Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:54 am

DrPepe wrote:
bigmick wrote:
DrPepe wrote:i did start to look around for pass completion rate and/or number of passes for individuals in our team and the rest of the PL - that would be useful in this kind of discussion

Why would it be useful? I personally think you might as well talk about the number of keepy uppies someone does in warm up.

Pass completion. So a bloke who gets the ball and squares it fifteen yards every time gets 100%, whereas a bloke who tries to play people in manages it two out of five gets 40% and it proves what?

You can't judge a footballer by paying too much attention to such nonsense.

fair enough.

from what i see of Dirk, he doesn't give the ball away excessively and doesn't have a poor first touch

i won't back that up with anything solid , cos facts are just nonsense

Except for goals.... oh, and assists. And red/yellow cards. And fouls, wins , draws....

"Cos facts are just nonsense"

Dear oh dear. The facts aren't nonsense, otherwise they wouldn't be facts. Attempting to draw a conclusion that Dirk doesn't give the ball away because of a "fact" which tells about 20% of the story is nonsense.

As for your assertion that Dirk doesn't have a poor first touch, well we'll simply have to differ. And to think you were giving it the old embarassed smiley earlier on.

I've a hunch we're not going to get on, we haven't really hit it off so far.

by **GYBS** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:55 am

but i have watched him more closely over the last couple of months and not really seen much evidence of this giving the ball away a lot , seemed to be on par with everyone else

by **Festy** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:57 am

GYBS wrote:but i have watched him more closely over the last couple of months and not really seen much evidence of this giving the ball away a lot , seemed to be on par with everyone else

Yeah he's improved a lot this season. Seems to have worked on his first touch as well.

by **DrPepe** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:00 am

bigmick wrote:
GYBS wrote:i guess it would be useful cause people talk about him giving the ball away a lot ?

And so he does, which is why you can dilude yourself when looking at stats. He gives the ball away usually by miscontrolling it, not by passing it to the wrong colour shirt. He also causes our attacks to lose momentum on occasions by having to turn back on himself through poor control. Neither of those things will show up on stats, infact in the second instance as long as he lays it back to Arbeloa, he will rack up another completed pass for the stats boys.

Look I think he has done well and has improved massively. I made the point in my posts earlier before the good doctor came in with his nonsense.

i don't want to cast aspersions on your judgement, but simply pronouncing that a player has a cr ap touch simply isn't good enough...

For someone who causes "our attacks to lose momentum" he 's doing fantastic - i would say Riera, for all his silky touch, is far far less effective than our dirk.

First touch ain't everything, and when you're looking for something to criticise a player for it's the easy option for people to pick up on :nod

you may have seen him lose the ball plenty of times, but i've seen Torres & our Great Leader do that plenty of times too. It seems that all our quality attacking players have a poor touch :buttrock

by **DrPepe** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:01 am

bigmick wrote:I've a hunch we're not going to get on, we haven't really hit it off so far.

i disagree with you , don't take it to heart :upside:

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:05 am

GYBS wrote:but i have watched him more closely over the last couple of months and not really seen much evidence of this giving the ball away a lot , seemed to be on par with everyone else

Look, if you are as big a fan of Dirk as you are GYBS, then it matters not a jot what anybody says about him, you will never be convinced. That's OK, and to a large extent blokes like yourself and Dawson have been vindicated. A midfielder who plays where Dirk starts off and scores the amount of goals which he has this season is well worth his place int he team.

In my view though, just as it would be silly for anybody to deny that based on this seasons perfromances, to try and claim that he has a stella first touch is amazing to me. I shouldn't think even HE thinks that part of his game is strong. It's like me claiming he doesn't run around a lot.

I was simply making the point earlier that if the goals dry up (which lets face it based on his Liverpool career is at least a possibility) then his other contribution will come into sharp focus. Nobody is disputing that he adds something to the rhythm of the team and it's energy with his running around (I did actually say it earlier) but his contribution in some other facets are below where a top class team needs its right midfielder to be. No problem while he's scoring regularly because we all forgive him, it's when he isn't that we'll all look.

People may all conclude like this other bloke that Dirk actually has a fine first touch, beats a player regularly and doesn't hinder our attacking fluency one jot. On the other hand maybe they won't. We'll see.

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:08 am

DrPepe wrote:
bigmick wrote:I've a hunch we're not going to get on, we haven't really hit it off so far.

i disagree with you , don't take it to heart

Disagreeing is fine, it's what a forum is all about. If I'm honest I didn't appreciate the old embarassed smiley thing earlier, but it's all good. Since then with some of the other comments, I can see things a bit clearer now so no worries :;):

.

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:09 am

DrPepe wrote:
bigmick wrote:
GYBS wrote:i guess it would be useful cause people talk about him giving the ball away a lot ?

And so he does, which is why you can dilude yourself when looking at stats. He gives the ball away usually by miscontrolling it, not by passing it to the wrong colour shirt. He also causes our attacks to lose momentum on occasions by having to turn back on himself through poor control. Neither of those things will show up on stats, infact in the second instance as long as he lays it back to Arbeloa, he will rack up another completed pass for the stats boys.

Look I think he has done well and has improved massively. I made the point in my posts earlier before the good doctor came in with his nonsense.

i don't want to cast aspersions on your judgement, but simply pronouncing that a player has a cr ap touch simply isn't good enough...

For someone who causes "our attacks to lose momentum" he 's doing fantastic - i would say Riera, for all his silky touch, is far far less effective than our dirk.

