Liverpool FC Forum

by **Fowler_E7** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:30 pm

GYBS wrote:when did he start off shyte ? he was one of the players at the beginning of the season who was scoring goals - he had a poor peroid over jan when the whole of the team was playing poor as well . who is the better replacements that will produce more for us ? Yes fowler he has been one of our best players this season and it wouldnt surprise me if the other players vote him as their player of the season .

if the players at LFC vote for him as player of the season then there as bonkers as you are. As for better replacements there are plenty of better quality players out there, i just hope Rafa picks the right one.

by **GYBS** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:52 pm

well i would say your in the minority these days now fowler - kuyt has proved his worth once again and consistently throughout the season - the manager knows his worth , the players know his worth unfortunatly some fans never will . oh they will have to get used to him being in the side week in week out scoring and setting up goals .

as for better players - do these supposed skillfully pacey players actuavlly produce the goods ? only have to look at players like lennon etc etc and see they look good but produce less compared to kuyt .

by **supersub** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:01 pm

Fowler_E7 wrote:
GYBS wrote:when did he start off shyte ? he was one of the players at the beginning of the season who was scoring goals - he had a poor peroid over jan when the whole of the team was playing poor as well . who is the better replacements that will produce more for us ? Yes fowler he has been one of our best players this season and it wouldnt surprise me if the other players vote him as their player of the season .

if the players at LFC vote for him as player of the season then there as bonkers as you are. As for better replacements there are plenty of better quality players out there, i just hope Rafa picks the right one.

Believe me, I would be surprised as you, simply because there are thousands of supporters who have Gerrard/Torres emblazoned across their shirts...walls full of pictures...mini Stevie and Nando figurines hanging from their key rings who will only vote for them two.

Alonso best player this season
Kuyt a deserved 2nd
Skirtel pipping Gerrard for 3rd

but votes don't always reflect good sound reasoning....

Giggs prime example of blinkered voting patterns

This type of adulation is not confined to the TV viewers...I hear the same few people moan and groan at the match and then have multiple ejaculations when Torres touches the ball, even if it's to pick the ball up for a throw-in :laugh:

by **Fowler_E7** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:08 pm

GYBS wrote:as for better players - do these supposed skillfully pacey players actuavlly produce the goods ? only have to look at players like lennon etc etc and see they look good but produce less compared to kuyt .

dont remember mentioning Aaron Lennon myself, personally i think he's pretty average and probably about as good as Kuyt. Dirk stats look good on paper and no doubt he has contrubuted massively at times this season, however he has also massively diminished the team this season as well. From about October to February he was consistently awful and contributed very little to the team.

He of all our players has probably benefited the most from the sale of Robbie Keane and the move back to 4-3-2-1 where Kuyt is a lot better as he has more freedom in the role, as opposed to 4-4-2 where Kuyt was played as a conventional right sided midfield player, was hopeless and had no right to be out there. Since the change back to 4-3-2-1 he has improved and shown his worth to team in a role he can play and over the past month has been outstanding, however i would bet my last penny that he will never play that well for an entire season, and even at the level he is playing at he can still be incredibly frustrating with his lack of touch, passing ability and skill. I would definitely keep him in the squad, but we should be looking to improve on him with a better player which shouldnt be too difficult IMO

by **Fowler_E7** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:11 pm

supersub wrote:
Fowler_E7 wrote:
GYBS wrote:when did he start off shyte ? he was one of the players at the beginning of the season who was scoring goals - he had a poor peroid over jan when the whole of the team was playing poor as well . who is the better replacements that will produce more for us ? Yes fowler he has been one of our best players this season and it wouldnt surprise me if the other players vote him as their player of the season .

if the players at LFC vote for him as player of the season then there as bonkers as you are. As for better replacements there are plenty of better quality players out there, i just hope Rafa picks the right one.

Believe me, I would be surprised as you, simply because there are thousands of supporters who have Gerrard/Torres emblazoned across their shirts...walls full of pictures...mini Stevie and Nando figurines hanging from their key rings who will only vote for them two.

