Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:33 pm

I haven't got the time to read this now as I've got to go to work, but I'll come back to it.

Just a quick point though to the various people who've had a go at may stance on the "golden chance wasted" theory over the last few weeks, and how negative it is/was. It's precisely because of debates like this that I think it's important you look at our situation dispassionately. My stance is the opposite of negative towards Rafa in this situation.

I'm telling you now, there is every chance that next season we will finish third and further back than this season. NOT because rafa is a sh!t manager, NOT because we have gone backwards or stagnated, it will most likely be because Chelsea and the Mancs have upped their game. But sack the manager in those circumstances? Don't be daft.

Look, whether you are a Rafa man or not you cannot deny he has taken the club forwards, it is a fact. You could argue he could have "seen the light" earlier and all that stuff, but he's een it now and he's taken us forwards. These arguments about his tenure were for having BEFORE he signed a contract, not after. For my money he's done enough now to be allowed to see out his current contract since we've given it to him (I think it's another five years). Obviously if we finish sixth or something then you'd ask questions, or if we failed to get to at least the 1/4 finals of the Champions League where the competition starts proper, but neither of those are going to happen.

Next season will be MUCH harder IMHo for us, and I'm convinced very few fans are appreciating just how difficult it's going to be.

by **tubby** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:44 pm

It will all come down to how Rafa is allowed to spend in the summer window. If he is allowed to buy who he wants there is no reason why we cannot keep pace with Chelsea and Utd. But if Rafa has to get rid of his best players to fund others will be harder.

by **Alex G.** » Fri May 15, 2009 11:08 pm

I voted "unsure". I don´t Know.
On the one hand I demand of him to win the league after many many years but on the other hand and being fair, I can´t blame him if he doesn´t cause this United is just the best of the last 30 years,

Progression.

by **Reg** » Fri May 15, 2009 11:16 pm

bigmick wrote:Just a quick point though....

Dont kid yourself son, you've never made a 'quick point' in your life. :laugh:

by **bigmick** » Fri May 15, 2009 11:33 pm

Reg wrote:
bigmick wrote:Just a quick point though....

Dont kid yourself son, you've never made a 'quick point' in your life.

"Son"? Cheers Reg, it's been a while mate

.

by **tubby** » Fri May 15, 2009 11:37 pm

Reg wrote:
bigmick wrote:Just a quick point though....

Dont kid yourself son, you've never made a 'quick point' in your life.

by **aCe'** » Fri May 15, 2009 11:53 pm

Reg wrote:
bigmick wrote:Just a quick point though....

Dont kid yourself son, you've never made a 'quick point' in your life.

by **Sabre** » Sat May 16, 2009 12:19 am

LOL I voted yes sack Rafa by mistake

I think the clear goal has to be winning the league next season, even if I'm well aware of how difficult it will be.

I think it's a logical goal, until now I've been asking time to build up, and now it's the time to pick the fruits of the trees we planted.

I don't like sackings generally speaking, I tend to be patient, for me the sacking moment is when you see decline and not progress. "Big clubs must win titles" someone will say and rightly so. But I think the progress we've made will bring us those titles.

So despite my accidental vote I wouldn't sack Rafa if he didn't win the league, provided he keeps us progressing.

Anyhow, if not the title, I'd find extremely worrying and dissapointing another season without silverware, and as much as I love Rafa and I trust him, I know results are real dictators in those cases, so it wouldn't surprise me to watch people losing the faith completely.

by **bigmick** » Sat May 16, 2009 1:18 am

Some of the people who have effectively said that if we don't win it then we should change the manager are being way too harsh IMHO. You do not compete for the title in isolation of everybody else, and nor do you do it un isolation of circumstance.

This season many people have said that if Torres had remained fit we'd have won it, Rafa himself said it the other day. Now you can argue about it till the cows come home, you can throw Keanegate into the arguement if you want, but you simply cannot deny if you have a clue about football that the injuries to Torres have not a negative effect on our season. Now what if next season Torres and Gerrard have career threatening injuries, are we going to sack the manager because we only finish fourth?

Some of us have argued that this season both Arsenal and Chelsea have been pale shadows of their former selves, others either disagree, think it has no bearing on any outcomes for us, or have simply taken the opportunity to have a row about it just for the hell of it (all three of which are fair enough). Just say though that there is something in the theory and Chelsea sign Kaka and Messi before storming to the title. Second are man Utd who have kept Ronaldo, along with signing Eto. Do we sack Rafa then for being third, 6 points back, despite him having to sell Alonso and Masherano in order to pay the wages?

