Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sat May 16, 2009 4:28 am

peewee wrote:3 seasons without a trophy, yes he certainly has b!tch slapped us all across the face, especially the people who gave him unconditional support, he has really repaid that faith by winning us nothing yet again.

if we lose the title by six points, is that considered close? I am not sure. If we play next season the way we have proven we can play then we have a chance next season, if we adopt the same stance next season by setting up to not lose then expect the same result, close but no cigar.

So come the end of today the chances are one of our records will be equalled, to be honest I am not too fussed about that anymore, I am more concerned about our lack of success than the mancs success. If we don't win it next season after 6 years with him at the helm and with the millions spent is it acceptable?

Hopefully next season he will concentrate on the football and not the politics, hopefully next season the only point he will have to prove is on the pitch and not in the boardroom or the press.

This club is bigger than any one man, it always has been and always will be, he has a long way to go to match shankly, paisley, fagan and dalglish yet some people rank him up there with those, one champions league and one FA cup in 5 years, do me a favour, he will get legend status when he deserves it, not when we are 6 points behind the leaders having lost two less games than them, not after another pot less season.

Lets not be suckered in by the past couple of months, we do this every season only to revert to type the following year, blowing the league with dire performances against dire opposition.

cue the rose tinted brigade now with their usual abuse.

3........2............1.............Go

I agree with much of what you say here Peewee. That said, for my part I think it's probably time to move onto some new ground.

Your certainly right about the lack of trophies, or indeed any near misses. We've made a great fist of a title challenge this season, but we've been nowhere near in any of the other competitions. From memory it's been the same for three seasons, and even in the league it's been the Mancs to win or lose for quite some time now.

Equally I know where you are coming from with the unconditional support thing. When you look at the arguments which have dominated the forum over the last few years, it's fairly clear that those who have been the most vociferous were actually incorrect. Rotation Rafa style, whether we should be more attacking etc have all pretty much been proven categorically on one side of the argument. Just like it would be utterly ridiculous to deny we have improved a lot, especially recently, it would be similar to deny that the "pro's" as far as rotaion was concerned were a mile off, or that we WERE being too defensive as many of us were suggesting.

It seems only fair to include Dirk Kuyt as well, as I'm perfectly happy to hold my hands up and say I was wrong about him and how well he has managed to run around at right midfield.

All that said though, the arguments on most of those scores are surely over now. Surely there isn't anybody left who thinks that changing the team 75 times in the first 15 matches is necessarily the best way to go, nor are there too many people who think anymore that results like drawing at Home with Hull can't potentially cost you the title.

Rafa himself has said that he has changed the team much less this season, and although I haven't read about him saying we are playing more attacking, you'd have to be a numpty not to see we are.

Given all of that, I simply cannot see why he would regress into his old ways next season. There is absolutely no reason for him to do that, so I don't think he will.

I think he'll continue as he is, and I think we will go close again. I'm just saying that if we give it a good go but don't quite make it, we shouldn't give up on him now he's got the hang of it.

Like I say though, the odd semi final or trophy or something wouldn't go amiss, I do agree with that.

by **Octsky** » Sat May 16, 2009 5:00 am

rafa won the spainish title with valencia after 33 years, twice. what we need is really one important signing, someone like torres who really makes a different. then hopefully we can blood some young blood in, nemeth, ngog, maybe spearing. then we should be ok coz the players want this, the fans want this. we are close and we can smell it.

actually i am surprise we got this close with the boardroom fighting, keane saga, rafa nearly getting sacked, parry probably screwing up us signing kerrison etc etc. so we did not bad this season.

by **bigmick** » Sat May 16, 2009 5:16 am

Octsky wrote:rafa won the spainish title with valencia after 33 years, twice. what we need is really one important signing, someone like torres who really makes a different. then hopefully we can blood some young blood in, nemeth, ngog, maybe spearing. then we should be ok coz the players want this, the fans want this. we are close and we can smell it.

actually i am surprise we got this close with the boardroom fighting, keane saga, rafa nearly getting sacked, parry probably screwing up us signing kerrison etc etc. so we did not bad this season.

We're "not so close we can smell it" mate, you must be able to smell something else. We've come second in the league on goal difference before now (didn't we lose it on that against Arsenal, Michael Thomas?). Six points back, is not so close you can smell it.

