Liverpool FC Forum

by **Diego 10** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:04 pm

I am a fan of the Juve and I would want to make you the compliments for your team and to say you that us juventini we don't put aside grudge, rather we would be very happy if there pits a twinship among the two tifoseries

Bye

by **redhayesy** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:14 pm

Reg wrote:RIP with sincere, sincere condolences.

This tragedy has been haunting me of late. We expect full support for Hillsborough but it seems dont know how to handle Heysel.

The time is coming when we have to reconcile the happenings of that night and truely get together with Juventus to pay proper homage to those who lost their lives in such an un-necessary and violent way. Regardless of the stadium, the incompetent fan segregation and disorganisation of the police - it should never have happened - it was initiated by the fans.

I would like to see the club take a lead on this and outline a number of events and timeframe to bring this terrible event into the open so proper reconciliation can take place in respectful ways that satisfy mainly Juventus as a club and fanbase that we havent forgotten nor try to avoid the blame for what happened. Regardless of any build up prior to the wall collapsing, 39 Juve fans died which is totally, totally unacceptable. LFC owes it to Juventus to make amends, just as we expect justice out of Hillsborough.

Just my penny´s worth.

yes mate very good post, hillsborough our clubs sadest day, heysel our clubs darkess worst day,Lfc & all connected with the club i believe have & always will recognise that fact. as i have said before mate it's all about education in our history, alot of people on this forum need to understand that straight away.

then & only then will the next generation of LFC fans learn from the right people for guidence, & not just be glory hunters. that's what seperates LFC from all other clubs.

by **redhayesy** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:38 pm

i still also believe to this day that rushy's transfer to juventus was on our part some way to try & make peace with juve, i know that it will never compansate for the loss of life,injury,traumer etc that happened, please forgive me i'm not very good at expressing what i want to say on a keyboard etc, but i truley believe LFC did address the issue fullon at the time with remorse,respect for the loss of lives, & did all they could to show compassion towards juventus FC.

people can say all they like about ian rush's transfer to juventus, for me it was an olive branch that was fully accepted by juventus, & as a result helped build bridges between the two clubs which was a small but sugnifficant step in respect of the two clubs sharing a great tradgedy.

we remember & never forget the 39 people that lost their lives that night.

by **NANNY RED** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:43 pm

I was there that dreadful night and as Reg has said every step must be taken by EUFA to make sure this never never happens again ,

R.I.P OUR 39 FOOTBALL FAMILY. Im sorry

by **Reg** » Fri May 29, 2009 11:04 pm

In that regard Nan, Uefa's decision to hold this years final in Rome with the long history of crowd trouble both inside and outside the stadium was a despicable decision and once again only demonstrates their incompetence and corruption.

by **Kharhaz** » Fri May 29, 2009 11:22 pm

Reg wrote:In that regard Nan, Uefa's decision to hold this years final in Rome with the long history of crowd trouble both inside and outside the stadium was a despicable decision and once again only demonstrates their incompetence and corruption.

Lets not forget the one in greece regarding Liverpool fans and the problems there. Also in france when man united played there, trouble in the crowd. And leeds united when they played in turkey and a couple of fans got stabbed. No, lessons have not been learned. And nor will they.

by **Owzat** » Sat May 30, 2009 9:19 am

RUSHIE#9 wrote:No matter how many times the state of the stadium is brought up or the poor organisation of the whole evening we have to accept that actions of "Liverpool Fans" on that night contributed to the deaths of 39 people.

I don't think anyone is denying that it was the actions of people that contributed directly/caused the deaths, but it should never have been played at that stadium. Most "fans" prosecuted faced manslaughter charges, had it been played elsewhere with less irresponsible ticketing arrangements and poor policing and fan control then most of the deaths, if not all, could have been avoided.

I post this extract from wikipedia not merely to highlight the contributing factors, but hopefully to raise awareness of what actually happened. Apologies to anyone who finds reading it upsetting, it is not intended for that purpose. I am not trying to excuse the actions of the "fans" on that tragic night.

Despite its status as Belgium's national stadium, Heysel Stadium was not a suitable venue for a match such as the European Cup Final. The 55-year-old stadium had not been well maintained for several years, and large parts of the stadium were crumbling. Liverpool players and fans later said that they were shocked at the abject conditions of the ground, despite reports from Arsenal fans that the stadium was a "dump" when the Gunners played there a few years earlier. Liverpool CEO Peter Robinson urged UEFA to choose another venue, to no avail.

