Liverpool FC Forum

by **GYBS** » Fri May 22, 2009 3:28 pm

then i hope we dont blow our budget on a player who isnt needed - the other problems areas arent as crucial as the one area that we really need - an extra creative player . Get silva for 20 mil etc then get a right back and sorted . Or Tevez for 25 mil ish and use darby more often - the sqaud is not that bad - just need an extra option going forwrard

by **aCe'** » Fri May 22, 2009 3:36 pm

here we go..

Dossena -5mill
Skrtel -8mill
Pennant -0
Leto -2mill
Mascherano -20mill
Babel -10mill
Voronin -5mill
Hobbs - ??
Anderson - ??

Say we get 20-30mill from the owner, which is a minimum i would think given that we've sold Keane without using the money in the last transfer window... that would give us 70-80 mill to spend... (from sales above, without the Hobbs and Anderson deals and without any other kids being sold..etc )

for me.. id use that money to bring in:

RB - 10-15mill (Srna, Rafinha, Johnson..)
CB - 10mill (Albiol, chivu, Mexes...)
Barry - 5-10mill
Silva or Robben - 20mill or so...
Owen - Bossman

Thats 45-55mill spent from a possible 70-80mill budget...
best case: we'd still have 35mill to spend with pretty much all areas of the squad sorted..
worst case: we'd still have 15mill to spend with pretty much all areas of the squad sorted..

The starting lineup would be something like this..

Reina

Rafinha Carra Mexes Aurelio

Alonso Barry

Kuyt Gerrard Silva

Torres

subs: Cavalieri, Agger, Arbeloa, Insua, Lucas, Benayoun, Riera, Owen... doesnt look too bad now does it ?!

Now, before i get all the FM bullsht and all that... i know this is never going to happen... we'll probably sell Alonso and end up bringing in Johnson and Barry and some other average player we'll all whine about and some would try to defend saying he works hard and he'll improve and all the crrap... but comeon... in all seriousness...

Babel should go..
Alonso shouldnt, if we need to sell a big player for big money, it should be Mascherano...
Dossena should go..
Lucas can stay as backup ..
Voronin should go...
Leto... anyone remember him ?!
Skrtel and Agger are both not good enough yet.. if i had to chose id pick Agger but if we can bring in a top class CB now then why wait...

thats 50mill in playerrs sold right there...

by **GYBS** » Fri May 22, 2009 3:40 pm

And another summer of mass changing of playing staff as opposed to the little tweeks required to push on that extra place . Two players i think we need and two only .

by **aCe'** » Fri May 22, 2009 3:57 pm

GYBS wrote:And another summer of mass changing of playing staff as opposed to the little tweeks required to push on that extra place . Two players i think we need and two only .

Wouldnt really call it massive changing... not like the players i suggested we sell had any big impact on our season now have they... I'v always said that Rafas main shortcoming to me was that he never built on a winning formation or squad... The whole Sissoko then finnan thing...

The way i see it... If we are bound to lose a big player then we might aswell sell Mascherano instead of Alonso...

Skrtel and Agger and Hyypia all played CB this season so its not like that position is settled or anything... Certainly bringing in a new CB wouldnt affect out 'spine' or whatever you wanna call it...

new RB... Wouldnt think thats a position that would need a whole lot of settling into...

LW... everyones calling for Silva... we'd have to find him a spot in the side...

backupo forward...

We'd still have the main players from this season so im guessing we can slowly bed the new signings in ...

by **heimdall** » Fri May 22, 2009 4:04 pm

aCe' wrote:
GYBS wrote:And another summer of mass changing of playing staff as opposed to the little tweeks required to push on that extra place . Two players i think we need and two only .

Wouldnt really call it massive changing... not like the players i suggested we sell had any big impact on our season now have they... I'v always said that Rafas main shortcoming to me was that he never built on a winning formation or squad... The whole Sissoko then finnan thing...

The way i see it... If we are bound to lose a big player then we might aswell sell Mascherano instead of Alonso...

Skrtel and Agger and Hyypia all played CB this season so its not like that position is settled or anything... Certainly bringing in a new CB wouldnt affect out 'spine' or whatever you wanna call it...

new RB... Wouldnt think thats a position that would need a whole lot of settling into...

LW... everyones calling for Silva... we'd have to find him a spot in the side...

backupo forward...

We'd still have the main players from this season so im guessing we can slowly bed the new signings in ...