That's not to say we haven't had a good go at it, but despite beating the mancs both Home and Away we are still six points back. For my money, if we share the points with the Mancs next season ans stiull finish six points back, there'll be some progress there.

by **112-1077774096** » Sat May 16, 2009 5:58 am

I really don't know what to think, have we become so accustomed to not winning it that we accept second place as some sort of victory or achievement.

its amazing that we have many young supporters who have never seen us win the league, anyone under 20 never seen it and people under 25 probably never really remember winning it. that's a whole generation,

by **Sabre** » Sat May 16, 2009 7:57 am

bigmick wrote:
Octsky wrote:rafa won the spainish title with valencia after 33 years, twice. what we need is really one important signing, someone like torres who really makes a different. then hopefully we can blood some young blood in, nemeth, ngog, maybe spearing. then we should be ok coz the players want this, the fans want this. we are close and we can smell it.

actually i am surprise we got this close with the boardroom fighting, keane saga, rafa nearly getting sacked, parry probably screwing up us signing kerrison etc etc. so we did not bad this season.

We're "not so close we can smell it" mate, you must be able to smell something else. We've come second in the league on goal difference before now (didn't we lose it on that against Arsenal, Michael Thomas?). Six points back, is not so close you can smell it.

Close enough to see bursts of reaction in Manchester players when they score.

Close enough to have all the Liverpool fans watching all the Manchester games to see them failing and with their hearts in the throat.

Close enough to force Manchester winning every game of the competition in the last games.

Close enough to revert the opinion of the Faith-o-meter to having few doubters. And yes, the Rafa doubters vessel wasn't never empty, they had a crowded crew, so what people have been smelling and reverted that doubts must have been a title challenge, and being close enough to smell it.

Close enough to become the game that disallowed a legal goal crucial. Close enough to remember the game of Stoke, or the many games we lost Gerrard or Torres.

To go numerical *now* and mention the 6 points (assuming Manchester will win the next two games) to counter all that is not a strong point IMHO. The fact is we forced Manchester to have a formidable end of season. We won't see many Manchester final run ins like that, just the same we won't see beating them home and away so often.

The lack of silverware in 3 years point Peewee mentions though isn't one to dismiss. And it worries me.

But I don't think the team is used not to win, as I see the captain believing in this project, and the same thing can be said about the important players, who are not tempted to leave. That and the fact we're on our way to beat our record of points doesn't allow me to think the lads have forgotten to win games.

by **lakes10** » Sat May 16, 2009 8:49 am

well its not shock the i voted sack him, for me it will be Thanks for a great night and aan FA cup but now it time to try something new.

I do fear that If we dont get off to a good start next year we could end up 4th or even lower, the problem with giving Rafa another full year to turn it around is that we waste time for the next guy, Rafa could end up buying some :censored:

and and the next manager ends up spending anther two years selling it off before he can build his own team.

We had a great chance this year and we only have ourselves to blame for not winning it this year, and who has to take the blame for that , yep the Manager, sorry but thats his job.

What has made me not say sack him this year is the fact that i have seen a change in him, he spends more time looking at the Prem than he did the year before (it was all CL before then), this time he seemed to know what he was doing ......then come the draws and a few losses, we let it slip and found that Man U had overtaken us, during that time yes we did have a few players out but also Rafa did not play some of our best players when needed, he made some strange line ups and strange subs, if he did not do that then we would have won it by now.

If he looks to be doing the same next year then he should go as it means he has taken nothing on board from this year.

but just dont ask me who should take his place as i dont have a clue..............yep i am that fickel lol

by **aCe'** » Sat May 16, 2009 8:57 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
bigmick wrote:Some of the people who have effectively said that if we don't win it then we should change the manager are being way too harsh IMHO. You do not compete for the title in isolation of everybody else, and nor do you do it un isolation of circumstance.

This season many people have said that if Torres had remained fit we'd have won it, Rafa himself said it the other day. Now you can argue about it till the cows come home, you can throw Keanegate into the arguement if you want, but you simply cannot deny if you have a clue about football that the injuries to Torres have not a negative effect on our season. Now what if next season Torres and Gerrard have career threatening injuries, are we going to sack the manager because we only finish fourth?

