Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:39 pm

It seems pretty obvious to me that some people don't understand the the fundemental difference between a defensive midfielder and a deep-lying playmaker. A deep lying playmaker doesn't go charging about breaking up play, he covers defensively but his main function is to start up attacks.

He needs great passing ability not great tackling ability.The Germans have used players in this position for years , with Beckenbaur the first (that I am aware of) playing there later in his career.(he eventually dropped even further back and became a sweeper). Basically its similar to a sweeper but instead of playing behind the back four they play in front of it, reading the game, covering defensively and building when in possession.

Sammer (East Germany) and Matteous late in his career also took on this role. While not brilliant tacklers and losing their pace they had the experience and passing ability to link things up at the back while sweeping passes out to set up quick counters.Modern day exponents would be Pirlo ( who again started out much further forward) and Alonso.

They are not true defensive midfielders as their main job defensively is cover, not breaking up attacks in the way that a true defensive midfielder like Mascherano, Hamman, or Sissoko would, but sitting centrally deep, usually with the better and more aggressive tackler beside them (Gattuso for Milan and Masch/Hamman/ Sissoko at Liverpool) to do the chasing, harrying and generally making a nuisance of themselves.

While pace is always an asset, this role enables a player lacking pace or whose pace has dwindle withthe years to still exert a huge influence on the game, without exposing their lack of recovery when attacks break down.

In a nutshell their main function is being the focus of starting attacks with their defensive duties secondary.

Hope this helps.

by **GYBS** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:41 pm

Seems quite simple to me mate

by **GYBS** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:42 pm

Xavi is a deep lying playmaker as well

by **JC_81** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:51 pm

To my knowledge s@int, Sammer and Beckenbauer were sweepers and players like Matthaus and Gullit were attacking midfield players until late in their careers when they also dropped back to play sweeper. I don't think any of them fit very well with the deep-lying playmaker role you are describing, but I am completely on board in terms of separating that position from the role of a defensive midfielder.

For me, examples of the deep lying playmaker are:

Alonso, Veron, Pirlo, Scholes (in his later years), Xavi, Riquelme.

by **DrPepe** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:59 pm

Sorry s@int, you've obviously got it wrong about xabi, as I have it on good authority from many manc and chav fans that Liverpool are a boring, defensive team who play with 2 holding CMs

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:16 pm

john craig wrote:To my knowledge s@int, Sammer and Beckenbauer were sweepers and players like Matthaus and Gullit were attacking midfield players until late in their careers when they also dropped back to play sweeper. I don't think any of them fit very well with the deep-lying playmaker role you are describing, but I am completely on board in terms of separating that position from the role of a defensive midfielder.

For me, examples of the deep lying playmaker are:

Alonso, Veron, Pirlo, Scholes (in his later years), Xavi, Riquelme.

Sorry John, I think your wrong mate, Beckenbaur eventually played sweeper(as I said) but when Bayern where at their peak (and also for West Germany) Beckenbaur played infront of the back four as a deep-lying playmaker, (1970 world cup and for 2 of their 3 European cup wins with Bayern.) Both Sammer and Matthaus also played there as well mate.

by **GYBS** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:26 pm

sammer did but matthues was more of an attacking midfeilder bursting forward to score - a lampard type player

by **Effes** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:30 pm

Has this got anything to do with the talk about Essien in the Alonso Thread s@int?

I dont think anyone disputed their differing roles.

But I think Essien is someone who brings a more "complete" set of abilites to the centre.

Xabi is by far the better passer; but when it comes down to work rate, tackling, attacking threat etc,
I think Essien comes out on top.
He excels and ticks more boxes than most centre midfielders.

However, with us having Mascherano, I'd rather have Xabi.

Or where you reference to something else?

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:42 pm

Effes wrote:Has this got anything to do with the talk about Essien in the Alonso Thread s@int?

I dont think anyone disputed their differing roles.

But I think Essien is someone who brings a more "complete" set of abilites to the centre.

Xabi is by far the better passer; but when it comes down to work rate, tackling, attacking threat etc,
I think Essien comes out on top.
He excels and ticks more boxes than most centre midfielders.

However, with us having Mascherano, I'd rather have Xabi.

Or where you reference to something else?