I agree that it wouldn't be such massive changes but I prefer Mascha to Alonso. Mascha is essential in tight defensive games. Alonso IS a great playes (please take note that I said that GYBS) but if we can get a good amount of money for him which will allow us to strengthen problem areas (which does not include midfield in my opinion) then we should take it. I would very much like to see Barry here, he may not be quite the player Alonso is but he isn't far off and he's certainly far more versatile and offers more of an attacking threat which is still something we at times lack and I'd be willing to sacrifice a bit of defensive strength to achieve that.

by **GYBS** » Fri May 22, 2009 4:08 pm

But ace your talking about selling two players who have been in the first team for the majority of the season and have helped us get to where we are now . Like i said where has this belief come from that we need to sell a big player ? surely we should be looking to keep all our big players and add to them .

As i said heimdall barry is nowhere near the standard of xabi and replacing xabi with barry is a step backwards in our improvement - and dont care how much money we could get for hiim - unless its 50 mil or we swap for fabregas or xavi or iniesta then no thank you . As i said barry has never shown anything of what we lack in an attacking sense .

by **DanAn** » Sat May 23, 2009 12:55 am

Trying to be realistic about prices but I think we'd still get a fair bit for Babel.

Babel 9m
Dossena 5m
Voronin 3m
Leto - 2.5m
El Zhar 2 m
Martin 1.5m
Hammil - 1m
Mihaylov - 1m
Anderson, Brouwer, Threfall & Lindfield - 1m
Itandje & Degen - Free (probably have to continue to pay part of their wages)
Hyypia & Pennant - Free

Just enough to get Tevez

by **aCe'** » Sat May 23, 2009 3:32 am

aCe' wrote:here we go..

Dossena -5mill
Skrtel -8mill
Pennant -0
Leto -2mill
Mascherano -20mill
Babel -10mill
Voronin -5mill
Hobbs - ??
Anderson - ??

Say we get 20-30mill from the owner, which is a minimum i would think given that we've sold Keane without using the money in the last transfer window... that would give us 70-80 mill to spend... (from sales above, without the Hobbs and Anderson deals and without any other kids being sold..etc )

for me.. id use that money to bring in:

RB - 10-15mill (Srna, Rafinha, Johnson..)
CB - 10mill (Albiol, chivu, Mexes...)
Barry - 5-10mill
Silva or Robben - 20mill or so...
Owen - Bossman

Thats 45-55mill spent from a possible 70-80mill budget...
best case: we'd still have 35mill to spend with pretty much all areas of the squad sorted..
worst case: we'd still have 15mill to spend with pretty much all areas of the squad sorted..

The starting lineup would be something like this..

Reina

Rafinha Carra Mexes Aurelio

Alonso Barry

Kuyt Gerrard Silva

Torres

subs: Cavalieri, Agger, Arbeloa, Insua, Lucas, Benayoun, Riera, Owen... doesnt look too bad now does it ?!

Now, before i get all the FM bullsht and all that... i know this is never going to happen... we'll probably sell Alonso and end up bringing in Johnson and Barry and some other average player we'll all whine about and some would try to defend saying he works hard and he'll improve and all the crrap... but comeon... in all seriousness...

Babel should go..
Alonso shouldnt, if we need to sell a big player for big money, it should be Mascherano...
Dossena should go..
Lucas can stay as backup ..
Voronin should go...
Leto... anyone remember him ?!
Skrtel and Agger are both not good enough yet.. if i had to chose id pick Agger but if we can bring in a top class CB now then why wait...

thats 50mill in playerrs sold right there...

just going back to this point here for a sec...
been reading in other threads about how Chelsea can afford whoever they want and how the Mancs spend big every other summer and all...

Chelsea have Abrahamovic so theres little point going there... The Mancs... they sold big players in past seasons and managed to use the money well to replace them...

Point being... our stocks in Europe are probably at an all time high at the moment... we're close to winning the league and one more (big) push should do it i would think... Now im not sure Benitez is the best out there when it comes to transfer dealing and all that.. Unless he spends big on a proven already world class player, im not sure he can spot an averagely priced talent and have it fit in our side... We've seen way too many 5-10 mill signings who have quite honestly been nothing short of a waste of time and money.... ill leave the Keane thing out of it but suffice to say that didnt turn out too well either...

The way i see it, Dossena, Babel, Voronin, Leto, Pennant might as well have been Westbrom players and it wouldnt have affected our season one bit... All comes down to Skrtel and Mascherano...
Skrtel is an average defender, who could potentially become a very good defender at some point with added experience, but nothing more...
Mascherano is a big name in world football today, but many myself included still think hes way too overrated and offers way too little going forward especially given the system we play... I dont think that it would be disastrous by any stretch of the imagination if we lost either of the 2... id go as far as saying that we could easily replace the couple with players more suited to our system while making a profit from it...

