Liverpool FC Forum

by **SuppleMonkey** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:08 am

So in essence that's the topic starter, that's the question. What lessons can we learn from our first genuine title challenge in years? Any? None? Some?

I think lessons can always be learned and improved upon no matter the team and their status. Concerning us maybe the the seemingly needlessley use to rotate as heavily as we have done in the past. If that figure or 75 changes in the first 15 games is true it is quite frightening in my opinion. The question shouldnt of been what have we learned but what has Rafa learned especially taking into consideration the use of rotation. I'd like to think that Rafa can bring in some other dimensions of football that we can learn from, but I would also like to think that he can appreciate and learn things from English football.

I think Rafa has definately learned the hard way about English football by and large he has played a more consistent team pending a few changes and the team and results I would guess have improved.

In saying that I do not think it is easy to say that we should of held a ten point lead over Manchester United for the majority of the season. Especially as this season has panned out with 'smaller' teams taking points off the top four. I think we always try to win our games and although we do seem to approach our games with a more cautious style there will in my opinion always be blips. Even for the flair sides as far as lessons learnt goes it just goes to show we need to keep plugging away each and every game to claim three points. Adding some more creative or game breakers to our team would help us do this against the likes of Stoke but the funds or the red tape involved in going out and buying these players may not always be feesible.

A good lesson learned is that by thumping your arch rivals by 4 goals to 1 in their own backyard really improves your chances and the pshycological impact that can have is only good for the team dishing out the thumping. It certainly has got that mouthy Scot wound up I reckon and double victories over other title challengers is very important challenging for a title.

by **DrPepe** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:32 am

SuppleMonkey wrote:A good lesson learned is that by thumping your arch rivals by 4 goals to 1 in their own backyard really improves your chances and the pshycological impact that can have is only good for the team dishing out the thumping. It certainly has got that mouthy Scot wound up I reckon and double victories over other title challengers is very important challenging for a title.

apart from their games against us , both chelsea and the mancs are actually doing better this season than last, despite the perception that the nonbig4 are taking more points this season

in other words, our double double over those 2 has created our own elevated situation, rather than our title challenge simply being a by-product of a "less-dominant" big2 this season

by **Judge** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:50 pm

Alex G. wrote:
Judge wrote:apparantly every team that has had 2 or fewer losses in a season have won the league

liverpool have only 2

yes, but no one have had 10 + draws....

pessimist

by **stmichael** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:57 pm

What this season has tought me is that whilst we may lack a bit of quality in some areas, the character in this side is a joy. The number of times we've shot ourselves in the foot by conceding a soft goal and then stormed back this season is a real testiment to the commitment of the players.

It was highly evident at the beginning of the season, then disappeared for a while and cost us. We seem to have the fighting spirit back and there isn't a team in the world who can beat us when we have it.

by **TheLad** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:16 pm

stmichael wrote:What this season has tought me is that whilst we may lack a bit of quality in some areas, the character in this side is a joy. The number of times we've shot ourselves in the foot by conceding a soft goal and then stormed back this season is a real testiment to the commitment of the players.

It was highly evident at the beginning of the season, then disappeared for a while and cost us. We seem to have the fighting spirit back and there isn't a team in the world who can beat us when we have it.

Spot on.

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:55 pm

I like some of your optimism but i'm a realist. Man Utd have 6 games left and need to drop at LEAST 6 points (if they win their game in hand against Wigan). I can't see it happening. If we had won on tuesday they would of only need to drop 4 points, which was asking alot then.

Man Utd's Run-in -

Tottenham (H)
Middlesbrough (A)
Man City (H)
Wigan (A)
Arsenal (H)
Hull (A)

The only game you can reliably hold out for a result against Man Utd is the Arsenal game. The only other match I see see a glimmer of hope in is the derby.

You may think i'm being pessimistic but there comes a stage when you can still believe but realistically you know its slipped away.

Hats off to the lads regardless, they've produced the best season we've played for a long time. With some good signings in the summer hopefully next season won't see us choking when we have the chance to cement the league.

(copied from the other thread)

by **GRAHAM01** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:13 pm

SouthCoastShankly wrote:I like some of your optimism but i'm a realist. Man Utd have 6 games left and need to drop at LEAST 6 points (if they win their game in hand against Wigan). I can't see it happening. If we had won on tuesday they would of only need to drop 4 points, which was asking alot then.