I haven't read anything about Essien mate, but I would swop Alonso for him anyday of the week.

In my view Essien is World class.

by **GYBS** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:47 pm

will agree essein is world class - would i swap him for xabi ?? yeah i reckon so .

by **Effes** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:50 pm

s@int wrote:
Effes wrote:Has this got anything to do with the talk about Essien in the Alonso Thread s@int?

I dont think anyone disputed their differing roles.

But I think Essien is someone who brings a more "complete" set of abilites to the centre.

Xabi is by far the better passer; but when it comes down to work rate, tackling, attacking threat etc,
I think Essien comes out on top.
He excels and ticks more boxes than most centre midfielders.

However, with us having Mascherano, I'd rather have Xabi.

Or where you reference to something else?

I haven't read anything about Essien mate, but I would swop Alonso for him anyday of the week. In my view Essien is World class.

Ah the reverse psychology worked! - wait til Sabre gets here tho.

by **JC_81** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:12 pm

s@int wrote:
john craig wrote:To my knowledge s@int, Sammer and Beckenbauer were sweepers and players like Matthaus and Gullit were attacking midfield players until late in their careers when they also dropped back to play sweeper. I don't think any of them fit very well with the deep-lying playmaker role you are describing, but I am completely on board in terms of separating that position from the role of a defensive midfielder.

For me, examples of the deep lying playmaker are:

Alonso, Veron, Pirlo, Scholes (in his later years), Xavi, Riquelme.

Sorry John, I think your wrong mate, Beckenbaur eventually played sweeper(as I said) but when Bayern where at their peak (and also for West Germany) Beckenbaur played infront of the back four as a deep-lying playmaker, (1970 world cup and for 2 of their 3 European cup wins with Bayern.) Both Sammer and Matthaus also played there as well mate.

Fair enough mate. On Beckenbauer I can't argue, he was well before my time, I was under the impression he was mainly a sweeper though.

On Matthaus we'll have to agree to disagree. On Sammer I can only ever remember him as a sweeper. But then again I'm no expert in mid-90s German football :laugh:

by **dawson99** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:14 pm

Do we really need a deep lying playmaker?
We got masher back, stevie well forwards and people on the flanks... is the DLP a un needd commodity? i mean he dont score much, he dont tackle much....

(playing devils advocate here)

by **Effes** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:18 pm

dawson99 wrote:Do we really need a deep lying playmaker?
We got masher back, stevie well forwards and people on the flanks... is the DLP a un needd commodity? i mean he dont score much, he dont tackle much....

(playing devils advocate here)

Not at all, I think at home someone like Snjeider can be more effective.

by **Sabre** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:02 pm

That's what nomenclature is about, putting names to things and roles.

And you can discuss about it forever, but it has nothing to do with understanding Alonso's role or not (I've been watching ALonso for more than a decade)

I guess that each culture uses some names. In my football culture a defensive midfielder is more often than not the one to start the play... defensive midfielder doesn't imply the player doesn't know to pass. And it's an old role!! Xabi's own father was this kind of player, but his son is an improved version.

So you can take an old role and define a new name that adjusts a certain player, but Alonso still has done most of the time in Liverpool (*) and Spain the role of holding mid. Alonso is not a Pirlo, because Spain plays little midfielders with Alonso behind, but Italy would never play Pirlo without a Gatusso. You won't see Pirlo taking roles ALonso takes normally, even if he's a playmaker.

If in England holding mid implies the player doesn't set the tempo or doesn't start the plays, then fair enough, we need a new name for what Alonso does. But if you don't make that assumption, you don't really need it.

Spain plays with 5 midfielders often, and Alonso plays behind most of them, he always plays behind the likes of Xavi and Iniesta, he always covers his back, and he always is the man making the cover to the man pressing in the zonal defence. A holding mid role. Then he often starts the play, sometimes helped, sometimes not, but the fact he has an ability for this doesn't really require new concept of player. He's not the first one to have that ability, and he won't be the last.

Anyway, names are not important, especially because everyone is right somehow and it depends on what you're talking about.

The important thing is to know when a player has quality, and don't be stupid enough to let him go on the cheap! (hear me Rafa!)

(*) It's important though to acknowledge that this season Alonso's been freed in many games of the rigidness of the position, becoming a more classical CM.

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