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by **kalos** » Mon May 25, 2009 7:02 pm

Bavlondon said You guys should read "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. Brilliant book.

I have - pointless book as in the preface(at least in my copy 20 years ago) he likens it to science fiction. And the book never bothers to even attempt to explain how genes arrived in the first place from non living matter..

by **kalos** » Mon May 25, 2009 7:09 pm

Big Niall asked : I am curious though why you believe in god?

The evidence in the world /Universe of an awesome intellect. The mathematics, physics and engineering precision in the physical world is only just being understood by the greatest minds on the planet.

That to me shows someone with an infinitely greater intellect than theirs started it all off.

If you've read Dawkins stuff I reckon you owe it to yourself to read Darwins Black Box by Michael Behe to at least hear the other side of the argument.. which in my opinion is far more reasonable than the evolution theory(ies).

by **tubby** » Mon May 25, 2009 8:23 pm

You have to take all popular science with a pinch of salt kalos.

by **Igor Zidane** » Mon May 25, 2009 9:05 pm

I'm not a Darwinist ,but i am a Dawsonist . Aye

by **andy_g** » Mon May 25, 2009 10:27 pm

kalos wrote:andyg said :

the talk about things happening by chance is fairly irrelevent. these things happened - however, we know its unusual for them to happen as we haven't seen it happen anywhere else yet

And that sums up the reason why I can't accept evolution as something to take seriously.

An insistence that these things happened with no proof or hard evidence. We haven't seen it happen but it did ! Sound exactly like religion to me - there's very little difference except that when it boils down to brass tacks we all know from our experience in life that nothing comes about by itself- cause and effect if you will.

Whereas EVERYTHING in life that we experience shows the opposite- order and precision reuire an intelligence or a designer. Intelligent Design fits what our own life experience shows us every day.

andyg also said:-

your last statement about the order of the big bang and the lack of order of the h-bomb explosions is pointless bol,locks, i might add.

Really ? It's actually the biggest bang ever seen by the majority on earth (except maybe Debbie Does Dallas but that's a different thread? )

So that's the one I'll use as a reference point. Simple logic and reason (which fly out the window when it comes to macroevolution) and your own eyes tell you that an explosion that is uncontrolled and has no guiding force produces chaos not order - but you'll try to tell us otherwise when it has NEVER been observed , cannot be fully explianed and then try to tell us evolution is not a faith.

you can't accept evolution, or the natural occurrence of life on earth, as chance and you can't take it seriously but you can accept the existence of a supreme creator?

i accept that much of the science that deals with the spontaneous creation of the universe, evolution, and all the other things creationists find hard to deal with is theory. as theory it is constantly being tested and of course at times the theory is found to be flawed and is thus modified to accommodate new knowledge. science is a process of discovery not a series of cold facts.

in my opinion the dismissal of evolution and the big bang because current science cannot prove them 100% is ridiculous. there are centuries of scientific work which has built up an enourmous body of evidence to support these theories but none that has supported intelligent design.

i still maintain that the bomb analogy is ridiculous. of course an explosion will create chaos and devastation when there are things in the way to get broken. the explosion of the big bang had nothing to hit, nothing to break. and it did actually take billions of years for order to emerge out of the resulting chaos. a process that is still not finished, maybe never will be.

describing an adherence to the theory/theories of evolution is hardly the same as faith in the religious sense. its the result of being exposed to evidence that supports the theory. if i am ever exposed to a shred of evidence for intelligent design i will begin to take it seriously as a possible explanation for us being here. i'm not holding my breath though.

here's some questions for you;
do you believe that the earth is 6000 years old or 4.5 billion years old? do you believe that mass extinctions were caused by a huge flood? do you believe we have not evolved from apes? how do you correlate the evidence for continued development of species after mass extinctions if all life was made at the same time by a supreme creator?

by **andy_g** » Mon May 25, 2009 10:29 pm

kalos wrote:Big Niall asked : I am curious though why you believe in god?

The evidence in the world /Universe of an awesome intellect. The mathematics, physics and engineering precision in the physical world is only just being understood by the greatest minds on the planet.

That to me shows someone with an infinitely greater intellect than theirs started it all off.

or does it show that we still don't understand it yet and there is still lots of work to be done?

by **Sabre** » Mon May 25, 2009 11:43 pm

andy_g wrote:
kalos wrote:Big Niall asked : I am curious though why you believe in god?

The evidence in the world /Universe of an awesome intellect. The mathematics, physics and engineering precision in the physical world is only just being understood by the greatest minds on the planet.

That to me shows someone with an infinitely greater intellect than theirs started it all off.

or does it show that we still don't understand it yet and there is still lots of work to be done?

There's no doubt that there's a lot to be done and if I was Obama I'd increase the scientific research money.

However, science has frontieres, and there will be things that it's safe to say that science will never respond.

Science will one day explain, and not only describe, how a mass attracts another. Science will probably imitate with success the chemical reactions the sun does in order to provide energy and that currently are only achieved in certain environments.

But science will crash when you ask it why the universe exists. It will explain how and when started but not why. And if something exists, why has it so beautiful rules. Why not it be just a mess with no rules. If you remove a God out of the equation, then we can count ourselves infinitely and ridiculously lucky. What a marvelous universe luck has given us!.

