Liverpool FC Forum

by **lakes10** » Sun May 31, 2009 9:44 am

Ciggy wrote:I think she died accidental in the apartment.

I think you are very right.

by **tubby** » Sun May 31, 2009 1:06 pm

If it was an accident the the parents surley would have been able to come forward. Both are professionals so surley have more sense than to try and cover it up as an abduction.

by **Effes** » Sun May 31, 2009 3:39 pm

Ciggy wrote:I think she died accidental in the apartment.

What kind of accident though?

I think if it was, it was a manslaughter kind of accident; where they would be doing time.

My theory is that Maddy was "difficult" and the mother couldn't handle her.
They were drunk that night, and something happened.

Why did the Dad delete his text messages 2 hours after her disappearance? For me, that implicates him/her hugely.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun May 31, 2009 3:59 pm

Effes wrote:
Ciggy wrote:I think she died accidental in the apartment.

What kind of accident though?

I think if it was, it was a manslaughter kind of accident; where they would be doing time.

My theory is that Maddy was "difficult" and the mother couldn't handle her.
They were drunk that night, and something happened.

Why did the Dad delete his text messages 2 hours after her disappearance? For me, that implicates him/her hugely.

I think you are probably right Effes. I think its difficult to believe that the other people involved would have helped cover up a murder, but a fit of temper with devastating results and maybe they would.

My own view is that ALL the parents had been drugging their kids so they could go out and party. Maddie either was given more than she should have been (because she had woken up on a previous night), or maybe the mother had just had enough and deliberately gave her too much.

No matter whichever way you look at it ..... something happened that night and ALL the "friends" wanted to cover it up.

by **Number 9** » Sun May 31, 2009 4:17 pm

s@int wrote:
Effes wrote:
Ciggy wrote:I think she died accidental in the apartment.

What kind of accident though?

I think if it was, it was a manslaughter kind of accident; where they would be doing time.

My theory is that Maddy was "difficult" and the mother couldn't handle her.
They were drunk that night, and something happened.

Why did the Dad delete his text messages 2 hours after her disappearance? For me, that implicates him/her hugely.

I think you are probably right Effes. I think its difficult to believe that the other people involved would have helped cover up a murder, but a fit of temper with devastating results and maybe they would.

My own view is that ALL the parents had been drugging their kids so they could go out and party. Maddie either was given more than she should have been (because she had woken up on a previous night), or maybe the mother had just had enough and deliberately gave her too much.

No matter whichever way you look at it ..... something happened that night and ALL the "friends" wanted to cover it up.

I dont buy that for a second mate!!

There is no way the parents and ALL their friends would have stayed quiet until now.Someone would have said something or cracked in interview.
Im not saying that the parents dont know what happened but i would'nt believe that all the friends know as well and are covering it up! :no

by **Effes** » Sun May 31, 2009 4:26 pm

Number 9 wrote:
s@int wrote:
Effes wrote:
Ciggy wrote:I think she died accidental in the apartment.

What kind of accident though?

I think if it was, it was a manslaughter kind of accident; where they would be doing time.

My theory is that Maddy was "difficult" and the mother couldn't handle her.
They were drunk that night, and something happened.

Why did the Dad delete his text messages 2 hours after her disappearance? For me, that implicates him/her hugely.

I think you are probably right Effes. I think its difficult to believe that the other people involved would have helped cover up a murder, but a fit of temper with devastating results and maybe they would.

My own view is that ALL the parents had been drugging their kids so they could go out and party. Maddie either was given more than she should have been (because she had woken up on a previous night), or maybe the mother had just had enough and deliberately gave her too much.

No matter whichever way you look at it ..... something happened that night and ALL the "friends" wanted to cover it up.

I dont buy that for a second mate!!

There is no way the parents and ALL their friends would have stayed quiet until now.Someone would have said something or cracked in interview.
Im not saying that the parents dont know what happened but i would'nt believe that all the friends know as well and are covering it up!

They were all doctors; it's not inconceiveable that they had access to sedatives.
What if they all used these; and it was a "culture" among them?

I find it quite unbelieveable if they all were to keep quiet about something - but you never know.

by **woof woof !** » Sun May 31, 2009 5:08 pm

Here's a thought, what if they're completely innocent of any wrong doing and they have to spend the rest of their lives living with Maddy's loss and the ongoing speculation by the press and EVEN some people on internet forums without any evidence whatsoever that they were somehow complicit in her disappearance .

by **account deleted by request** » Sun May 31, 2009 5:45 pm

If they were innocent Woof, I don't think they would have done a lot of the things they did mate. Not answering questions? I would have told them ANYTHING they wanted to know if it helped find my child.

Clearing all your messages off your cell phone may have been just a mistake, but is that something you would be thinking of doing 2 hours after your daughter disappeared?

If my friends just went to bed while my child was missing, they would no longer BE my friends.

There are just too many things that NO parent would do in those horrifying circumstances to be just coincidence or poor judgement.