Back to the main point though... if we have big money to spend, then we can afford to go for big names who would most probably provide us with the immediate impact that we need for next season... we need players who would hit the ground running... proven top class players who can make a difference especially against the smaller sides...

Selling the players above would allow us to spend big on atleast 1 or 2 worldclass players... Having 70-80 mill to spend would be huge for us.. especially at this stage... theres a point to be made about continuity as GYBS pointed out but i really think that we need to improve, and that the time for improvement is now.. Chelsea, Arsenal and Manutd are all going to spend big this summer, of that i have absolutely no doubt... whether they sell to fund their transfers or whether they get the money by other means is besides the point... they'll all be better teams next season and if we are to win the league then we need to improve just as much as they do... In terms of top class players in the squad, i think we'r still lacking a little.. We need the options in attack that the Mancs have that we lack, and to get that i think we'll probably need to sell a big player to fund the transfers...

by **akumaface** » Sat May 23, 2009 5:26 am

I think Rafa should convince the owner at least to commit a substantial transfer budget for the next two years since we are so close and also SG is not getting any younger. We can then sell or regroup after these two years to recoup some of the money. We must have some world class signing this summer in order to move to the top. My list would be similar to ACE except Skrtel and Mascherano. Mascherano although is one dimensioned but he is probably the best in what he does in breaking up plays. Against smaller club, this is a luxury as we should manage to beat them anyway but Mascherano is the difference when playing against big club in Europe and England. This is a must to keep him. He is also very young and again, if we win within 2 years with added world class talent, we can then offload him later but not now. As for Skrtel, we are already short of proven CB with Sami going. So, if trying to sell Skrtel this summer, it will create a bigger problem as we need to get 2 more experienced and proven CB.

I think time is also a concern as it is impossible to sell most of the youngster listed on the previous page. There isn't just enough time to do all the transaction but Rafa should make sure all the obvious one should be sold (Babel, Dossena, Lucas, El Zhar, Itanje, Degen, Voronin, Diego, Pennant, Plesis). Home to be able to bring in A forward, RB, RW, CB and Holding midfield.

by **Owzat** » Sat May 23, 2009 8:54 am

GYBS wrote:And another summer of mass changing of playing staff as opposed to the little tweeks required to push on that extra place . Two players i think we need and two only .

I agree. We bought six players last summer, only Riera made much of an impact and we've reverted to an XI that was more or less our best XI (or variations of) in the latter part of last season.

If we can improve on one or two positions, maybe bring in players to compete for places and as back-up/subs, then I see no reason not to sell off the players Rafa isn't using since that won't reduce the active squad size. A lot presumes that Rafa will do better in the transfer window than he did last summer, six signings at near £40m cost and one was sold back, one is injured, none bar maybe Riera has come close to being a success. Give Rafa £60m and who's to say any of his signings will pay off?

- Dossena (maybe £5m+) : 16 Premiership apps 08/09. Played in seven of the first eight Premiership games, just nine since and no more than three starts in a row. Insua and Aurelio are ahead of him in the pecking order

- Leto (maybe £2.5m) : 0 Premiership apps 08/09. Couldn't get a work permit, not sure there's a role for him here from what I have seen of him play

- Degen (maybe £1m+) : 0 Premiership apps 08/09. Hasn't proved a good bosman signing, is there any point keeping him and risking his fitness without having alternatives for RB? We have to sign another RB, we don't need three...................

- Voronin (£4m) : 0 Premiership apps 08/09. I am not so keen to offload him as others, his record wasn't that bad and he might be happy playing a role as "supersub". People don't rate him, what kind of striker they think we can get for £4m that will be better I think should remain in their imaginations. Hertha are now 4th so that deal may fall through anyway, although they play the bottom club away next.

- Plessis (maybe £2m) : 1 Premiership app 08/09. Played first game of the season, if he were going to become even a useful squad players surely he'd have played more than that?!? Three games in two seasons doesn't look like he will come through

- El Zhar (maybe £2m) : 14 Premiership apps 08/09. Looked quite useful early season as sub, hasn't looked quite so good since. We would need to find an attacking player to put on the bench in his place though, maybe time Pacheco or one of the kids stepped up

- Itandje (maybe £500k+) : 0 Premiership apps 08/09. Liverpool want rid, he may fight his departure but would be best advised just to go. That said, we can't expect him to sign for just any old club, has to be a reasonable move for him.