Some of us have argued that this season both Arsenal and Chelsea have been pale shadows of their former selves, others either disagree, think it has no bearing on any outcomes for us, or have simply taken the opportunity to have a row about it just for the hell of it (all three of which are fair enough). Just say though that there is something in the theory and Chelsea sign Kaka and Messi before storming to the title. Second are man Utd who have kept Ronaldo, along with signing Eto. Do we sack Rafa then for being third, 6 points back, despite him having to sell Alonso and Masherano in order to pay the wages?

Not for me, Rafa has now shown the World that he knows what it takes to win the league. I know many people claimed that he had already shown it while we were finishing 21 points off the pace and rotating ourselves into a drunken dizziness, but even those of us who were waiting for a bit more compelling evidence surely can't deny that we've seen it now. As such, we have the manager who knows what it takes. We know we have a team who can go close, because we have good players. What we do now is give it our very best shot and see what happens, we don't sell our best players, and we don't sack our manager.

Only an absolutely unbelieveable case of the wheels coming off would lead me to think changing the manager anytime soon is the right thing to do. The debate on his tenure is over as far as I can see. He's signed the contract, he's seen the light and he has had a taste of challenging. If he doesn't quite get there again next season, providing we haven't returned to mass rotation or thinking a draw at Home to Fulham is a good result, we should let him do his stuff.

Absolutely spot on. If I were being controversial, I might suggest that those adopting a "win it next year or else" mentality don't show a particularly clear grasp of how ultra-competitive this league actually is. Alternatively, they have let their past distaste for the manager cloud all good reason. Either way it's a bit of a daft stance to take.

i think it has more to do with not believing that the manager has what it takes to improve on what we've shown this season than anything really... all the draws and the weird team selections and all that, i dont expect that to change much next season... the transfers in the summer, no holding my breath this time around... ofcourse id love to be proven wrong but i just dont see it happening... Its quite the opposite to what you say really, the whole not understanding how competitive the league is part... as Mick says, Chelsea, Arsenal, even ManUtd are all likely to improve for next season... heres for hoping we start next season with as big a bang as we've ended this one... got everyone excited -me included- but im not going to get too carried away ... its more to do with expectations rather than anything else... every year we go on a good run at some point, everyone talks about the title being ours by next season... then it all amounts to nothing... if we go out and win 30 of our games ofcourse it would be a daft idea to sack the manager even if we end up 3rd and 9points behind the leaders... but thats not what the thread is about... *based on my expectations, i dont think we'll improve as much as we should during the summer and into next season... i dont think we'll be as close to winning the title*, and for that id want Rafa saked if we fail to win it... 2nd place with just as many draws and yet another transfer window of disappointment wouldnt be something id like to see on an annual basis...
i know we've improved under Rafa... theres no denying that... but the question is have we improved enough? more specifically... are we going to improve enough at any point under Rafa so that we'd actually go out and win it ? too early to tell but as Judge says... if you dont wanna make predictions and try to expect how things will unfold then this probably isnt the best thread for you to be posting in...

You've been wrong about everything else so far. You have stated numerous times that Rafa is this and that, yet he's picked up a wet leather glove and b*tch-slapped you right across the face with it every single time.

I await the final blow with baited breath...

wrong about everything else ?! what are you on about nancy ?!

as far as im concerned Rafa still has alot to prove and unlike you i dont think that being 2nd in the league and drawing 11 or whatever games to mostly shhit sides is anything to celebrate or gloat about... do me a favor... and hey.. i await the final blow too... hopefully its sometime this century...

by **aCe'** » Sat May 16, 2009 9:18 am

bigmick wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
bigmick wrote:Some of the people who have effectively said that if we don't win it then we should change the manager are being way too harsh IMHO. You do not compete for the title in isolation of everybody else, and nor do you do it un isolation of circumstance.

This season many people have said that if Torres had remained fit we'd have won it, Rafa himself said it the other day. Now you can argue about it till the cows come home, you can throw Keanegate into the arguement if you want, but you simply cannot deny if you have a clue about football that the injuries to Torres have not a negative effect on our season. Now what if next season Torres and Gerrard have career threatening injuries, are we going to sack the manager because we only finish fourth?

