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by **Big Niall** » Wed May 27, 2009 11:03 am

We know little about the universe. the only other planet we really know anything about is mars. That planet had water and bacteria. There is every chance it had life.

Whether you believe in god or not, it is hard not to argue that out of the millions of other planets, we are the only ones to ever have life on ours.

Surely, we all agree on that?

by **Sabre** » Wed May 27, 2009 11:10 am

Unfortunately there are no bacteria in Mars (not found at least), but there have been water and there's still water in the poles. A bacteria is a pretty complex being and it would have been massive to find one in Mars.

As for the other planets, right now we know there are planets around other stars, not only because we assume it, but because we measure the impact the gravity of those planets have in their stars. We know aswell through the spectre of light that those planets are some of them gas giants like Jupiter, and others rocky as ours.

There's little doubt the universe must be crowded with life, and there's even an equation that stimates how many populated planets there are only in our galaxy right now. The math chance of us being the only ones having life is minimal. Life can be rare in terms of a solar system, but not in terms of the Universe and it's trillions stars.

We're not the center of the universe and Jesus was pretty spot on when he said his Kingdom is not of this World -- meaning I don't believe we're especial nor the people of God.

by **burjennio** » Wed May 27, 2009 1:57 pm

JoeTerp wrote:
burjennio wrote:I see a man who, the further his work has progressed the more his total commitment to the science of evolutionary theory has merged with his increasingly rabid percecution of modern day religions in doing so has created a religion of his own, Neo-Darwinism, or Dawkinism and in doing so (especially in the God Dellusion) has mixed science and faith

what do you mean has created a religion of his own?

If anything he has shown that science and faith do not mix. They are very much the opposite of each other. He is simply saying that religious beliefs should not get a special pass JUST BECAUSE they are someones religious beliefs. ESPECIALLY when those beliefs lead to policies that have a negative effect on people's everyday lives.

But do you not agree that when he starts putting forward ideas that we are not in fact real, and that our conciousness is merely an illusion that he is expressing a belief and not proven science?

Evolution is a sure fit, but I cant agree that the process of evolution was started totally out of nothing. Its a big leap to go from showing how life has progressed to saying matter of factly how it began all I can confidently state is that no religion in the world has got it right because the sheer vastness of the universe is impossible for the human mind to comprehend, let alone how it came into existance (yes the big bang, again the process not the cause). Also, many physicists now believe in the parallel universe theory, based heavily on their understanding (or rather total lack of) of particles behaviour at the quantum level. Surely some of the biggest minds in the world are taking a pretty big leap of faith on that one?

If there is no reason for life to exist then it is no more valuable than a piece of rock, a speck of dust of a giant steaming turd. We would be nothing more than a curious anomaly that the universe would be better off erasing before it totally takes the natural order and sh*ts all over it. If you say "But we are the natural order, evolution was meant to happen like that" then you are voicing a belief and stating that the universe is therefore operating under a pre-ordained determination and that my friend is for all intensive purposes God (not the literal "Christian God", more in the "chief programmer at Windows Vista" sense)

This cr*p keeps me up at night. Seriously.

And JoeTerp, If Richard Dawkins is "Darwins rottweiler" are you "Dawkins Dalmation?"

by **andy_g** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:54 pm

lets get back on topic here - was the universe created by a superior intelligence or not?

lets say that i decide that the universe is far too complicated, and random, and impossible and coincidental that it can't possible have come into existence all on its own. so i have to come to the conclusion that it was created by a superior intelligence. cool, all my problems are solved - anything i can't explain i just attribute to the superior intelligence who created and everything in it.

but now i'm faced with a bigger problem. i've decided that the universe is too complex to have formed 'naturally' so it must have been created by this very very powerful, very very intelligent being that existed before the universe did.

but where the fuck did it come from?

by **andy_g** » Wed May 27, 2009 6:11 pm

niall, we know little of the physical properties of the universe but we actually know a lot about the planets in the solar system. mars is probably the one we know best (if we discount the moon), but we sent probes into orbit or for close passes of all of them except pluto and have also landed things on venus, our moon, mars, and titan (one of the moons of saturn).

there has been no evidence of life found anywhere, although the things that resembled microbe fossils in the martian rock got people excited for a while.

the equation that sabre is referring to is the drake equation. which goes (deep breath):
he number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible = the average rate of star formation per year in our galaxy X the fraction of those stars that have planets X the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets X the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point X the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life X the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space X the length of time such civilizations release detectable signals into space

the problem is that the variables are all very variable and open to considerable tweaking. some people have used the equation to prove that life is definitely out there in abundance and others have used it to prove that its just us.

by **Number 9** » Wed May 27, 2009 7:03 pm

andy_g wrote:lets get back on topic here - was the universe created by a superior intelligence or not?

lets say that i decide that the universe is far too complicated, and random, and impossible and coincidental that it can't possible have come into existence all on its own. so i have to come to the conclusion that it was created by a superior intelligence. cool, all my problems are solved - anything i can't explain i just attribute to the superior intelligence who created and everything in it.

but now i'm faced with a bigger problem. i've decided that the universe is too complex to have formed 'naturally' so it must have been created by this very very powerful, very very intelligent being that existed before the universe did.

but where the fuck did it come from?

