Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:33 pm

As the season has panned out, as our challenge has meandered along, we've entered unchartered waters a few times. Some of the time we've handled it quite well, whereas on other occasions we've not unnaturally looked like we aren't sure whether to stick or twist, to raise or call. At times we've won despite not playing well which is the tried and trusted hallmark of a good team, while over the last six weeks or so we've been playing about as well as any Liverpool team over the last twenty years.

Our efforts may yet prove to be enough. Manchester United may indeed drop yet more points and we are close enough to capitalise if they do. Like the other two big four teams, they made it to the FA Cup semi final. They'll no doubt beat Everton and like Chelsea will have the final at the back of their minds. Also, like the same other two big four teams they reached the Champions League semi final, and it wouldn't be the biggest surprise in the World if they progressed in that as well. There will be many distractions for them, as there has been for Arsenal before and after they visit Anfield. We of course have no such complications, and the fact we only have a half dozen games to worry about should mean that we will be able to give a good account of ourselves over the remaining games. I reckon we'll be ready should they slip up, and will finish closer than many of us had predicted. For my part, for most of the season my guess has been second and eight points back, and it seems a certainty we'll be much closer than that.

So what if we don't quite do it (and indeed even if we do), what lessons have we learnt, what conclusions can we draw from the campaign? With the benefit of hindsight, did we get it always right, or were there areas where we could have possibly given ourselves a better chance? Is it concieveable that we could have been sitting pretty by now, with the Mancs hoping we fecked it up rather than the other way around? Is it even possible that we are better off being the chaser rather than the chased, better off not being under the closest of scrutiny as the Mancs will be over the next few games?

It may seem odd to be asking the question at this stage, but as you may or may not be aware I haven't been around these parts too much lately. If perish the thought we didn't beat Arsenal, then naturally any such questions would be buried under a tirade of insults. You'd be "happy the team lost", "not a real fan" and all that stuff. Asking the question now, while the team is flying and still in with a good chance should hopefully avoid some of that at least, though obviously not all.

So in essence that's the topic starter, that's the question. What lessons can we learn from our first genuine title challenge in years? Any? None? Some?

Needless to say I have a few theories of my own, I'll post em up in a bit.

by **Effes** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:10 pm

Well Mick, I think you would have got different answers if you'd posted this thread 2 months ago.

Normally a "lesson learned" focuses on negatives, and implies that you learn by your mistakes.

For me, the biggest leason learned this season is that we know we can go to Stamford Bridge and Old Trafford and win.
We've never done that before, and it gives the team a huge lift to get victories at these places.
Our record against the top 4 has always been patchy, but this season we have put that to bed.

I guess the draws at home are something that stares straight back at you when you look at the table.
That is something that needs to be addressed too.

by **Well Red** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:28 pm

Lesson #1 Never go into the business end of the season with only one Premier League quality striker, irrelevant of how class he is

Lesson #1 Never bow to Alex Ferguson's mind games. Our manager does not need to discuss 'facts' to the press.

Lession #3 Always bring in an attacking-minded January signing if you want to push for the title. Tight league games often need a attacking substitution around the 60-minute mark to bring something fresh and gear the team towards that final push for the victory, and a tight league game is a microcosm of the season as a whole. Players of Riera standard who will just add an extra something when the first teamers are tired from playing 30+ games. We didn't do that this year.

Lesson #4 Winning the majority of the key games against the big four is possible, but this alone is not enough. Most teams need to be put to the sword at Anfield, and certainly all lesser teams away from home.

Lesson #5 Come-backs and last minute goals are fantastic, but champions should not find themselves having to haul themselves back into games behind against the likes of City, Boro, Hull etc as much as we've done this term. Hence lesson number 6...

Lesson #6 Scoring the first goal in matches is crucial.

Lesson #7 Work out your best XI and stick with it as far as possible in the league. Rotate in other competitions.
Well Read, Well Red

by **babu** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:31 pm

Lesson learned:
1 - Judge the season & the manager's performance at the end, NOT during.
2 - don't cut chilli and then rub your eye.

by **Sabre** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:42 pm

I'm too happy that you're back to disagree with anything so soon, so I'll just answer the question

What lessons can we learn from our first genuine title challenge in years? Any? None? Some?

Some:

1.- We should have get rid of Parry way before.

2.- Rafa should have known well the kind of player he brings to the club. Regardless Parry wanted to pay more or less, Rafa should have foreseen that Keane isn't the kind of player that likes to be subbed or ready to fight for a place. We can't afford signings like that again.

3.- We were not miles away of winning it, a couple of adjustments, can bring you the necessary points to cut an important distance.

4.- We have progressed in a very noticeable way.