Alonso best player this season
Kuyt a deserved 2nd
Skirtel pipping Gerrard for 3rd

but votes don't always reflect good sound reasoning....

Giggs prime example of blinkered voting patterns

This type of adulation is not confined to the TV viewers...I hear the same few people moan and groan at the match and then have multiple ejaculations when Torres touches the ball, even if it's to pick the ball up for a throw-in

Oh come of it! its true fans never critisize Gerrard and Torres but they are Liverpools best players, and consistently show it. The likes of Kuyt are not even in the same stratosphere as Gerrard and Torres. Personally i would say Liverpool player of the season would go:

1) Gerrard
2) Alonso
3) Torres

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:39 pm

supersub wrote:
DrPepe wrote:
bigmick wrote:
GYBS wrote:i guess it would be useful cause people talk about him giving the ball away a lot ?

And so he does, which is why you can dilude yourself when looking at stats. He gives the ball away usually by miscontrolling it, not by passing it to the wrong colour shirt. He also causes our attacks to lose momentum on occasions by having to turn back on himself through poor control. Neither of those things will show up on stats, infact in the second instance as long as he lays it back to Arbeloa, he will rack up another completed pass for the stats boys.

Look I think he has done well and has improved massively. I made the point in my posts earlier before the good doctor came in with his nonsense.

i don't want to cast aspersions on your judgement, but simply pronouncing that a player has a cr ap touch simply isn't good enough...

For someone who causes "our attacks to lose momentum" he 's doing fantastic - i would say Riera, for all his silky touch, is far far less effective than our dirk.

First touch ain't everything, and when you're looking for something to criticise a player for it's the easy option for people to pick up on
you may have seen him lose the ball plenty of times, but i've seen Torres & our Great Leader do that plenty of times too. It seems that all our quality attacking players have a poor touch

But in some peoples eyes, usually hundreds or thousands of miles away, Torres and Gerrard can do nothing wrong.

Nice post fella.

What on earth has "thousands of miles away" got to do with anything?

I noted the one about being at the game giving you a different perspective on Kuyt from what you get on the "gogglebox" as well. Another good line.

Just to repeat what I've already said already a couple of times. Provided Dirk keeps on scoring with the frequency which he is, and gatting assists at the rate which he currently is, then there will never be any problem with him playing for Liverpool. If on the other hand the goals dry up, which as I said earlier given his history remains at least a possibility, then the other aspects of his game which aren't up to the job will come into sharper focus.

All IMHO of course, formed from looking at a "gogglebox" "thousands of miles away". I can't play the "look at me I go to games so therefore I can see things better than you can" card, but my suspicion is even if I could I wouldn't anyway :laugh:

.

by **fivecups** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:55 pm

Fowler_E7 wrote:
GYBS wrote:when did he start off shyte ? he was one of the players at the beginning of the season who was scoring goals - he had a poor peroid over jan when the whole of the team was playing poor as well . who is the better replacements that will produce more for us ? Yes fowler he has been one of our best players this season and it wouldnt surprise me if the other players vote him as their player of the season .

if the players at LFC vote for him as player of the season then there as bonkers as you are. As for better replacements there are plenty of better quality players out there, i just hope Rafa picks the right one.

He gets my vote just ahead of Alonso. As Mick said yesterday it depends how you define player of the season. Personally I don't see how he disrupts our fluency - in my opinion he contributes to it as much as any other player; the poor first touch, poor passing labels have stuck since his early days but aren't as applicable now.

Also I wouldn't assume that he's high on Rafa's list to replace. Rafa's said before that Kuyt makes it all work and he's played in every Premiership match this season. Rafa loves him too.

We have other areas that need strengthening more than right midfield.