Not for me, Rafa has now shown the World that he knows what it takes to win the league. I know many people claimed that he had already shown it while we were finishing 21 points off the pace and rotating ourselves into a drunken dizziness, but even those of us who were waiting for a bit more compelling evidence surely can't deny that we've seen it now. As such, we have the manager who knows what it takes. We know we have a team who can go close, because we have good players. What we do now is give it our very best shot and see what happens, we don't sell our best players, and we don't sack our manager.

Only an absolutely unbelieveable case of the wheels coming off would lead me to think changing the manager anytime soon is the right thing to do. The debate on his tenure is over as far as I can see. He's signed the contract, he's seen the light and he has had a taste of challenging. If he doesn't quite get there again next season, providing we haven't returned to mass rotation or thinking a draw at Home to Fulham is a good result, we should let him do his stuff.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat May 16, 2009 2:49 am

bigmick wrote:Some of the people who have effectively said that if we don't win it then we should change the manager are being way too harsh IMHO. You do not compete for the title in isolation of everybody else, and nor do you do it un isolation of circumstance.

This season many people have said that if Torres had remained fit we'd have won it, Rafa himself said it the other day. Now you can argue about it till the cows come home, you can throw Keanegate into the arguement if you want, but you simply cannot deny if you have a clue about football that the injuries to Torres have not a negative effect on our season. Now what if next season Torres and Gerrard have career threatening injuries, are we going to sack the manager because we only finish fourth?

Some of us have argued that this season both Arsenal and Chelsea have been pale shadows of their former selves, others either disagree, think it has no bearing on any outcomes for us, or have simply taken the opportunity to have a row about it just for the hell of it (all three of which are fair enough). Just say though that there is something in the theory and Chelsea sign Kaka and Messi before storming to the title. Second are man Utd who have kept Ronaldo, along with signing Eto. Do we sack Rafa then for being third, 6 points back, despite him having to sell Alonso and Masherano in order to pay the wages?

Not for me, Rafa has now shown the World that he knows what it takes to win the league. I know many people claimed that he had already shown it while we were finishing 21 points off the pace and rotating ourselves into a drunken dizziness, but even those of us who were waiting for a bit more compelling evidence surely can't deny that we've seen it now. As such, we have the manager who knows what it takes. We know we have a team who can go close, because we have good players. What we do now is give it our very best shot and see what happens, we don't sell our best players, and we don't sack our manager.

Only an absolutely unbelieveable case of the wheels coming off would lead me to think changing the manager anytime soon is the right thing to do. The debate on his tenure is over as far as I can see. He's signed the contract, he's seen the light and he has had a taste of challenging. If he doesn't quite get there again next season, providing we haven't returned to mass rotation or thinking a draw at Home to Fulham is a good result, we should let him do his stuff.

Absolutely spot on. If I were being controversial, I might suggest that those adopting a "win it next year or else" mentality don't show a particularly clear grasp of how ultra-competitive this league actually is. Alternatively, they have let their past distaste for the manager cloud all good reason. Either way it's a bit of a daft stance to take.

by **aCe'** » Sat May 16, 2009 3:31 am

Bad Bob wrote:
bigmick wrote:Some of the people who have effectively said that if we don't win it then we should change the manager are being way too harsh IMHO. You do not compete for the title in isolation of everybody else, and nor do you do it un isolation of circumstance.

This season many people have said that if Torres had remained fit we'd have won it, Rafa himself said it the other day. Now you can argue about it till the cows come home, you can throw Keanegate into the arguement if you want, but you simply cannot deny if you have a clue about football that the injuries to Torres have not a negative effect on our season. Now what if next season Torres and Gerrard have career threatening injuries, are we going to sack the manager because we only finish fourth?

Some of us have argued that this season both Arsenal and Chelsea have been pale shadows of their former selves, others either disagree, think it has no bearing on any outcomes for us, or have simply taken the opportunity to have a row about it just for the hell of it (all three of which are fair enough). Just say though that there is something in the theory and Chelsea sign Kaka and Messi before storming to the title. Second are man Utd who have kept Ronaldo, along with signing Eto. Do we sack Rafa then for being third, 6 points back, despite him having to sell Alonso and Masherano in order to pay the wages?

