Liverpool FC Forum

Bad Bob wrote:Okay, I've got some specific stats for you.  Goals and assists created by substitutes for the season.  Some will quibble because the subs added a late goal or an assist that put the gloss on a game that was already won.  But, there were important occasions where the subs scored or set up a vital or winning goal.  Also, let's not forget that goals and assists are far from the whole story.  A telling pass or a vital tackle can lead to a goal and thus counts as an important contribution.  So, without further ado, here's what the numbers look like (in order from the beginning of the season)...

(1) Alonso on as a sub against Sunderland and provided the assist for the match-winning goal
(2) Babel on as a sub against Standard Liege and provided the cross for the tie-winning goal
(3) Babel on as a sub against Man U and scores the match winner
(4) El Zhar on as a sub against Wigan and provides the assist for a vital goal (we won the match 3-2)
(5) Torres on as a sub against Bolton and provides an assist in a 2-0 win
(6) Riera on as a sub against Blackburn and provides an assist in a 3-1 win
(7) Alonso on as a sub against Newcastle and scores a late penalty
(8) Torres on as a sub against Preston and scores in a 2-0 win
(9) Benayoun on as a sub against Chelsea and provides an assist in a 2-0 win
(10) Torres on as a sub against Portsmouth and scores a vital goal in a 3-2 win
(11) Alonso on as a sub against Portsmouth and provides a vital assist in a 3-2 win
(12) Dossena on as a sub against Real Madrid and scores
(13) "                            "         Man U and scores
(14) Benayoun on as a sub against Fulham and scores a vital winner
(15) Ngog on as a sub against Blackburn and scores
(16) Lucas on as a sub against Blackburn and provides an assist
(17) Riera on as a sub at Stamford Bridge in the CL and provides an important assist

For my money, that's not a bad haul from the sub's bench this season.

So Babel coming on as a sub has only influenced 2 games out of how ever many we've played this season. 
Not sure Torres or Alonso really count as they should be in the first XI anyway but fair point and good stats.

Still reckon our bench is compared to Arsenal, Manure and the Chavs which actually makes it harder for Rafa to make an impact sub but I still disagree with taking Keane off with 10 minutes to go and replacing him with Eggnog or someone else. If you were Keane how would that make you feel? because I'd be mad as hell, difference is I'd probably focus on scoring in the next match instead of doing stupid heel flicks etc. 

tonyeh wrote:

Judge wrote:can someone change tonyeh post name to GENERAL

Field Marshal sounds better..   

oberfuhrer 

Bad Bob wrote:

tonyeh wrote:But I can't recall subbing Keane (no matter how one feels about him) nearly every game having too many positive effects for us and the same can be said for Benitez's penchant for replacing Riera with Babel at 60 minutes.

I should be marking exams this morning but I'm procrastinating so I thought I'd fact check this substitution business a little more (nothing personal, mate, just seeing if it panned out the way you remember).  The Babel for Riera one might surprise you a bit.

In the 50 games we've played this season in all comps, Babel has been brought on for Riera only 10 times.  The earliest was on 61 minutes (against Atletico Madrid), followed by the Stoke match, where he came on at the 65 minute mark and then WBA (66 min).  He came on after 71 min. during the 1-1 draw with Arsenal.  He came on in the 72nd minute against the Mancs at Anfield (and scored).  And, he came on against Arsenal on Tuesday at the 73 minute mark.  He appeared at the 78 minute mark twice (Fulham, West Ham), the 82nd minute mark once (Hull) and, finally, in the 90th minute once (Everton).  Incidentally, our record in those ten games was 2 wins and 8 draws.

So, I think you have a case to say he hasn't always been the most effective substitute (hell, I've been saying that all season!!!) but Rafa doesn't make the Babel for Riera switch nearly as much as you seem to think he does and almost never as early as you presume.

You're on firmer ground with Keane's situation, though, mate.  Keane only managed to finish five games he started for us (Boro, Man U, Fulham, PSV and Bolton).  In the other 18 games he started, he was brought off around the 72 minute mark on average (see break down below).  His earliest departure was on 53 minutes against Atletico and his latest was in injury time against Wigan.  Including the Atletico match, he was brought off before 70 minutes 6 times (33% of the time) and before 80 minutes 13 times (72% of the time).

What I think is most interesting, however, is that many of his early substitutions came in games where he lined up as the lone striker in the 4-2-3-1 formation: Atletico (@ 53'), Chelsea (@ 60'), Spurs (@ 66'), Atletico again (@ 71'), Bolton (@ 60') and Preston (@ 73').  Only in the 1-1 draw with Arsenal did he last beyond 80 minutes (subbed @ 81') playing as the lone striker.  I'll leave the interpretation of this to others...just found it interesting.

Anyways, the record of Keane subs in full:

1) Standard Liege...67'
2) Sunderland...77'
3) Standard Liege...83'
4) Villa...79'
5) Stoke...73'
6) Everton...86'
7) PSV...76'
8) Wigan...90'
9) Atletico Madrid...53'
10) Chelsea...60'
11) Spurs...66'
12) Atletico...71'
13) WBA...72'
14) Bolton...60'
15) WHU...66'
16) Arsenal...81'
17) Preston...73'
18) Everton...67'

Owzat wrote:

tonyeh wrote:

Judge wrote:can someone change tonyeh post name to GENERAL

Field Marshal sounds better..   

oberfuhrer 

Obergruppenführer Tony   

tonyeh wrote:

Owzat wrote:

tonyeh wrote:

Judge wrote:can someone change tonyeh post name to GENERAL

Field Marshal sounds better..   

oberfuhrer 

Obergruppenführer Tony   

heir flick more like

tonyeh wrote:Your making good points, but I'm still coming away thinking what I've thought all season.