There is just too much circumstancial evidence to dismiss imo. Maybe I am a cynic, but if it was my child I would be fighting to get the truth out, and trying to get questions answered not trying to confuse the situation with half truths and down right lies.

by **Effes** » Sun May 31, 2009 6:08 pm

It's easy to take the high moral ground by stating how horrible to be accused in such circumstances.

But some of the "reasons" given on that website are hard to ignore.

Like this:
In Apartment 5A, Eddie, the ‘cadaver dog’ and Keela, the ‘blood-hound’ both clearly marked precisely the same location - behind the sofa in the living room (which had been moved by the McCanns from its original location). The tiles where Keela scented the blood were carefully removed and sent to FSS.

The blood found by Keela was by then degraded, quite possibly as the result of cleaning agents having been used, and the FSS lab was able to check only 5 markers. Each one of those 5 markers matched Madeleine’s DNA - or, to re-phrase this a different way, there were no markers that could not have come from Madeleine, so the idea that it was her blood could most certainly not be discounted.

As for the Renault Scenic, registration no. 59-DA-27, Eddie and Keela both clearly marked the same car and the same location within the car. The blood found there by Keela (beneath the carpeting in the boot) was also degraded. But the FSS lab was able, on its first analysis, to check 15 markers. All of these 15 markers matched Madeleine’s DNA - again, meaning that there were no markers within these 15 that could not have come from Madeleine.

A second result showed the same 15 markers, but among a total of 37 markers. An individual only has 19 ‘markers’. That means that the sample from the car had been contaminated by DNA from another individual. However, with 15 markers all matching Madeleine’s DNA, that would still give analysts 99.9% confidence that the samples were from Madeleine.

The DNA of the degraded blood was found not to match with the DNA of the twins, Sean and Amelie.
The law differs from country to country as to how many out of an individual’s 19 DNA ‘markers’ are needed to prove that any DNA sample comes from that individual. Many countries accept 15 markers as sufficient proof. Under Portuguese law, however, the courts require all 19 markers to be confirmed.
This was ‘Low Copy Number’ DNA and so all 19 markers could not be obtained.

We might add here that when the British police cross-check the DNA of a suspect with its database said to consist of 2.5 million people who have been arrested on suspicion of a crime, they use only 10 markers in order to establish a DNA ‘match’. The scientist who invented DNA fingerprinting two decades ago, Professor Sir Alec Jeffreys, said however that using 10 markers to obtain a sufficiently reliable ‘match’ was insufficient proof. He went on to state that 15 markers would be provide sufficient evidence to be conclusive.

by **Ciggy** » Sun May 31, 2009 6:21 pm

woof woof ! wrote:Here's a thought, what if they're completely innocent of any wrong doing and they have to spend the rest of their lives living with Maddy's loss and the ongoing speculation by the press and EVEN some people on internet forums without any evidence whatsoever that they were somehow complicit in her disappearance .

Theres no evidence of an abduction either woof.

If you have time watch these vids.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html#aug12

by **woof woof !** » Sun May 31, 2009 8:44 pm

Ciggy wrote:Theres no evidence of an abduction either woof.

So, let me get this straight. Because there's no evidence of an abduction we should assume (without evidence) that her parents were responsible for her disappearance ? .

And Effes, a reluctance to codemn the parents of a missing child for her disappearance/murder without evidence is hardly taking the moral high ground .

by **dawson99** » Sun May 31, 2009 8:53 pm

The point of forums like this tho is to discuss what could or not have happened... hence we have threads on ufos, stuff like that

its basically just gossip and consipracy

for what its worth... i dunno what happened. i hate to say i dont trust the family... but i dont

but... i dunno, theres more to it than we know. maybe they were drunk at the time and were gone for longer than they said, but i seriously doubt they actually did it or anything

by **burjennio** » Sun May 31, 2009 9:06 pm

previously people gave opinions on this subject without knowing very much about it, but if all the evidence given in that book is true then its pretty damning, although as someone else mentioned its highly doubtful that all 9 of those people were in on it, unless they were up to all kinds of dodgy sh*t over there that no one wants out in the open

by **Kharhaz** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:34 am

Ciggy wrote:Looks like all the kids where together on the night if this is true what a turn of events, and why the bloody hell did that O'Brian fella leave his child and go back the bar if she had been vomitting? That doesnt make sense to me why would a parent leave a sick child? or a healthy one for that matter.

From Times OnlineOctober 9, 2007

McCann children 'were not alone in apartment'

Kate and Gerry McCann say there are innocent explanations for all the evidence

David Brown
Significant new evidence about the night Madeleine McCann disappeared has been uncovered, it was claimed, as one of Portugal’s most senior detectives took charge of the investigation.

Paulo Rebelo, an assistant national director of the Polícia Judiciária (PJ), took over responsibility for the case last night. He made his name in the investigation into Portugal’s most notorious paedophile ring.

His appointment was made amid reports in Portugal that detectives have evidence contradicting Kate and Gerry McCann's version of the events of the night that they reported their daughter missing.