Not for me, Rafa has now shown the World that he knows what it takes to win the league. I know many people claimed that he had already shown it while we were finishing 21 points off the pace and rotating ourselves into a drunken dizziness, but even those of us who were waiting for a bit more compelling evidence surely can't deny that we've seen it now. As such, we have the manager who knows what it takes. We know we have a team who can go close, because we have good players. What we do now is give it our very best shot and see what happens, we don't sell our best players, and we don't sack our manager.

Only an absolutely unbelieveable case of the wheels coming off would lead me to think changing the manager anytime soon is the right thing to do. The debate on his tenure is over as far as I can see. He's signed the contract, he's seen the light and he has had a taste of challenging. If he doesn't quite get there again next season, providing we haven't returned to mass rotation or thinking a draw at Home to Fulham is a good result, we should let him do his stuff.

Absolutely spot on. If I were being controversial, I might suggest that those adopting a "win it next year or else" mentality don't show a particularly clear grasp of how ultra-competitive this league actually is. Alternatively, they have let their past distaste for the manager cloud all good reason. Either way it's a bit of a daft stance to take.

i think it has more to do with not believing that the manager has what it takes to improve on what we've shown this season than anything really... all the draws and the weird team selections and all that, i dont expect that to change much next season... the transfers in the summer, no holding my breath this time around... ofcourse id love to be proven wrong but i just dont see it happening... Its quite the opposite to what you say really, the whole not understanding how competitive the league is part... as Mick says, Chelsea, Arsenal, even ManUtd are all likely to improve for next season... heres for hoping we start next season with as big a bang as we've ended this one... got everyone excited -me included- but im not going to get too carried away ... its more to do with expectations rather than anything else... every year we go on a good run at some point, everyone talks about the title being ours by next season... then it all amounts to nothing... if we go out and win 30 of our games ofcourse it would be a daft idea to sack the manager even if we end up 3rd and 9points behind the leaders... but thats not what the thread is about... *based on my expectations, i dont think we'll improve as much as we should during the summer and into next season... i dont think we'll be as close to winning the title*, and for that id want Rafa saked if we fail to win it... 2nd place with just as many draws and yet another transfer window of disappointment wouldnt be something id like to see on an annual basis...
i know we've improved under Rafa... theres no denying that... but the question is have we improved enough? more specifically... are we going to improve enough at any point under Rafa so that we'd actually go out and win it ? too early to tell but as Judge says... if you dont wanna make predictions and try to expect how things will unfold then this probably isnt the best thread for you to be posting in...

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sat May 16, 2009 3:40 am

aCe' wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
bigmick wrote:Some of the people who have effectively said that if we don't win it then we should change the manager are being way too harsh IMHO. You do not compete for the title in isolation of everybody else, and nor do you do it un isolation of circumstance.

This season many people have said that if Torres had remained fit we'd have won it, Rafa himself said it the other day. Now you can argue about it till the cows come home, you can throw Keanegate into the arguement if you want, but you simply cannot deny if you have a clue about football that the injuries to Torres have not a negative effect on our season. Now what if next season Torres and Gerrard have career threatening injuries, are we going to sack the manager because we only finish fourth?

Some of us have argued that this season both Arsenal and Chelsea have been pale shadows of their former selves, others either disagree, think it has no bearing on any outcomes for us, or have simply taken the opportunity to have a row about it just for the hell of it (all three of which are fair enough). Just say though that there is something in the theory and Chelsea sign Kaka and Messi before storming to the title. Second are man Utd who have kept Ronaldo, along with signing Eto. Do we sack Rafa then for being third, 6 points back, despite him having to sell Alonso and Masherano in order to pay the wages?

Not for me, Rafa has now shown the World that he knows what it takes to win the league. I know many people claimed that he had already shown it while we were finishing 21 points off the pace and rotating ourselves into a drunken dizziness, but even those of us who were waiting for a bit more compelling evidence surely can't deny that we've seen it now. As such, we have the manager who knows what it takes. We know we have a team who can go close, because we have good players. What we do now is give it our very best shot and see what happens, we don't sell our best players, and we don't sack our manager.

Only an absolutely unbelieveable case of the wheels coming off would lead me to think changing the manager anytime soon is the right thing to do. The debate on his tenure is over as far as I can see. He's signed the contract, he's seen the light and he has had a taste of challenging. If he doesn't quite get there again next season, providing we haven't returned to mass rotation or thinking a draw at Home to Fulham is a good result, we should let him do his stuff.