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:06 pm

I actually said in an earlier post FC that in a "player of the season" poll under a different definition to "who is the best player" which I think from 12,000 miles away is Gerrard or possibly Torres, whereas some sitting 20 yards away can't see that (not you mate), Kuyt would be right up there with Alonso. Somebody mentioned Skyrtel earlier on, but i can only assume he must be doing some good work off screen as I missed it.

Anyway, silliness aside and back to Kuyt. I totally agree with you that Rafa would have hom down as one of the first names on the sheet, and as of now so would I. There are two reasons for that. Firstly we haven't really got anybody else aside from the captain who can play there (he is though quite good there or at least looks it to me from this distance). The second reason is that Dirks goal return and assists this season are right up there with the very best. He has to play because his contribution is huge. I'm going to repeat that last bit, he has to play because his contribution is huge. I also agree with you mate that we have much bigger priorities to replace if Dirk is playing like he currently is.

I merely offer the doom and gloom scenario because firstly that's what I tend to do, and secondly because Dirk has some previous. Now if next season we continue to struggle to break teams down at Home, and if for example Arsenal and Chelsea actually mount a coherent campaign and overtake us again, people will begin to look closely at why we don't have the requisite cohesion and fluency to pass round the side of the parked bus. When they do, if Dirk isn't scoring goals and adding assists, (which lets be honest he has gone extended spells in a red shirt and not done in the past) then people will once again look at his control, first touch, awareness and overall football ability. Like I say, provided he keeps scoring it won't matter. As for this season though, he's been excellent and fully deserves all the praise he's getting in my opinion.

by **Sabre** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:08 pm

Just to repeat what I've already said already a couple of times. Provided Dirk keeps on scoring with the frequency which he is, and gatting assists at the rate which he currently is, then there will never be any problem with him playing for Liverpool. If on the other hand the goals dry up, which as I said earlier given his history remains at least a possibility, then the other aspects of his game which aren't up to the job will come into sharper focus.

When he doesn't talk about rotation and Rafa, I tend to agree Bigmick more.

I have a similar position to his position. Perhaps he insists more and his words are sharper when describing the mistakes, but I agree most of the mistakes he spots on Kuyt.

Perhaps I think that I appreciate more the good things of Kuyt than him, but I don't think he's saying anything disrespecful nor extremely critic. I remember in the past Mick didn't appreciate Kuyt's pressing style, but when it comes to when we have the ball, I have to agree him.

Kuyt deserves all the support, and certainly all the respect to his numbers of goals and assists. But if I have to think about a position in which is easiest to improve what we have, that would be RB and RW.

Saying that is not disrespect to Kuyt, but answering the question of how to improve our already strong squad. There's always margin to improve. Nobody's saying, or at least not Mick, Kuyt shouldn't have a place in the squad.

by **woof woof !** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:14 pm

bigmick wrote:I merely offer the doom and gloom scenario because firstly that's what I tend to do

Just out of rapidly waning interest Mick , why do you "tend to do" that. ?

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:19 pm

Mostly agree with all of that Sabre, although I'm incresingly swaying towards an idea that a top-class commanding centre half would do more to improve our solidity than would a replacement for Arbeloa or Aurelio. It's for another thread this, but I think if we are going to allow our central mids to advance and play a much more expansive style (which I totally agree with) then we need a top-class, absolutely top drawer central defender. Arbie and Aurelio are fine IMHO.

We'll no doubt end up looking overseas, but I was having a quick look at the Prem table and Fulham have an outstanding defensive record for a team which isn't very good, and I'm coming more and more round to the tall fella with the long name that they've got. Anyway, Like I say it belongs in another thread and on Kuyt we obviously agree that he deserves his place in the team, is making vital contributions etc but even so his would be a position which may be on the "ones to improve" list.