DISCLAIMER : the suggested "maybe" fees are just a possible figure we could get, it could be more, it could be less. I think they are in the right area, none for more than £2m more than we paid for them. We might just as easily get only £500k for El Zhar, or let him go for nothing, who knows with Rafa

I wouldn't sell Lucas, he's not proved detrimental to the side when he's played (missed one Premiership defeat, sub in the other), and he has played in near 2/3 of the Premiership games. That lot above were not remotely key to our squad this season, they could be sold off without reducing the effectiveness. If we want one big sale to raise big money then my preference is Mascherano, if we could get £20m I think his loss would be less than anyone else we could sell for that kind of money (Torres - no way, Gerrard - no way) We would need another CB or two if we sold Skrtel or Agger, below are the games the players have played and think that every appearance a player has made would have to be made by someone else next season - the more appearances, the better the player needed to fill the void. We didn't replace Keane, I wonder if that money will disappear into the ether

Most Premiership Appearances 08/09

37 Reina, Carragher, Kuyt
32 Alonso
31 Benayoun
30 Gerrard
-----------------------------
29 Arbeloa
27 Riera, BABEL
26 Mascherano
25 LUCAS
23 Torres, Aurelio
20 SKRTEL
-----------------------------
18 Keane (sold)
17 AGGER
16 DOSSENA
14 EL ZHAR, HYYPIA (leaving)
12 N'GOG
10 INSUA
-----------------------------
3 PENNANT (free)
1 PLESSIS
0 DIEGO, DEGEN, ITANDJE, LETO (loaned), VORONIN (loaned)

Even though Babel may not be flavour of any month, he has played a lot of games and that's 27 appearances someone else would have to fill. Our bench is far from as good as the mancs, instead of seeking out this "quality winger", "quality striker" etc, maybe we should get the RB we definitely need and strengthen the bench instead.

by **lakes10** » Sat May 23, 2009 9:21 am

GYBS wrote:And another summer of mass changing of playing staff as opposed to the little tweeks required to push on that extra place . Two players i think we need and two only .

spot on.
the more we change the longer it take for them to work out how to play.
same as all years we need a good start with no slow build up.
one thing i will not take this year is members say say 0-0 or 1-1 draw with Stoke is a ok or good result.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sat May 23, 2009 2:47 pm

Dossena – 5 Mil
Voronin – 3 Mil
Babel – 9 Mil
Lucas – 4 Mil
Leto – 1 Mil
Itandje – 500K

by **JoeTerp** » Sat May 23, 2009 4:25 pm

when coming up with these numbers in pounds its important to remember the change in the exchange rate since the last summer window. When selling to Europe, we are going to get a lot more pounds than we would have previously

by **JoeTerp** » Sat May 23, 2009 5:05 pm

Voronin - 6M
Babel - 10M
Dossena - 5.5M

Degen - 1M
El Zhar 2M
Leto 1.5M
Anderson 750k
Hammill 500k
Itandje 750k
David Martin 500k

Martin Hansen 75k
Mendy 50k
Antwi 75k
Crowther 50k
Putterill 50k
Mackay-Steven 100k
Andras Simon 75k
Vitor Flora 75k
Threlfall 75k
Roque 50k
Lindfield 100k
Brouwer 100k

total: 29.375 Million Pounds

I would also think about selling Skrtel in order to bring in a more aerially dominant CB. Somebody worth whatever we sell Skrtel for plus 5 or so million. I would then hope we would start with Agger and Carra, then move towards Carra and this new guy, and then move towards a more permanent partnership of the new guy and Agger, with Kelly/San Jose serving as 4th choice

Hopefully we would have 20 million to start with at least. Who knows what has happened to the Keane money. ALthough we didn't go as far in the CL this year, we have already qualified for the group stages next season and because we are 2nd, we will get a higher percentage of the CL money. SO with sales and everything, I am going to assume we have 55-60 million to spend (also assuming we sell all of the above). I would think we would put in at least 5 million to the revamping of the academy, and then another 5 or so on a CB upgrade. Then minus 10 or so for Barry, which leaves us with 40 million to sign a right back, winger, and striker. Hopefully we can solve the right back opening for around 12, leaving us 28 for wingers and strikers, which means lots of options and possibilities.

If only it was so simple

by **Octsky** » Sat May 23, 2009 5:08 pm

lakes10 wrote:
stmichael wrote:there is no way rafa will sell lucas

I live in hope

ok to be fair, he did have some god games, but i hear they were on the PS3.

ya lucas is great in winning eleven. but u have to keep him for a few years thought. hope it transit in real life too.

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