See that does yer head in!!

People say the big bang and all that which is all good,but then where did the components of the big bang come from?
There had to be something here before that happened to create a bang..right!

So where did they come from..and who put them there,and if it was something or someone!Who the feck made it/them?

even if there was at one time just a big vast eternal space of nothingness..it is still something!If there was nothing in it..how are we all here!

Fuc'k that,ya end up thinking yourself inside out!!

by **andy_g** » Wed May 27, 2009 10:22 pm

exactly. but i really need to know how the intelligent designer got there. or else i won't be able to sleep.

by **dawson99** » Wed May 27, 2009 10:32 pm

The grand designer is omnipotent... always was, always will be. To know there was no beginning... means you must have faith...

Or, like some believe, it's a massive circle, re-incarnation... or maybe even re-living the same life again and again until you do it right... thats why people have de ja vous... if you are really bad you come back as something worse, a man utd fan or something... us here must have done something right previsouly as we are liverpool fans

not to be confused with impotent before any jokes start

by **JoeTerp** » Thu May 28, 2009 12:07 am

it may well be that the universe is a cycle and that there have been many big bangs followed by big rips which then lead to big bangs etc. Either way when theories start out with the beginning it is usually asked, well what happened before that? I am not sure why people think that is a deal-breaking question. What is north of the north pole? nothing. What was before the beginning of the universe? there was never a time before the begining of the universe, thats why it is called the begining of the universe. Unless of course your talking about muliverses and such, but in that case just apply the same concept to the mulitverse.

And to say that physics use faith in the same way that religions do about their hypothesis of the universe is way off the mark.

by **Kharhaz** » Thu May 28, 2009 1:42 am

dawson99 wrote:The grand designer is omnipotent... always was, always will be. To know there was no beginning... means you must have faith...

Or, like some believe, it's a massive circle, re-incarnation... or maybe even re-living the same life again and again until you do it right... thats why people have de ja vous... if you are really bad you come back as something worse, a man utd fan or something... us here must have done something right previsouly as we are liverpool fans

not to be confused with impotent before any jokes start

But it hits home one belief to be compared with a non - belief. The Deja Vu doo dah. We have all experienced it. Something we have done before but cannot recollect it. Its like fate, good luck or bad luck. We also suffer that. We refuse to believe religions, gods and the like, but always there is a force that interfers with everyones life. Nobody has a qualified answer that can satisfy everyones need for knowledge. All we can do is accept our own beliefs. Mine being, there is no jesus, there is no god, but there is fate. I, like everyone suffer from the deja vu and the good and bad luck, and that cannot be explained. Can I believe in ghosts? no. Can I believe in Aliens? yes, that seems more plausible, more likely.

There is a force at work, but none of us can put our finger on what that source is.

by **burjennio** » Thu May 28, 2009 5:41 pm

This is little off topic from the original post but I just watched "Religulous", an anti-religion documentary put together by an American comedian called Bill Maher. Some of it comes across very well in showing some of the absolute nonsense involved in alot of the mainstream religions, other times it comes across like a bad Borat rip off, editing interviews with blinkered zealots and unnecessarily making them look even worse, you would do nothing but laugh at these wack-jobs anyway, so at times Maher comes across like nothing more than petty a$$hole. Anyway its a good watch but their is no stream so you may have to download it from one of those sites Dawson99 hates so much (eg Pirate Bay)

by **Big Niall** » Thu May 28, 2009 7:00 pm

dawson99 wrote:The grand designer is omnipotent... always was, always will be. To know there was no beginning... means you must have faith...

Or, like some believe, it's a massive circle, re-incarnation... or maybe even re-living the same life again and again until you do it right... thats why people have de ja vous... if you are really bad you come back as something worse, a man utd fan or something... us here must have done something right previsouly as we are liverpool fans

not to be confused with impotent before any jokes start

didn't glen hoddle get sacked for saying those religious beliefs.

and no PC nonsense about being handicapped in any way isn't necessarily a bad thing, of course life is tougher if you are born paralysed or mentally disabled,blind,deaf etc.

is that bad karma???

I obviously believe not.

by **Number 9** » Thu May 28, 2009 7:02 pm

Just thinking.....If God made the world(if there is a god) then who the feck made him!!

by **kalos** » Thu May 28, 2009 8:48 pm

Where did God (the designer) come from? He must always have been there - which admittedly is another mind bender...however at school we had no problem with:

First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another

So the source of that energy, reasonably cannot be created or destroyed so has always been there... my minds boggling now.lol

by **andy_g** » Thu May 28, 2009 10:09 pm

so you, the guy with all the scientific proof for why the universe and life on earth couldn't have been a result of the big bang, respond to a question about the origin your creator with "he must always have been there".

i'm not convinced.

and there is no contradiction with the first law of thermodynamics. all the matter and energy within the universe was contained within the pre big bang singularity. its hard to get your head around, i know, but its a damned site better than "he must always have been there".

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