Judge wrote:

tonyeh wrote:

Owzat wrote:

tonyeh wrote:

Judge wrote:can someone change tonyeh post name to GENERAL

Field Marshal sounds better..   

oberfuhrer 

Obergruppenführer Tony   

heir flick more like

Bad Bob wrote:

tonyeh wrote:Your making good points, but I'm still coming away thinking what I've thought all season.

Fair enough, mate.  FWIW, I completely agree about Keane for the same reason that I disagree about your overall point about the subs.  To me, the substitutions can seem uninspiring because, until Yossi's recent renaissance, our bench was largely uninspiring.  You can criticize Rafa for that (and I have several times this season) but, once that's taken as given, I don't quite understand what people expect with his substitutions.  It's hard to turn a pig's ear into a silk purse, so asking Rafa to make amazing substitutions with limited personnel strikes me as strange.  Riera, for instance, never looked capable of going the full 90 early in the season and faded out of a lot of games between the 60 and 70 minute mark.  Thus, the smart move is to substitute him but who are your options to replace him?  Babel and Benayoun, really.  With both showing indifferent form for much of the first half of the season I'm not surprised it didn't look the most inspired change.  Still, they both managed to produce a few telling contributions during that time.

Anyways, back to my point about Keane.  Because we didn't have a great deal of reliable quality on the bench, I agree with you that it would have been better to keep him on longer in many of the games he was taken off.  With Kuyt on the wing and Babel no great shakes as a striker (despite what he and a few others might think) the options for replacing Keane up top with someone quality were limited.  It's important to remember, as well, that this was a period when Torres was often receiving treatment for his hamstrings and thus we were without one of our two most potent attacking talents.  Taking Keane off in those circumstances often seemed a strange decision indeed.

Fowler_E7 wrote:selling Keane was an awful decision, probably not as bad as signing him in the first place with no plan with which to use him but whats the point of signing someone and then selling him on in 6 months when you have no credible cover Torres? Luckily for us Torres hasnt got injured again and the team is playing well but i would say the whole Keane saga has been the one disapointment in an otherwise postitive season.

Bad Bob wrote:

tonyeh wrote:My biggest problem though still remains with the 60+ sub thing. There have been times when I and others have been screaming out for a change to be made and there's none forth coming until the usual mark. What's wrong with a change on 30 minutes, or at half time?

I just don't get that.

Still though, as you say. There's not a lot of choice.

Oh, I see now...you were thinking the subs were made too late rather than too early...my bad.

In that case, I still disagree but for a different reason.  I'm personally not a fan of a first-half tactical substitution unless things are going horribly wrong and I cannot think of a moment where that situation applied to us in the first half of a game this season.  I can think of games where we made stupid mistakes or looked a yard off the required pace but I can't think of one where we needed a complete tactical re-think.  That, IMO, has a lot to do with Rafa's tactical acumen.  Say what you will about his cautious nature but he rarely sets us up in a way that sees us radically outmaneuvred.

So, the only other reason to make an early tactical switch is if an individual player is having an absolute 'mare.  Again, I can think of several sub-par performances in first halves this season but none that required a player to be hauled off so early.  Most of the lads know what's expected of them and put in a solid shift.

Once you get through the first half, you have the half-time interval to make tactical adjustments or to light a fire under an underperformer's a.rse.  As such, I don't really see much need for half-time substitutions either.  Get them in the locker room, get it clear where they need to improve, get them gee'd up for the restart and then give them another 10-15 minutes to see if they'll turn things around.  That's just smart management, IMO.

This is one of the reasons why I rarely log into the match thread during the game (besides the obvious reason that I'm watching the game on telly at the time)--I find that people are often FAR too impatient with the lads and with Rafa when things aren't quite going as planned.  Comments like "get him off, Rafa, FFS" or "we need a triple switch at half time" are bandied about with gay abandon, even if we're playing well and have just not grabbed a goal yet.  More often than not, though, patience pays off and we get the breakthrough we want after the interval and certain impatient types end up looking a little foolish.  I often think too many people conclude it's not working too early and expect Rafa to shake things up prematurely.  And for what?  As we've just agreed, the choices he often has on the bench are not of the same calibre as the lads he has on the pitch so why on earth would we be in rush to get the substitutions in?

I don't see why you think half-time substitutions are not needed.

I am not going to slaughter Rafa because of his substitutions but I don't really understand why you think a half time sub is needed?

If we had a manager who did change things around at half time and in large we got a better result because of it in the second half would you still say they were needless?

I personally do feel Rafa's substitutions are a bit predictable at times and surely this would play into the hands of an oppossing manager. Who would have a damned good idea at what time the sub was going to be made and depending on the result, whether we need to stick or bust. It becomes much easier for an oppossing manager to counteract the sub made by Rafa.

I personally wouldnt mind seeing Rafa every now and again break up his predicatble rythmn of substituions. I am not having a pop at the manager as I do not believe this is a detrimental fact for a league challenge.

But if your at home to Stoke and it is nil nil at half time and your team has done everything except sticking the ball in the back of the net. A change could indeed be warranted for the second half, by and large we do struggle in breaking certain teams down bringing a player on 15 mins could be a vital factor on the impending result.

It is just food for thought and not a stick to beat Rafa with by and large I think he has improved along with the team this campaign.

It almost qualifies as semantics this topic, but none the less could be important.

I don't think we should dwell on it too much.