5.- We shouldn't think of getting rid of players like Mascherano just because they have a more average season. Same applies to other top class players. Form is temporary and class is permanent and all that.

by **bigmick** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:45 pm

Well following on from Well Reds observations and not getting into those just now, we can probably take a couple of things as red, without any pun. Some of us have claimed for five seasons that you'll never win the Premiership whilst employing "Rafa style". By that I think the point is/was that you couldn't change the team 75 times in the first 15 matches, you couldn't mass rotate from game one and expect to get enough momentum to win the title. We kind of seemed to "see the light" last season, and at the start of this we gave ourselves the opportunity to challenge bu seeing it even more. It was/is nice to get one right once in a while, and I think we can take it as red that we won't be seeing any mass rotation at the start of next season either.

Equally however, some of us claimed that Rafa Benitez would never win the title with Liverpool. He may still not of course, ever, but it would be silly to deny that we are plenty close enough as of now to render the claim that will "never" win the title under him in the sense it was meant, incorrect. Some would counter (me amongst them unsurprisingly) that the set of circumstances which have presented themselves this season have been almost uniquely favourable to us, but whatever, we may very well win it yet which renders the original statement incorrect. Equally, some (me once again surprise surprise) may argue that we really ought to be in a commanding position as of now given those circumstances, but once again it doesn't alter the facts of where we are and where we may end up.

The feeling is though that we are in all probability going to need to improve some next season in order to win it, especially if we don't quite get there this time (I think if we do win it the improvement will take care of itself). If we beat Arsenal this week, we'll have won five and drawn one of our six games against big four opposition (not counting Cup games obviously). I would guess that nobody in the history of the Premiership has had a record like that, and I'd be surprised if anybody ever will again either. So my guess is that we'll do very well in those six matches next season to get within six points of our likely return this time around, so we'll need to find some extra points from somewhere.

Anyway, well Red makes some interesting points.

by **bigmick** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:02 pm

Sabre wrote:I'm too happy that you're back to disagree with anything so soon, so I'll just answer the question

What lessons can we learn from our first genuine title challenge in years? Any? None? Some?

Some:

1.- We should have get rid of Parry way before.

2.- Rafa should have known well the kind of player he brings to the club. Regardless Parry wanted to pay more or less, Rafa should have foreseen that Keane isn't the kind of player that likes to be subbed or ready to fight for a place. We can't afford signings like that again.

3.- We were not miles away of winning it, a couple of adjustments, can bring you the necessary points to cut an important distance.

4.- We have progressed in a very noticeable way.

5.- We shouldn't think of getting rid of players like Mascherano just because they have a more average season. Same applies to other top class players. Form is temporary and class is permanent and all that.

Well thanks for the welcome back Sabre, although I'm a bit surpised you could find too much to disagree with in the topic starter as I didn't really offer any opinions, just a bunch of questions.

Still, that aside I agree with most of your points though obviously not all.

The Parry observation is an interesting one. I never did myself subscribe to the theory that he was hugely influencial one way or another, and I can't say his stepping down at the end of the season looks to me like it's had an effect on the way we are playing. He was sitting next to Gerrard in the stands the other night, so clearly he's still in the loop to some extent.

Keanegate is a subject that I've no doubt will be debated should we not win the title, I agree with you there.

I agree we weren't miles away from winning it. We were eleven points back last season with Torres fit all year round, scoring 30 goals. I felt then if we'd given ourselves a chance that season we would have gone very close. We've given ourselves a chance this season and we are going very very close, so my conclusion is that we may last season have been a wee bit stronger than I gave us credit for. I said we were plenty good enough to have challenged, whereas it now looks like we could even possibly have won it. I never was convinced that Avram Grants Chelsea were that great as they cruised past us in the league and knocked us out of Europe, and it now looks like they weren't. I agree with you here, we weren't miles off.

4. We have progressed massively over the last six weeks or so. It is so obvious that denying it would indicate either blindness or somebody who doesn't understand football. I thought the performance from the team in the first half hour at Stamford Bridge the other night was the best I'd seen us play in years.

5. I agree with the class being permanent thing, although not all players who plunge their own depths of form bounce back like Alonso did. Sometimes you have to accept it isn't going to happen. The manager was wrong as it turned out about Alonso as he now is playing immeasureably better than he had in the previous two seasons. He was right though about Morientes. Sometimes you just have to believe your own eyes.

So yes, I agree with all your points except for the Parry one. Him being CEO didn't make the team play average, and him agreeing to step down at the ned of the season isn't making them play well as of now.

by **tubby** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:10 pm

Good to see you back bigmick.

by **J*o*n*D*o*e** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:49 pm

welcome back mick, now where did i put my reading glasses

by **Scottbot** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:11 pm

bigmick wrote:As the season has panned out, as our challenge has meandered along, we've entered unchartered waters a few times. Some of the time we've handled it quite well, whereas on other occasions we've not unnaturally looked like we aren't sure whether to stick or twist, to raise or call. At times we've won despite not playing well which is the tried and trusted hallmark of a good team, while over the last six weeks or so we've been playing about as well as any Liverpool team over the last twenty years.