Absolutely spot on. If I were being controversial, I might suggest that those adopting a "win it next year or else" mentality don't show a particularly clear grasp of how ultra-competitive this league actually is. Alternatively, they have let their past distaste for the manager cloud all good reason. Either way it's a bit of a daft stance to take.

i think it has more to do with not believing that the manager has what it takes to improve on what we've shown this season than anything really... all the draws and the weird team selections and all that, i dont expect that to change much next season... the transfers in the summer, no holding my breath this time around... ofcourse id love to be proven wrong but i just dont see it happening... Its quite the opposite to what you say really, the whole not understanding how competitive the league is part... as Mick says, Chelsea, Arsenal, even ManUtd are all likely to improve for next season... heres for hoping we start next season with as big a bang as we've ended this one... got everyone excited -me included- but im not going to get too carried away ... its more to do with expectations rather than anything else... every year we go on a good run at some point, everyone talks about the title being ours by next season... then it all amounts to nothing... if we go out and win 30 of our games ofcourse it would be a daft idea to sack the manager even if we end up 3rd and 9points behind the leaders... but thats not what the thread is about... *based on my expectations, i dont think we'll improve as much as we should during the summer and into next season... i dont think we'll be as close to winning the title*, and for that id want Rafa saked if we fail to win it... 2nd place with just as many draws and yet another transfer window of disappointment wouldnt be something id like to see on an annual basis...
i know we've improved under Rafa... theres no denying that... but the question is have we improved enough? more specifically... are we going to improve enough at any point under Rafa so that we'd actually go out and win it ? too early to tell but as Judge says... if you dont wanna make predictions and try to expect how things will unfold then this probably isnt the best thread for you to be posting in...

You've been wrong about everything else so far. You have stated numerous times that Rafa is this and that, yet he's picked up a wet leather glove and b*tch-slapped you right across the face with it every single time.

I await the final blow with baited breath...

by **112-1077774096** » Sat May 16, 2009 4:07 am

3 seasons without a trophy, yes he certainly has b!tch slapped us all across the face, especially the people who gave him unconditional support, he has really repaid that faith by winning us nothing yet again.

if we lose the title by six points, is that considered close? I am not sure. If we play next season the way we have proven we can play then we have a chance next season, if we adopt the same stance next season by setting up to not lose then expect the same result, close but no cigar.

So come the end of today the chances are one of our records will be equalled, to be honest I am not too fussed about that anymore, I am more concerned about our lack of success than the mancs success. If we don't win it next season after 6 years with him at the helm and with the millions spent is it acceptable?

Hopefully next season he will concentrate on the football and not the politics, hopefully next season the only point he will have to prove is on the pitch and not in the boardroom or the press.

This club is bigger than any one man, it always has been and always will be, he has a long way to go to match shankly, paisley, fagan and dalglish yet some people rank him up there with those, one champions league and one FA cup in 5 years, do me a favour, he will get legend status when he deserves it, not when we are 6 points behind the leaders having lost two less games than them, not after another pot less season.

Lets not be suckered in by the past couple of months, we do this every season only to revert to type the following year, blowing the league with dire performances against dire opposition.

cue the rose tinted brigade now with their usual abuse.

3........2............1.............Go

by **bigmick** » Sat May 16, 2009 4:13 am

aCe' wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
bigmick wrote:Some of the people who have effectively said that if we don't win it then we should change the manager are being way too harsh IMHO. You do not compete for the title in isolation of everybody else, and nor do you do it un isolation of circumstance.

This season many people have said that if Torres had remained fit we'd have won it, Rafa himself said it the other day. Now you can argue about it till the cows come home, you can throw Keanegate into the arguement if you want, but you simply cannot deny if you have a clue about football that the injuries to Torres have not a negative effect on our season. Now what if next season Torres and Gerrard have career threatening injuries, are we going to sack the manager because we only finish fourth?

Some of us have argued that this season both Arsenal and Chelsea have been pale shadows of their former selves, others either disagree, think it has no bearing on any outcomes for us, or have simply taken the opportunity to have a row about it just for the hell of it (all three of which are fair enough). Just say though that there is something in the theory and Chelsea sign Kaka and Messi before storming to the title. Second are man Utd who have kept Ronaldo, along with signing Eto. Do we sack Rafa then for being third, 6 points back, despite him having to sell Alonso and Masherano in order to pay the wages?