First touch ain't everything, and when you're looking for something to criticise a player for it's the easy option for people to pick up on
you may have seen him lose the ball plenty of times, but i've seen Torres & our Great Leader do that plenty of times too. It seems that all our quality attacking players have a poor touch

Feck me.

by **GYBS** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:13 am

My backing of kuyt wasnt for any vindication or to try and say "look i was right " etc . and where has anyone claimed he has a stella first touch ? im just saying its nowhere near as bad as what some people say , and his vision ? well just look at that little back heel he did against chelsea , and his assists which has always been there and where there last season , when his goals dried up - he had one poor period last season when his father died yet in my eyes he still contributed to the team . im never going to say he is world class or the finished article i just dont think he is anywhere near as bad as people have portrayed him on here . Our players think his worth to the team is massive and has allways been understated . and i agree with them one hundred per cent . first season he was our leading goalscorer in the league , last season he helped us reach the semis of the cl with some great games in the cl while not having the greatest time in the league and this season he has contributed massively to both our league campaigns and cl campaigns and has rightly earned a new contract . performance wise he has been up there with the best this season and productively wise only ronaldo has produced more than him from the right side (thats not saying he is the second best right sided player in the prem ) , he has out performed other right sided players this season - the lennons etc .

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:18 am

As I say, no surprises there then

I think I'll leave it at that, what with you and the other bloke this is going to go one way and that's round in circles. I give in, his first touch is fine, much better than people make out, he regularly beats players, and he completes lots of passes. I should have known better than even come in here, many times I've vowed not to and I just forget. It's all good, you discuss it with the other bloke

.

by **stmichael** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:57 am

DrPepe wrote:For someone who causes "our attacks to lose momentum" he 's doing fantastic - i would say Riera, for all his silky touch, is far far less effective than our dirk.

Word.

How many goals has Riera made this season?

by **DrPepe** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:13 pm

stmichael wrote:
DrPepe wrote:For someone who causes "our attacks to lose momentum" he 's doing fantastic - i would say Riera, for all his silky touch, is far far less effective than our dirk.

Word.

How many goals has Riera made this season?

5

3 PL bolton, villa, wigan
1 FAC PNE
1 CL PSV

by **Owzat** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:05 pm

bigmick wrote:As I say, no surprises there then I think I'll leave it at that, what with you and the other bloke this is going to go one way and that's round in circles. I give in, his first touch is fine, much better than people make out, he regularly beats players, and he completes lots of passes. I should have known better than even come in here, many times I've vowed not to and I just forget. It's all good, you discuss it with the other bloke .

His first touch isn't the best, but then his contribution more than makes up for ONE flaw. I'd rather a few poor touches and his contribution over winning most tackles and then giving the ball away or hoofing it upfield.

Most moves break down anyway, some because of a poor first touch by Kuyt, or other players, or a misplaced pass by Kuyt, or other players, or shooting wastefully by Kuyt, or other players, or trying to chip the goalie from halfway many times more often than he actually scores like Alonso, or trying to dribble past players and being robbed like Gerrard, Torres, Babel, Kuyt, etc etc etc. He keeps his game simple, sure he needs to work on his first touch and that's down to the manager, but if that's his only sin then I think I can live with it. As if other 'silky skills' wingers don't waste possession by the odd first touch, beating their man and putting in awful crosses, by predictably going on the outside every time and being sussed by the full-back etc.

You're right that some won't see things from any other point of view, true of so many things as well as players, sometimes to the extent someone will try to make out black is white. My problem is a lot of people focus entirely on that one flaw and make out like it is the be all and end all, as if the rest of the team are perfect in possession and never at fault for the same thing. You could pick any player in the team and find fault with them, even some of the stars who are pivotal to the team. I'm just glad Rafa seems to appreciate Kuyt's value, even if he does move him about a bit too much, and I don't think Rafa's looking to replace Kuyt as a priority.

I think the comparison with Riera is good, not just statistically, but it demonstrates how a player we don't lambast for poor first touches and "causing attacks to lose momentum" can produce less. So Kuyt may lose the ball by bad touch or lose momentum for the side, let's say 20% of the time, but if 40%+ of the time his contribution is an assist, goal or good link up play leading to an opening then I could live with that. If you did something similar for Mascherano you might find he wins the ball 25% of the time and loses it 25% of the time (missed tackle or giving away possession) Those are made up figures, but the fact remains Mascherano is not infallible and he may win the ball for which a lot of fans idolise him, but his passing, dribbling, shooting and other skills are between virtually non-existent and ok-good. We concede goals with him in the side, what's his next best attribute? Probably the "work-rate" that often gets aimed at Kuyt as a criticism

by **stmichael** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:27 pm

DrPepe wrote:
stmichael wrote:
DrPepe wrote:For someone who causes "our attacks to lose momentum" he 's doing fantastic - i would say Riera, for all his silky touch, is far far less effective than our dirk.

Word.

How many goals has Riera made this season?

5

3 PL bolton, villa, wigan
1 FAC PNE
1 CL PSV

I said "made" not scored.

Off the top of my head Kuyt against Chelsea and Torres' 2nd against Arsenal. I can't remember a lot more than that. His final ball is so frustrating at times.

by **DrPepe** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:35 pm

stmichael wrote:
DrPepe wrote:
stmichael wrote:
DrPepe wrote:For someone who causes "our attacks to lose momentum" he 's doing fantastic - i would say Riera, for all his silky touch, is far far less effective than our dirk.

Word.

How many goals has Riera made this season?

5

3 PL bolton, villa, wigan
1 FAC PNE
1 CL PSV

I said "made" not scored.

Off the top of my head Kuyt against Chelsea and Torres' 2nd against Arsenal. I can't remember a lot more than that. His final ball is so frustrating at times.

- i misread your post

3 goals , 4 assists in the PL according to my fantasy football website

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