Some of us have argued that this season both Arsenal and Chelsea have been pale shadows of their former selves, others either disagree, think it has no bearing on any outcomes for us, or have simply taken the opportunity to have a row about it just for the hell of it (all three of which are fair enough). Just say though that there is something in the theory and Chelsea sign Kaka and Messi before storming to the title. Second are man Utd who have kept Ronaldo, along with signing Eto. Do we sack Rafa then for being third, 6 points back, despite him having to sell Alonso and Masherano in order to pay the wages?

Not for me, Rafa has now shown the World that he knows what it takes to win the league. I know many people claimed that he had already shown it while we were finishing 21 points off the pace and rotating ourselves into a drunken dizziness, but even those of us who were waiting for a bit more compelling evidence surely can't deny that we've seen it now. As such, we have the manager who knows what it takes. We know we have a team who can go close, because we have good players. What we do now is give it our very best shot and see what happens, we don't sell our best players, and we don't sack our manager.

Only an absolutely unbelieveable case of the wheels coming off would lead me to think changing the manager anytime soon is the right thing to do. The debate on his tenure is over as far as I can see. He's signed the contract, he's seen the light and he has had a taste of challenging. If he doesn't quite get there again next season, providing we haven't returned to mass rotation or thinking a draw at Home to Fulham is a good result, we should let him do his stuff.

Absolutely spot on. If I were being controversial, I might suggest that those adopting a "win it next year or else" mentality don't show a particularly clear grasp of how ultra-competitive this league actually is. Alternatively, they have let their past distaste for the manager cloud all good reason. Either way it's a bit of a daft stance to take.

i think it has more to do with not believing that the manager has what it takes to improve on what we've shown this season than anything really... all the draws and the weird team selections and all that, i dont expect that to change much next season... the transfers in the summer, no holding my breath this time around... ofcourse id love to be proven wrong but i just dont see it happening... Its quite the opposite to what you say really, the whole not understanding how competitive the league is part... as Mick says, Chelsea, Arsenal, even ManUtd are all likely to improve for next season... heres for hoping we start next season with as big a bang as we've ended this one... got everyone excited -me included- but im not going to get too carried away ... its more to do with expectations rather than anything else... every year we go on a good run at some point, everyone talks about the title being ours by next season... then it all amounts to nothing... if we go out and win 30 of our games ofcourse it would be a daft idea to sack the manager even if we end up 3rd and 9points behind the leaders... but thats not what the thread is about... *based on my expectations, i dont think we'll improve as much as we should during the summer and into next season... i dont think we'll be as close to winning the title*, and for that id want Rafa saked if we fail to win it... 2nd place with just as many draws and yet another transfer window of disappointment wouldnt be something id like to see on an annual basis...
i know we've improved under Rafa... theres no denying that... but the question is have we improved enough? more specifically... are we going to improve enough at any point under Rafa so that we'd actually go out and win it ? too early to tell but as Judge says... if you dont wanna make predictions and try to expect how things will unfold then this probably isnt the best thread for you to be posting in...

I've been fairly happy though Ace to make my predictions. I don't think we will win next season, simply because I think we've still got too much of a gap to make up. If somebody could assure me that we were about to beat BOTH the Mancs and Chelsea Home and Away next season, there'd be a trail of fire from my chair to the bookies right now and I'd be lumping the mortgage on the 9/2 (well I'd have a couple of hundred on it anyway ).

My feeling is though that we probably won't manage to beat them both Home and Away. As I said on another thread, if the Mancs had managed to draw ONE of the games against us, they'd be nine points clear of us not six. I know a couple of people said we were deserving winers of both games, but we did fall behind in both matches too. No, I think given a more normal run of results in big four matches, we still have a bit too much to find.

The thing is though, failure to find those 12 points or whatever it'll be won't mean we've fecked it up. We fecked it up THIS season by not taking a golden opportunity, but there seems little point to me in making it worse by fecking up and sacking the manager one year into a five year contract.

As I said, provided Rafa doesn't make a complete nonsense of it (and he won't) we should let him get on with it. I don't think he will it next season, but I do think we have a huge chance of winning it at least once in the next three seasons. Until the powers of Gerrard are seriously on the wane, my money is on us winning it, under Rafa.