I did say MAY though. I really must stop posting in this thread, it's got a life and a set of rules all of its own.

by **Sabre** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:24 pm

redbeergoggles wrote:Lets start by dispelling the most popular myths surrounding Kuyt ,his first touch while not being exemplary is adequate enough ,this when weighed up against the fact, that he always finds space to exploit defenders, and bring strikers into play ,the latter wins hands down .
Then we have the second point Kuyts not a Striker ,No ! well he's suprised the hell out of me because without him Liverpool wouldnt be up Uniteds so-called Imperious @rse .
The one greatest attribute he brings to this team is his commitment ,and believe it or not his speed of thought, Kuyt is rarely extolled for his ingenuity, and watching him on that field ,Ive no reservations the fella's heart is Scouse ....
I know Kuyt will always have his dissenters, but he epitomizes the spirit that Liverpool Football Club exists for ,and while he is at this club ,I will be safe in the comfort that its not just Scousers who would run through the proverbial brick wall for this great club of ours ........

The funny thing is that with the other side of the discussion, I don't disagree much:

I agree he's not a striker (well he is, but not good enough for a top club)

I agree he has surprised me by adapting to a new position and he has brought goals and assists in that position.

I agree Kuyt is part of the reasons we are competing with Manchester now

I agree he's not extolled for his ingenuity.

I agree in the love to heart and commitment.

But is his touch adequate enough? Don't get me wrong, out there there are hundreds of players of a top league with no better touch than Kuyt. In that sense, his touch is adequate. But we're on front of a tough question here:

How to improve an already strong squad? And would be one of these positions the position that Kuyt occupies?

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:25 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
bigmick wrote:I merely offer the doom and gloom scenario because firstly that's what I tend to do

Just out of rapidly waning interest Mick , why do you "tend to do" that. ?

I was kind of being ironic Woof, being forever labelled "negative" and a "doomer and gloomer" and the rest. The truth is mate I just like talking about football. On most things to do with football I've got an opinion, and I'm the first to accept that most of my opinions are formed from a more neutral perspective than the most devout of fans.

It's like Dirk and his first touch. Yes I'm over the moon for the lad that he's flying along, and yes I'm the first to admit that those of us who wanted him bombed out (I was never the most vociferous of that group but my patience with him had worn out) have been proven to be talking out of our erses. I've said it a few times, those who backed him to the hilt have been fully vindicated. Ditto xabi Alonso and his return to form this season. That said though, I suppose I could jus tlet it pass when people say his first touch is dandy, or that he beats players regularly, but as it isn't and he doesn't and it's a forum, I row against the tide a bit.

Why Woof? Feck knows.

by **fivecups** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:41 pm

bigmick wrote:It depends how you measure it mate I suppose. Gerrard has scored twenty odd goals or whatever it is and very likely made around the same number. He is currently by common consent one of the top handful if not THE best player in the World. Without him in the team on a regualr basis we'd be a fair way back off the top IMHO, he remains our best and most important player by a distance.

Now you could legitimately say that both Kuyt and Alonso have played right at the very top of their game all season, and in that sense they deserve player of the year. Is player of the year a measure of how well you could have possibly performed given your natural tools, or is it simply who has been the best player?

If it's who has been the best player then obviously there's no debate. If it's who has been the best player which THEY could possibly have been, then i'd go with Alonso personally. Kuyt would be right up there though there's no doubt about it.

Yeah, this is the post.

Is player of the season your best player? Is it the player who contributed most to the season? Or is it the one who was the best they could have possibly been for the season?

by **JC_81** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:50 pm

Fowler_E7 wrote:typical of Kuyt, every season he finishes strongly so most people forget about the complete toilet he produces earlier in the season. The guy has been excellent recently and deserves his pludits but lots of Liverpool fans have been coming out with ridiculous statements like "best winger in the league after Ronaldo" and " One of best players this season". Dirk Kuyt is a decent footballer player, nothing more nothing less, i would say he is worth a squad place, but i would say it iskey to our development as a team that he is replaced with a better quality player as quickly as possible.

I'd agree with that. I think it's a good observation about Kuyt's end of season form often being much better than early season. It was certainly also the case last season.

Liverpool FC Forum

Dirk kuyt - Peace everyone

Who is online