It's impossible to prove the existance of God, but so is to prove the opposite. If someone disagrees, I'm happy to read why.

by **JoeTerp** » Mon May 25, 2009 11:55 pm

Sabre wrote:
andy_g wrote:
kalos wrote:Big Niall asked : I am curious though why you believe in god?

The evidence in the world /Universe of an awesome intellect. The mathematics, physics and engineering precision in the physical world is only just being understood by the greatest minds on the planet.

That to me shows someone with an infinitely greater intellect than theirs started it all off.

or does it show that we still don't understand it yet and there is still lots of work to be done?

There's no doubt that there's a lot to be done and if I was Obama I'd increase the scientific research money.

However, science has frontieres, and there will be things that it's safe to say that science will never respond.

Science will one day explain, and not only describe, how a mass attracts another. Science will probably imitate with success the chemical reactions the sun does in order to provide energy and that currently are only achieved in certain environments.

But science will crash when you ask it why the universe exists. It will explain how and when started but not why. And if something exists, why has it so beautiful rules. Why not it be just a mess with no rules. If you remove a God out of the equation, then we can count ourselves infinitely and ridiculously lucky. What a marvelous universe luck has given us!.

It's impossible to prove the existance of God, but so is to prove the opposite. If someone disagrees, I'm happy to read why.

link

by **Emerald Red** » Tue May 26, 2009 12:38 am

dawson99 wrote:
kalos wrote:Space didnt start off infinite though Dawson and that's where the supposition that there was a "chance" becomes fallacious. All the evidencr points to the Universe starting as an inifitesimally small place and expanding at the fanatastically high speed -

The Universe is apparently still expanding:

""When galactic light was passed through a prism, the light waves were seen to be stretched, indicating motion away from us at great speed. The more distant a galaxy, the faster it appeared to be receding. That points to an expanding universe!""

What is it expanding into then?

If Space is finite, so whats at the end?

Space is infiinite. It's Space that isn't expanding, rather the matter in between that is. They say, however, that one day it will start to collaps in on itself again, leading eventually to the end of all, or even perhaps a rebirth. It's just recently been put across in a theory that at the centre of every galaxy there is an ominious black hole. Some of these black holes are inert, meaning they are not feeding, and those that are feeding are the galaxies that are receeding rather than expanding. It's through this understanding that scientists have learned how the Universe was created in the first place. It's facinating stuff. I've been into astrology since I was a kid. Always interested me.

As for evolution: again another theory. A facinating one that makes perfect sense, though it's where the initial spark that started it all is the one thing that is yet to be put into a theory. We'll never know.

by **Emerald Red** » Tue May 26, 2009 12:48 am

Einstein - probably the most brilliant mind there was. A great advocate of faith and God. He found something that was thought impossible or otherwise didn't exist: the discovery of atoms, and other subatomic matter like neons, leptons, femeons and quarks. Not only did he know they were there, but he also knew of their properties and what would happen should you split one of the f*ckers. He did go too far, however, when he tried to figure out God's sh*t with his Theory Of Everything, which eventually ran him into the ground and subsequently made him a laughing stock. God doesn't play dice.

by **JoeTerp** » Tue May 26, 2009 1:21 am

Emerald Red wrote:Einstein - probably the most brilliant mind there was. A great advocate of faith and God.

huh?

by **Emerald Red** » Tue May 26, 2009 1:35 am

JoeTerp wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:Einstein - probably the most brilliant mind there was. A great advocate of faith and God.

huh?

What? He did believe in God, or in "a God". He was a spiritual person. Not least in the later years of his life. He tried to find God through a theory, and he fell flat on his face over it.

by **JoeTerp** » Tue May 26, 2009 2:04 am

"at best" you could say he was a scientific pantheist But there is a HUGE difference between a theistic God and what Einstein "believed" in

by **Big Niall** » Tue May 26, 2009 9:31 am

If I say that my beautiful back garden is the work of a dancing leprauchaun that only I have the "faith" to see. Nobody here can prove that my dancing leprauchaun does not exist.

Surely the burden of proof should on me.

by **dawson99** » Tue May 26, 2009 9:32 am

Big Niall wrote:
dawson99 wrote:
kalos wrote:Space didnt start off infinite though Dawson and that's where the supposition that there was a "chance" becomes fallacious. All the evidencr points to the Universe starting as an inifitesimally small place and expanding at the fanatastically high speed -

The Universe is apparently still expanding:

""When galactic light was passed through a prism, the light waves were seen to be stretched, indicating motion away from us at great speed. The more distant a galaxy, the faster it appeared to be receding. That points to an expanding universe!""

What is it expanding into then?

If Space is finite, so whats at the end?

I've never really understood the universe, infinity and all that stuff either.

I am curious though why you believe in god. I realise nobody likes the idea of never seeing their dead loved ones again, or even the idea of their own death can scare some people, or the idea that evil bas*ards who go through this life without facing justice will get their punishment but I don't see any evidence.

While the idea of god is comforting, there is no evidence of a god, I am not even talking about proof just a probability or even a possibility.

God is about faith, not science.
I just believe there is al ot more out there, some call it a supreme being, some call it whatever, its my belief, which i say is awesome

and saying the burden of proof.. proove there isnt a god then, you can't, it's impossible. It's all about what you believe... but to think what happened to us and everything was just pure chance with no greater explanation is just naieve

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