Our efforts may yet prove to be enough. Manchester United may indeed drop yet more points and we are close enough to capitalise if they do. Like the other two big four teams, they made it to the FA Cup semi final. They'll no doubt beat Everton and like Chelsea will have the final at the back of their minds. Also, like the same other two big four teams they reached the Champions League semi final, and it wouldn't be the biggest surprise in the World if they progressed in that as well. There will be many distractions for them, as there has been for Arsenal before and after they visit Anfield. We of course have no such complications, and the fact we only have a half dozen games to worry about should mean that we will be able to give a good account of ourselves over the remaining games. I reckon we'll be ready should they slip up, and will finish closer than many of us had predicted. For my part, for most of the season my guess has been second and eight points back, and it seems a certainty we'll be much closer than that.

So what if we don't quite do it (and indeed even if we do), what lessons have we learnt, what conclusions can we draw from the campaign? With the benefit of hindsight, did we get it always right, or were there areas where we could have possibly given ourselves a better chance? Is it concieveable that we could have been sitting pretty by now, with the Mancs hoping we fecked it up rather than the other way around? Is it even possible that we are better off being the chaser rather than the chased, better off not being under the closest of scrutiny as the Mancs will be over the next few games?

It may seem odd to be asking the question at this stage, but as you may or may not be aware I haven't been around these parts too much lately. If perish the thought we didn't beat Arsenal, then naturally any such questions would be buried under a tirade of insults. You'd be "happy the team lost", "not a real fan" and all that stuff. Asking the question now, while the team is flying and still in with a good chance should hopefully avoid some of that at least, though obviously not all.

So in essence that's the topic starter, that's the question. What lessons can we learn from our first genuine title challenge in years? Any? None? Some?

Needless to say I have a few theories of my own, I'll post em up in a bit.

Well in lad! Good to have ya back on. Good post, had me stag do last night so will post my thoughts when i can gather one and i don't feel a hundred years old!

by **JoeTerp** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:17 pm

bigmick wrote:4. We have progressed massively over the last six weeks or so. It is so obvious that denying it would indicate either blindness or somebody who doesn't understand football. I thought the performance from the team in the first half hour at Stamford Bridge the other night was the best I'd seen us play in years.

5. I agree with the class being permanent thing, although not all players who plunge their own depths of form bounce back like Alonso did. Sometimes you have to accept it isn't going to happen. The manager was wrong as it turned out about Alonso as he now is playing immeasureably better than he had in the previous two seasons. He was right though about Morientes. Sometimes you just have to believe your own eyes.

I think you said something similar about our last trip to the bridge

Not really sure its fair to give Rafa the "got it wrong" check mark on the Alonso situation. Obviously he had enough faith and knew there was a good enough chance of him bouncing back that he held firm on his asking price. And further, you have to give him credit for being able to mend the relationship and keep Xabi happy even after it was made public knowledge that he was on the chopping block.

by **Madmax** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:09 pm

Many lesson could be learnt from this challenge. Had a decent list but all have been answered by posts above.

by **maguskwt** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:50 pm

I'm surprised nobody has picked this up yet. Lesson learned:

"Rafa-Style", changing the team, the formation and/or the positions which the players play in with the frequency and to the degree which Rafa does will never be successful in the English premier League.

by **ken_job** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:38 pm

Think this discussion is a bit premature...starts the ball rolling perhaps but how can you draw any conclusions when the season has so far to go....?

Talk to you in a couple weeks time

by **bigmick** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:34 pm

maguskwt wrote:I'm surprised nobody has picked this up yet. Lesson learned:

"Rafa-Style", changing the team, the formation and/or the positions which the players play in with the frequency and to the degree which Rafa does will never be successful in the English premier League.

Ah I see the propensity to not actually bother reading posts is still alive and well.

"Well following on from Well Reds observations and not getting into those just now, we can probably take a couple of things as red, without any pun. Some of us have claimed for five seasons that you'll never win the Premiership whilst employing "Rafa style". By that I think the point is/was that you couldn't change the team 75 times in the first 15 matches, you couldn't mass rotate from game one and expect to get enough momentum to win the title. We kind of seemed to "see the light" last season, and at the start of this we gave ourselves the opportunity to challenge bu seeing it even more. It was/is nice to get one right once in a while, and I think we can take it as red that we won't be seeing any mass rotation at the start of next season either."

I think "Rafa-style" was touched on here, but nevermind we might as well give the impression it wasn't.

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Our first genuine title challenge in years... - Lessons to be learned?

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