Police believe that Madeleine and her twin brother and sister may not have been alone in the McCann holiday apartment, but that the children of seven British friends who were on holiday with the McCanns were also present when Madeleine disappeared on May 3, the 24 Horas newspaper claimed.

The McCanns, from Rothley, Leicestershire, have insisted that Madeleine was with only her two-year-old twin siblings, Sean and Amelie, while they dined with their friends at a tapas restaurant at the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz. The group has claimed that their children were in their own apartments and that they made checks on their own children and those of their friends during the evening.

However, a source within the investigation was quoted by 24 Horas as saying: “It’s not only the collected evidence that points to the fact that there were more children inside that [the McCanns'] apartment.

“Evidence also exists, following the interrogations to the other people who that were at the Ocean Club, that only the McCanns’ apartment was visited by the people who attended the dinner.”

The children had visited each other’s apartments regularly in the six days that they had been at the Ocean Club. The newspaper does not explain how any forensic evidence could be pinpointed to the evening of Madeleine’s disappearance.

The newspaper also casts doubt on claims by one of the McCanns’ friends that he was looking after his unwell daughter when he was away from the restaurant on the evening Madeleine disappeared.

It says that Russell O’Brien, a hospital consultant from Exeter, left the restaurant at 9.35pm and returned at 10pm, just minutes before Mrs McCann discovered that Madeleine was missing. Mr O’Brien has strenuously denied any involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance and has never been a formal suspect in the investigation.

24 Horas reported: “The British man guaranteed he took that long because he visited his sick daughter, and she vomited. He says he asked for the sheets to be changed, but the staff at the Ocean Club assured the investigators that nobody asked for any bedsheets to be changed that evening.”

Mr O’Brien’s partner, Jane Tanner, told police that she had seen a man carrying a girl away from the McCanns’ apartment at 9.15pm. However, another witness has insisted that she was not in the area at that time.

A source within the PJ is quoted by 24 Horas as saying: “In face of so many contradictions and in face of the forensics results that we already hold, we have very few doubts that the girl died inside that apartment, and we only have doubts about who concealed the corpse.”

The report follows claims in the British media that although tests on samples discovered in the McCanns’ apartment and hire car do not prove that Madeleine is dead, they have strengthened the theory that her parents were involved in her disappearance.

A source at the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham, which carried out the tests on behalf of the Portuguese authorities, is reported to have said that the results showed police were right to make the couple arguidos, or official suspects.

However, the McCanns’ British law firm, Kingsley Napley, has brought in its own forensic team to explain why the samples may be totally unconnected to Madeleine’s disappearance.

The couple insist that any DNA found in the Renault Scenic hired 25 days after Madeleine’s disappearance could have been transferred innocently from their daughter’s clothing when they moved to a new apartment.

Clarence Mitchell, the couple’s spokesman, said today: “Kate and Gerry have nothing to hide at all. They are perfectly happy to answer any of this, if it comes to it. There are wholly innocent explanations for anything the police may or may not have found."

Mr Mitchell said the couple were unable to grieve for Madeleine because they did not know yet what had happened to their daughter. “They need that knowledge whether Madeleine is alive or dead - let’s face it, she might be,” he said. “They need to know, before they can move on, before they can deal with that.

“In the absence of that hard information, they are doing what they can to, one, clear their names of these dreadful smears and, two, to actually get on with the job of finding her. That is the message we want to go to police in Portugal - ‘find Madeleine’.”

The couple hope that the appointment of a new head of the investigation will refocus the inquiry on finding their daughter. Mr Rebelo was appointed last night after the demotion of the previous lead investigator, Gonçalo Amaral, who had claimed that British police were being manipulated by Madeleine’s parents.

Mr Rebelo made his career at the Central Directory for the Investigation of Drug Trafficking before being appointed one of four associate directors of the PJ. He was head of the Criminal Investigation department in Lisbon when it uncovered a notorious paedophile ring. The “Casa Pia” ring had been abusing boys at state-run children’s homes for decades before being uncovered in 2002. Those alleged to have been involved included senior politicians, a former ambassador, celebrities and wealthy businessmen.

Mr Rebelo was described by colleagues as “highly regarded internally, he has done some excellent work for the PJ, he is nice and a good communicator”. He is close to the PJ’s national director, Alípio Ribeiro.

Quoting this from 2 years ago. Ciggy was right on top of all the reports on madelaine. Everything in the report that raises doubts, just look through this topic. I stuck up for the parents and condemned them, but looking back (isnt hindsight a wonderful thing?) Everything about her being abducted stinks. Im leaning more towards the she is dead, she has been murdered. But by who?

Many questions were raised with the behaviour of the parents. I would have acted like a madman, trying to find my kid(s) if they went missing, they didnt. Many things in the report that effes raised actually happened. And at the time as much as I tried to defend the parents after the event, their behaviour was strange.

Out of interest, what is happening now with this case? or has it been abandoned?

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