Not for me, Rafa has now shown the World that he knows what it takes to win the league. I know many people claimed that he had already shown it while we were finishing 21 points off the pace and rotating ourselves into a drunken dizziness, but even those of us who were waiting for a bit more compelling evidence surely can't deny that we've seen it now. As such, we have the manager who knows what it takes. We know we have a team who can go close, because we have good players. What we do now is give it our very best shot and see what happens, we don't sell our best players, and we don't sack our manager.

Only an absolutely unbelieveable case of the wheels coming off would lead me to think changing the manager anytime soon is the right thing to do. The debate on his tenure is over as far as I can see. He's signed the contract, he's seen the light and he has had a taste of challenging. If he doesn't quite get there again next season, providing we haven't returned to mass rotation or thinking a draw at Home to Fulham is a good result, we should let him do his stuff.

Absolutely spot on. If I were being controversial, I might suggest that those adopting a "win it next year or else" mentality don't show a particularly clear grasp of how ultra-competitive this league actually is. Alternatively, they have let their past distaste for the manager cloud all good reason. Either way it's a bit of a daft stance to take.

i think it has more to do with not believing that the manager has what it takes to improve on what we've shown this season than anything really... all the draws and the weird team selections and all that, i dont expect that to change much next season... the transfers in the summer, no holding my breath this time around... ofcourse id love to be proven wrong but i just dont see it happening... Its quite the opposite to what you say really, the whole not understanding how competitive the league is part... as Mick says, Chelsea, Arsenal, even ManUtd are all likely to improve for next season... heres for hoping we start next season with as big a bang as we've ended this one... got everyone excited -me included- but im not going to get too carried away ... its more to do with expectations rather than anything else... every year we go on a good run at some point, everyone talks about the title being ours by next season... then it all amounts to nothing... if we go out and win 30 of our games ofcourse it would be a daft idea to sack the manager even if we end up 3rd and 9points behind the leaders... but thats not what the thread is about... *based on my expectations, i dont think we'll improve as much as we should during the summer and into next season... i dont think we'll be as close to winning the title*, and for that id want Rafa saked if we fail to win it... 2nd place with just as many draws and yet another transfer window of disappointment wouldnt be something id like to see on an annual basis...
i know we've improved under Rafa... theres no denying that... but the question is have we improved enough? more specifically... are we going to improve enough at any point under Rafa so that we'd actually go out and win it ? too early to tell but as Judge says... if you dont wanna make predictions and try to expect how things will unfold then this probably isnt the best thread for you to be posting in...

I've been fairly happy though Ace to make my predictions. I don't think we will win next season, simply because I think we've still got too much of a gap to make up. If somebody could assure me that we were about to beat BOTH the Mancs and Chelsea Home and Away next season, there'd be a trail of fire from my chair to the bookies right now and I'd be lumping the mortgage on the 9/2 (well I'd have a couple of hundred on it anyway

).

My feeling is though that we probably won't manage to beat them both Home and Away. As I said on another thread, if the Mancs had managed to draw ONE of the games against us, they'd be nine points clear of us not six. I know a couple of people said we were deserving winers of both games, but we did fall behind in both matches too. No, I think given a more normal run of results in big four matches, we still have a bit too much to find.

The thing is though, failure to find those 12 points or whatever it'll be won't mean we've fecked it up. We fecked it up THIS season by not taking a golden opportunity, but there seems little point to me in making it worse by fecking up and sacking the manager one year into a five year contract.

As I said, provided Rafa doesn't make a complete nonsense of it (and he won't) we should let him get on with it. I don't think he will it next season, but I do think we have a huge chance of winning it at least once in the next three seasons. Until the powers of Gerrard are seriously on the wane, my money is on us winning it, under Rafa.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat May 16, 2009 4:21 am

Didn't realize that this was a prediction thread.

In that case, it's easy. I predict that Rafa will not be fired next year no matter how the season turns out. I further predict that someone on here will whinge about that reality.

In terms of the actual football, it's less easy but I'll give it a whirl. I predict we'll kick on from this season and turn in an even better set of performances next season, on the whole. I further predict that we will win at least one piece of silverware as a result. Will that be the league title? I couldn't possibly say at this early stage. :;):

Liverpool FC Forum

If we dont win the league next season - Just a question of thoughts now?

If we dont win the league next season - Just a question of thoughts now?

Who is online