Man Utd's Run-in -

Tottenham (H)
Middlesbrough (A)
Man City (H)
Wigan (A)
Arsenal (H)
Hull (A)

The only game you can reliably hold out for a result against Man Utd is the Arsenal game. The only other match I see see a glimmer of hope in is the derby.

You may think i'm being pessimistic but there comes a stage when you can still believe but realistically you know its slipped away.

Hats off to the lads regardless, they've produced the best season we've played for a long time. With some good signings in the summer hopefully next season won't see us choking when we have the chance to cement the league.

(copied from the other thread)

you are right with your point in that it is now a long shot but i still believe we have a chance

thay are not playing well ( ok at best )

you picked out man v man and man v ars as the games that they could slip up on but i think there are a couple of banana skins with the lesser teams as well as they are fighting to stop up and you never know what they will do

pomp were 6 points clear of the drop and i think they think they are safe so did not fight tooth and nail last night and they just looked :censored:

, i am holding the hope of a loss to ars or man c and a draw with mid and man c or ars ( which ever does not beat them )

that is the hope and i'm sticking with it

by **Octsky** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:58 am

they may drop points in man city and arsenal game. boro is fighting for their lives too. should have seen ronaldo damn arrogant celebration in the spurs game. GOD if only we can wipe the :censored:

's smile off his face.

by **Owzat** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:06 am

I'm reluctantly going to look at what we need the mancs to do, the problem is we've been focusing on the mancs dropping points and yet it's us that have further slipped up and they've won four on the bounce.

So what do we need them to do? Well for this to work, we need to pick up maximum points, I stressed a while back that we don't just need them to drop X points, but X points more than us We dropped two points, that means they need to drop two more points than before - six now instead of four.

1. Man Utd P33 PTS 77 (GD +38)
2. Liverpool P34 PTS 74 (GD +40)

Maximum we can reach is 86 points, we could win on GD so we need the mancs to pick up no more than nine points from five games - assuming we manage 12 ourselves. If we drop more points then it really is over, last night's result could have left the contest wide open had the mancs not won.

manc permutations

4-5 wins - they win the Premiership
3 wins - that is nine points on it's own so we would need them to lose the other two
1-2 wins - in this scenario they can't get more than nine points >>> P5 W2 D3 L0 PTS 9

All the above is irrelevant unless we win all our remaining games. You only have to look at the respective home records to see why we're behind, last season was the same

HOME RECORDS

08/09 Man Utd : P17 W15 D1 L1 PTS 46
08/09 Liverpool : P17 W10 D7 L0 PTS 37

07/08 Man Utd : P19 W17 D1 L1 PTS 52
07/08 Liverpool : P19 W12 D6 L1 PTS 42

So they gained 10 points on us at home last season, finished 11 points ahead of us. This season they've gained nine points on us at home, they are just three points ahead this time but have a game in hand - away to Wigan who they've a 100% record against (not a home game, but could make the gap gap six points not three) We need to start winning more often at home, only once in the Premiership have we managed 15 home wins (05/06), and the last side to win the Premiership having won just 12 home games (what we'll be on if we win our last two) was Arsenal in 01/02 when they won 14 away (which we can't) Last team to win the Premiership with 25 wins was the mancs in 02/03

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:12 am

The tottenham result only enforced my pessimism. We don't stand a chance winning the league when the refereeing decisions Man Utd receive are that biased!

by **bigmick** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:18 am

They got a huge helping hand over the line in the final game last season as well as I remember. They went into it level on points with Chelsea, and Steve Bennet did them a huge favour. I remember that bit but can't remember what it was.

Maybe we should add into our lessons learned, "don't rotate so much from game one", "go for it more" etc etc don't count on them being unlucky with any refereeing decisions down the Home stretch of the title race. It does seem like there is almost a conspiracy sometimes amongst the powers that be, refs, the FA, the media etc to ensure that they win it each time. It could be one of the reasons why I like Mourinho more than pretty much anyone else on here it seems, he came in and smashed all that up. Our managers onto it now though, so along with the re-emergence of Arsenal and Chelsea, I think even if they do match us this season my money would be on someone else winning it next.

by **Owzat** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:20 am

SouthCoastShankly wrote:The tottenham result only enforced my pessimism. We don't stand a chance winning the league when the refereeing decisions Man Utd receive are that biased!

