write rubbish.

It is even worse because of the inappropriate use of punctuation and paragraphing.

How about you worry less about my linguistic skills and focus a little more on putting together that footie related post thats been eluding you for quite some time now...

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:00 am

I think people are being a little harsh on Ace' , maybe he could have phrased it better than "cack", but I think he raises areas in which Rafa could improve.

In terms of transfers - I think a more focused approach rather than a scattergun approach might have paid better dividends. Certainly I have not been in favour of the revolving door we have seen with players over the past few years.

Man management - Like most I can only take a guess, but his treatment of players seems in-line with what Gerrard and Carra have said " that he treats players like chess pieces" at times. Confident players like Gerrard and Torres can perhaps cope with this style better than others who may look in vain for the arm round the shoulder and the pat on the back. His treatment of Alonso, Crouch, Keane etc etc could perhaps have been better.

Handling the media - I think he has done better in this area than some, (I agreed with his outburst of facts against Fergie for example) but I can understand how and why other people might believe he has not handled things as well as perhaps he could have.

Then again all that doesn't mean he is a bad ("cack") manager, it just means that he falls short in one or two key areas. Its like saying Hyypia was slow...... it doesn't mean he was a bad player.

I think its very unfair to pick on his writing skills , ffs Bam was one of the best football posters on here and he could hardly spell his name right

I think we should be concentrating on the football content of posts rather than picking holes in their grammar.

by **Sabre** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:08 am

Bigmick wrote:Quite often ...

--snip post for economy reasons--

I agree much of this post.

The Spanish kids are technically superior without quotes, and this is not because of genetics, but because the work is done before the 15 years age. For me searching to win games through big lads is a big mistake at those ages. For 15, most of the technicality of a player should be taught. If you don't know doing certain things at 15, then you're unlikely to learn them.

On the other hand, if you bring a 15 year old Spaniard, the possibilities of him reaching to the first team are still minimum. It's a long shot. I'd only bring a Spaniard if he really seemed like a new Messi. Pachecos? I've seen lots of Pachecos.

So yes, I can understand your concern. And I have to agree it's about time to see some results from the youth academy. And as a fan who understands the value of local football and youth systems, I agree your concerns.

IMHO, Liverpool should start doing a specific job from the most early ages with local lads. Teach them playing football, teach them technicallity, put them against a wall until they control a ball with the eyes closed. Bringing 15 year olders is not a good idea. I don't like it ethically, and I don't like it when I think of the impact it may have on Liverpool young lads.

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