The stadium was crammed with 58,000–60,000 supporters, with more than 25,000 for each team. The two ends behind the goals comprised all-standing terraces, each end split into three zones. The Juventus end was O, N and M. At the other end Liverpool were allocated X and Y, with the Z section (to one side) being reserved for neutral Belgian fans. The idea of this large neutral area was opposed by both Liverpool and Juventus, as it would provide an opportunity for fans of both clubs to obtain tickets from agencies or from ticket touts outside the ground and thus create a dangerous mix of fans.

At the time Brussels, like the rest of Belgium, already had a large Italian community, and many expatriate Juventus fans bought the section Z tickets. Added to this, many tickets were bought up and sold by travel agents, mainly to Juventus fans. A small percentage of the tickets ended up in the hands of Liverpool fans.

To add to the tension, the Liverpool X and Y sections were overcrowded after many fans managed to get in without tickets (through lack of patrol).

At approximately 7 p.m. local time, an hour before kick-off, the trouble started. The Liverpool and Juventus supporters in sections Y and Z stood merely yards apart. The boundary between the two was marked by temporary chain link fencing and a central thinly-policed no-man's land. Missiles began to be thrown across the divide. Fans could pick up stones from the terraces beneath them.

As kick-off approached, the throwing became more intense. A group of Liverpool fans charged across the terraces, through and over the wire fence into section Z causing the Juventus fans to retreat. Having no way out, the Juventus fans moved towards the side perimeter wall, near to the corner flag. Some tried to climb over the wall to escape. Many escaped, however the wall could not withstand the force of the fleeing Italian supporters and collapsed.

It was at this point that the majority of the deaths occurred — 39 people died, and a further 600 were injured. Bodies were carried away on sections of iron fencing and laid in piles outside, covered with giant football flags. As police and medical helicopters flew in, the down-draught blew away the modest coverings. The situation became chaotic.

In retaliation for the events in section Z, Juventus fans then rioted at their end of the stadium. They advanced down the stadium running track towards the Liverpool supporters seeking confrontation, but police intervention stopped the advance. The Juventus fans fought the police with rocks, bottles and missiles for two hours. One even fired a pistol (later verified as being a starting pistol). When the game eventually kicked off, riot police were still fighting a pitched battle with Juventus supporters, and they maintained a presence around the entire pitch for the duration of the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heysel_Stadium_Disaster

Blame lies primarily on the fans whose actions lead directly to tragedy, but the game should never have been played there. Had the stadium not been in such poor condition the wall would not have collapsed. In a solid stadium with proper policing and ticket control there probably wouldn't have been any deaths.

As for Rome, they do have regular trouble but I gather most if not all of the stabbings are aimed not to be fatal (unlike Turkey)

Unfortunately lessons always seemed to be learned only when tragedy strikes. Blame is laid at someone's door, few people actually are made to pay for offences, and I myself was previously unaware that some of those arrested had previous convictions for football related violence, in this day and age they would (or should) be banned from games.

And why are so few commenting? Perhaps because it is a sensitive area, many probably don't know the details and maybe weren't Liverpool fans back then. It is a shame more people don't find out the truth behind tragedies like this and Hillsborough

Several Juventus players and supporters have expressed unhappiness with the way Juventus dealt with the incident, in that they displayed the trophy in their trophy cabinet straight after the game, and didn't do enough to help the bereaved families, for example, not having any kind of memorial to the supporters who died. Despite efforts by Liverpool F.C. and sections of the media to suggest otherwise, the majority of Juventus supporters have never forgiven the Liverpool supporters for their actions at Heysel and have displayed these sentiments on many occasions since.

Some Liverpool players and supporters feel that it was wrong to blame the disaster solely on Liverpool supporters. They believe other factors, such as the ticketing arrangements and inadequate policing, contributed to the events. As mentioned above, Liverpool players and supporters also argue that despite no fatalities from hundreds of previous games, by then it was crumbling and inadequate for a major football match; indeed, Liverpool's "official" account of the disaster implies that it would have never happened had UEFA staged it at any other available ground. The fact that there was never an official inquiry also raised eyebrows.