You mean one bad decision compared to lots of bad/absent defending? spudz lost because they couldn't defend, they allowed the mancs too much space and time in possession and got caught out because the mancs exploited it fully. Only one of the spudz goals was down to a "poor" refereeing decision.

I read a letter to teletext asking how many players we've had sent off against us this season and is it a record. We didn't exactly get the worse of decisions yesterday, we've had plenty of decisions work in our favour this season and last - we could have conceded a lot more penalties than we have for starters.

by **Scottbot** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:22 am

I don't think us winning the title is as far-fetched or unlikely as most, even after the Tottenham comeback yesterday. If we can take care of business I still think we have a real shot at this thing. Everyone seems to be certain the mancs need to lose to the Gooners and City (plus don't forget Boro turned them over last season) for it to happen but so long as they lose one of their next four games and we win ours we could be going into the last day of the season with the following scenario:

- LFC sitting 3 points behind them with a better goal difference
- The mancs play Hull at the KC needing only a draw to win the title
- Hull playing the mancs needing a win to stay in the division

so long as we keep winning it's quite possible and there is nothing worse than playing for a draw if your an attacking team like the mancs, especially when it's the last day of the season with a partisan crowd to deal with. I've got my fingers crossed.

by **Effes** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:22 am

Owzat wrote:I'm reluctantly going to look at what we need the mancs to do, the problem is we've been focusing on the mancs dropping points and yet it's us that have further slipped up and they've won four on the bounce.

So what do we need them to do? Well for this to work, we need to pick up maximum points, I stressed a while back that we don't just need them to drop X points, but X points more than us We dropped two points, that means they need to drop two more points than before - six now instead of four.

1. Man Utd P33 PTS 77 (GD +38)
2. Liverpool P34 PTS 74 (GD +40)

Maximum we can reach is 86 points, we could win on GD so we need the mancs to pick up no more than nine points from five games - assuming we manage 12 ourselves. If we drop more points then it really is over, last night's result could have left the contest wide open had the mancs not won.

manc permutations

4-5 wins - they win the Premiership
3 wins - that is nine points on it's own so we would need them to lose the other two
1-2 wins - in this scenario they can't get more than nine points >>> P5 W2 D3 L0 PTS 9

All the above is irrelevant unless we win all our remaining games. You only have to look at the respective home records to see why we're behind, last season was the same

HOME RECORDS

08/09 Man Utd : P17 W15 D1 L1 PTS 46
08/09 Liverpool : P17 W10 D7 L0 PTS 37

07/08 Man Utd : P19 W17 D1 L1 PTS 52
07/08 Liverpool : P19 W12 D6 L1 PTS 42

So they gained 10 points on us at home last season, finished 11 points ahead of us. This season they've gained nine points on us at home, they are just three points ahead this time but have a game in hand - away to Wigan who they've a 100% record against (not a home game, but could make the gap gap six points not three) We need to start winning more often at home, only once in the Premiership have we managed 15 home wins (05/06), and the last side to win the Premiership having won just 12 home games (what we'll be on if we win our last two) was Arsenal in 01/02 when they won 14 away (which we can't) Last team to win the Premiership with 25 wins was the mancs in 02/03

Concise and well laid out mate.

I guess the bottom line is that the Mancs need to lose 2 for us to have a chance.

As I said elsewhere, we are running out of games.

by **Feeney** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:39 am

SouthCoastShankly wrote:I like some of your optimism but i'm a realist. Man Utd have 6 games left and need to drop at LEAST 6 points (if they win their game in hand against Wigan). I can't see it happening. If we had won on tuesday they would of only need to drop 4 points, which was asking alot then.

Man Utd's Run-in -

Tottenham (H)
Middlesbrough (A)
Man City (H)
Wigan (A)
Arsenal (H)
Hull (A)

The only game you can reliably hold out for a result against Man Utd is the Arsenal game. The only other match I see see a glimmer of hope in is the derby.

You may think i'm being pessimistic but there comes a stage when you can still believe but realistically you know its slipped away.

Hats off to the lads regardless, they've produced the best season we've played for a long time. With some good signings in the summer hopefully next season won't see us choking when we have the chance to cement the league.

(copied from the other thread)

The season will be won or lost on the three games against Man City, Wigan and Arsenal - 3 games over 8 days. If they are going to falter, thats where it will be.

If we keep pushing, anything can happen.

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Our first genuine title challenge in years... - Lessons to be learned?

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