Fair enough Mick... its hard to argue that the way we've been playing in the last couple of months or so has been very promising to say the least...but then again if you look at the big picture.. look at the season as a whole... you realize that not much has changed.... we still draw way too many games to poor opposition... still rely heavily on Gerrard and Torres despite what many would have you believe... Rafa still (overall) makes a mess of the selections here and there (Keane)...we'r still wasting money on average and poor players in the transfer markets... and most important of all we'r yet to win the league... its been 5 years and for the better part of the past 3 years we've been discussing pretty much the same issues...

Again, given the way this season went about, its only fair that Rafa gets another go at the title next season... he deserves it... but beyond that i reckon we'd seriously have to think long and hard before deciding on giving him yet another season if we dont win it... If the same problems persist (which i expect they will), then i dont see any reason for him to stick around... people talk about him winning the Spanish league twice and all that... as irrelevant as it is its still worth pointing out to those who keep bringing it up that he did it pretty much the same way hes going about things here in England... drawing way too many games and relying on the big forces dropping more points than they normally would ... It wont work here simply because ManUtd, Chelsea and Arsenal will never all have off seasons at the same time.. This season was as close as it got to happening yet we'r still 6 points off the mark with 2 games to go..if there ever was a time to win the league under Rafa, it was this season... we didnt..

Only way i can see us winning it next season is if Ferguson decides to hit the self-destruct button and goes around selling the likes of Ronaldo and Teves without bringing in world class players to fill their exact positions... Chelsea also need to end up bringing in another flop of a manager to put them out of the title race early on yet again... besides such unlikely events, Rafa would have to seriously step it up to seriously challenge for the title yet again next season... Hopefully we bring in the right players in the summer and then see where we go from there... we'r not far off, but we'r not as close as you'd think we are either... 2 or 3 results against the mancs and chelsea are what turned this from yet another average season to a pretty exciting one...

by **LiverpoolMadman** » Sat May 16, 2009 11:05 am

Yes .... before we need to know who is going to replace Rafa .... He must be someone better than Rafa .... It's NO point if we let Rafa go and hire good manager .... we need world class manager to replace a good manager ...

by **heimdall** » Sat May 16, 2009 11:13 am

It will be quite hard to improve on being 6 points behind the winners without actually winning it though won't it.

In seriousness if we play the same next season as we did at the start and middle of this season then I will be screaming for him to be sacked. I hope and pray he will continue to play the same expansive and effective football which we have witnessed the last few months.

Come the end of next season if we don't have any silverware and have in fact slipped backwards then I think and hope he will be booted out but I will start next season with a positive attitude as regards the team and Rafa.

by **mistyred** » Sat May 16, 2009 12:06 pm

Couple Of brilliant players on the park to unlock defences during the summer
and the prem will be ours.

If we can get our own Arshavin and a very clever right winger, a couple of full backs
to run up and down the wing like Alves does then i think we will bring it home.

by **Octsky** » Sat May 16, 2009 12:33 pm

Sabre wrote:To go numerical *now* and mention the 6 points (assuming Manchester will win the next two games) to counter all that is not a strong point IMHO. The fact is we forced Manchester to have a formidable end of season. We won't see many Manchester final run ins like that, just the same we won't see beating them home and away so often.

we have a near perfect run towards the end, and if the mancs won their last two, they will have a perfect finish towards the end.
so it hard beating that. but we did tried our best despite those :censored:

going on in mid season (board room fighting etc etc) and remember rafa has just gotten his future sorted out.

imagine the boss having to worry about his family and his own future and the future of the club and we are still alive! arsenal long gone, chelsea long gone.

worst come worst, we shared the bragging rights with mancs 18 vs 18. but this may be the kick in the :censored:

we need. we lived under the "most successful" club tag for 20yrs.
players this era have to earn their rights to become legends, great player like torres despite being the most exciting since henry, hasnt won :censored:

with any club and its a crime.
i know the local lads are dying to win it so lets get together and win this.

by **tubby** » Sat May 16, 2009 1:08 pm

Hansen: Rafa should target British talent

Former Liverpool defender Alan Hansen says the Reds must strengthen their squad in the summer in order to challenge for Premier League glory again next season.

Rafael Benitez's men have run Manchester United close, but not close enough in 2008/09, with the Red Devils needing just a point against Arsenal on Saturday to draw level with their arch rivals from Merseyside on 18 English league crowns apiece.

And BBC pundit Hansen insists that if his former club are to maintain their challenge for a first ever Premier League title next year, several reinforcements will be required to enhance the squad's strength-in-depth.