A number of commentators have questioned Liverpool's handling of the disaster, particularly in comparison to high profile 'Justice for the 96' campaign fought after the Hillsborough Disaster - Liverpool Football Club has never accepted culpability, or responsibility for the actions of its fans and has never formally apologised for the events or compensated the families of those killed.although in 2005 the Liverpool Echo published a front page emblazoned with the words 'We're Sorry' reflecting a widespread opinion that the fans of Liverpool Football Club were the main culprits and had brought shame upon the city.

Liverpool FC does not choose its supporters, I don't see why it should "accept culpability" for the actions of people choosing to support the club and attend matches. Does that mean the government should accept culpability for everyone who commits murder or manslaughter in this country?

We have to accept that "fans" of our club were involved and contributed to the tragedy, the problem is if you cite other contributing factors everyone assumes automatically you are trying to shift blame when in fact people are trying simply to give the whole picture and not just a simplistic "some Liverpool fans killed some Juventus fans" There was no intention to kill, and deaths were very much avoidable. Same fans, different stadium could well have had a different outcome and that was the point trying to be made

by **terradinessuno** » Sat May 30, 2009 11:54 am

Ciao io sono Domenico Laudadio, curatore del sito www.saladellamemoriaheysel.it
Vi prego di leggere la pagina che ho dedicato a voi... "TO REDS"
Ci state a creare un topic comune tra i nostri due forums per parlare un pò ?

Hello I am Domenico Laudadio, curator of the site www.saladellamemoriaheysel.it
Please read the page that I dedicated to you ... "TO REDS"
We are creating a common topic between the two forums to talk a bit?[U]

by **NANNY RED** » Sat May 30, 2009 12:02 pm

Theres no page found lad

by **terradinessuno** » Sat May 30, 2009 12:07 pm

Ok...Sorry..repeat please...

by **terradinessuno** » Sat May 30, 2009 12:18 pm

www.saladellamemoriaheysel.it[B]

by **Ciggy** » Sat May 30, 2009 1:04 pm

terradinessuno wrote:www.saladellamemoriaheysel.it[B]

Nice touch mate, thanx

by **Reg** » Sat May 30, 2009 2:32 pm

Owzat wrote:The fact that there was never an official inquiry also raised eyebrows.

Good post Owzat and thanks for the trouble you took to research and comment.

Its true LFC cant choose its fans but it does control a large portion of the ticket sales. Admittedly this is more tightly controlled these days.

The government is ultimately responsible for the behaviour of nationals overseas so this does fall under their jurisdiction, hence after this tragedy they started banning known troublemakers from travelling overseas.

I'm very surprised by the comment there wasnt an official enquiry - on what evidence were British clubs banned from europe then, tv footage and opinion? I suspect the coroner would have demanded an enquiry and the UK manslaughter trials would have used evidence from an enquiry surely?

I would question UEFA's criteria in awarding big games to cities and stadiums and question whether internal politics, big picture politics and 'looking after your mates' still over shadows safty concerns in choosing the best stadium. I repeat the comment from a good friend inside UEFA told me after the Athens final that 3 months before the final, the Greeks CANCELLED the order for gate turnstyles - and that UEFA were aware of it and didnt object.

I dont expect a club to pay compensation (though it would be dearly appreciated by the families) as that would be a de facto admittance of guilt, but as the event involved our club we should play charity games to erect memorials at both clubs and at Heysel. Maybe Juventus have a fund to help the families or have a committee similar to our 96 set up that helps the families that LFC could also contribute to.

We cant bring the lost ones back but we can demonstrate our regret and wish to reconcile between both sets of fans.

Surely this issue is as relevant as the 96 in all honesty.

by **tonyeh** » Sat May 30, 2009 4:17 pm

however the wall could not withstand the force of the fleeing Italian supporters and collapsed.

It was at this point that the majority of the deaths occurred — 39 people died,

There's seems to be a difference of opinion on that matter. Some say that the majority of people who died, died BEFORE the wall collapsed. Crushed and suffocated under the weight of the fleeing Juve supporters, who found themselves being packed in "...like sardines" as one guy put it.

The wall collapsing, probably saved lives as it acted as a release valve. The Juve supporters who were fleeing the situation actually had somewhere to go at that point.

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