"The problem Liverpool and the rest of Manchester United's title challengers have is that Sir Alex has such a strong squad at his disposal," he said.

"United can play a Champions League game on a Wednesday, make seven changes and the performance level remains seamless.

"Liverpool just can't do that. In this modern era of matches coming thick and fast and squad rotation, United have a huge advantage.

"It's crucial that Liverpool strengthen but a lot depends on what money is available to Rafa.

And Hansen, who won eight English league titles and three European Cups with the Anfield outfit, would prefer to see Benitez sign British talent to compliment a squad already awash with foreign - predominantly Spanish - stars.

"There's talk of Valencia star David Silva arriving and he's undoubtedly a good player but I'd prefer the club to go for British targets," he said.

"For me, British players tend to play a lot more matches, have more versatility and would improve the current balance of the Liverpool squad."

by **bigmick** » Sat May 16, 2009 1:50 pm

Sabre wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Octsky wrote:rafa won the spainish title with valencia after 33 years, twice. what we need is really one important signing, someone like torres who really makes a different. then hopefully we can blood some young blood in, nemeth, ngog, maybe spearing. then we should be ok coz the players want this, the fans want this. we are close and we can smell it.

actually i am surprise we got this close with the boardroom fighting, keane saga, rafa nearly getting sacked, parry probably screwing up us signing kerrison etc etc. so we did not bad this season.

We're "not so close we can smell it" mate, you must be able to smell something else. We've come second in the league on goal difference before now (didn't we lose it on that against Arsenal, Michael Thomas?). Six points back, is not so close you can smell it.

Close enough to see bursts of reaction in Manchester players when they score.

Close enough to have all the Liverpool fans watching all the Manchester games to see them failing and with their hearts in the throat.

Close enough to force Manchester winning every game of the competition in the last games.

Close enough to revert the opinion of the Faith-o-meter to having few doubters. And yes, the Rafa doubters vessel wasn't never empty, they had a crowded crew, so what people have been smelling and reverted that doubts must have been a title challenge, and being close enough to smell it.

Close enough to become the game that disallowed a legal goal crucial. Close enough to remember the game of Stoke, or the many games we lost Gerrard or Torres.

To go numerical *now* and mention the 6 points (assuming Manchester will win the next two games) to counter all that is not a strong point IMHO. The fact is we forced Manchester to have a formidable end of season. We won't see many Manchester final run ins like that, just the same we won't see beating them home and away so often.

The lack of silverware in 3 years point Peewee mentions though isn't one to dismiss. And it worries me.

But I don't think the team is used not to win, as I see the captain believing in this project, and the same thing can be said about the important players, who are not tempted to leave. That and the fact we're on our way to beat our record of points doesn't allow me to think the lads have forgotten to win games.

We're close, and it's been a huge effort. It may be semantics, but "so close you can smell it" isn't finsihing four, five or six points behind, it's losing it on goal difference.

I keep saying it, and I'll keep saying it and i don't give a feck if it bores people, we will have a huge job on to win it next season, or even to match this one. All this nonsense about us being withing touching distance is just setting ourselves up for a fall. For some reason people are completely unwilling to take into account the results against the big four teams and the relative strength of them. Why is this, it is absolutely baffling to me.

We've done brilliant, but we are NOT so close that it is a formality next season (and I know nobody is actually saying it is, but they are implying it).

Once again, if the Mancs beat us at Old Trafford next season, even if we beat them at Anfield again we will have to find TWELVE points of turnaround in order to draw level with them (assuming both them and us win our last two). That to me indicates that although we've done a lot of climbing, there is some way to go yet.

That's ALL I'm trying to point our here, I'm not diminishing our achievements this season.

BTW the Manc Arsenal game is a good one, and with a bit more belief Arsenal ought to be in front by now.

by **Alex G.** » Sat May 16, 2009 1:55 pm

Alex Ferguson rotates as much as Rafa, but the difference is that he has 4-5 world class players on the bench waiting for play, while Rafa has Leiva, Benayoun and Babel.

Why? Perhaps because they have a double budget than us.

Why? Perhaps because they have an stadium of 75.000 spectators and liverpool just 45.000.

Do you know any european big club title challenger with a stadium so small?

Madrid, barcelona, Munich, Milan, Inter???

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