Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sir Roger** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:50 pm

heimdall wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
heimdall wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:
heimdall wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:
The_Rock wrote:
heimdall wrote:I wonder what Rafa needs to do to make the list?

Top of my head ....

1)Win the premier league

2)Be a team-player type of manager... (ie...doesn't cut of his nose to spit his face when the CEO signs players like Crouch, Bellamy, Pennant, Agger, Keane, Babel...etc).

3)Signs players who are suited to the english league (Strong, Pacy players with good 1st touch).

4)Buys quality instead of quantity (Makes use of the millions he get every season to buy 1st team players to improve the team... Not to load the squad with average players).

5)Doesn't bite the hand the feeds him (ie....don't do interviews that puts the club in a bad light...don't make use of his "friends" to pass inaccurate news of clubs being interested to sign him and put himself above the club)

6)Great Man-mangement skills ..what differentiates a manager from a run of a mill coach is that he has to have this.... He has to have this trait. Players must give their 100% every match for their manager.

7)A good media personality - .He has to give awesome interviews & Quotes...Yapping to the press in monotonous voice which puts a caffin-loaded person to sleep is a strict 'NO-NO'. ......

Are you saying Rafa has none of these qualities?

I didn't make that statement but I agree with it. I would say, as I always have said, that Rafa is a good coach but a very average manager. His biggest failing is in man-management and signings oh and negative tactics, plus leaking news too serve his OWN, not Liverpool's, interests. Having said that he is bloody brilliant in Europe, I have to give him that.

Not that brilliant
He lost us the CL final in Athens

Oh, well, excuse the f*ck out of him for getting us there.

Sorry

Thanks for getting us there, getting our hopes up and losing to a far inferior AC milan than when we won it because of insane team selection and tactics

Is that better?

Spoken like a true glory hunter.

Have to laugh at the "far inferior" Milan jib there. Total bollox, and teams and managers, as well as pundits, always make the same mistake of assuming such a thing, which I can never understand why considering the plethora of absolute legends they had playing for them in most positions. Oh, but they are old. I forgot. Fergie must have assumed the same thing.

Should we have beat them in '05? No f*cking way. But we did. That's football. But I still blame Benitez for forming us into a side capable of actually getting to such finals. He's cruel that fella. Making us dream and believe in such things.

Yeah that is cruel of Rafa, I agree.

Can you explain this term glory hunter, it's allways confused me why someone who is a glory hunter would support us and not Arsenal, Man Utd or the Chavs. Make it good this time Emerald.

We're sh*te unless we win a bit of silverware, and it's either the players/manager's fault, and then our rivals are looked upon and envied and they secretly wish we were that good, or that they could jump ship. It's like telling your ma to f*ck off at Christmas because she didn't get you that Mechano set you always wanted, but instead got something totally useless. But f*ck the thought of it, or that there is always next year. Complete lack of faith. Complete lack of respect. Good enough for ye, Heimdall? Or should I be more poetic?

I like how credit is often deflected because in the minds of certain individuals, hopes were built, and they were let down. That's life, and it happens. I too was disappointed. Sometimes you just have to applaud the effort. You don't always get what you want. No point crying about it.

But if you see something wrong do you not want to make it better?

BTW Thanks for giving me your definition of a glory hunter, I don't feel as put out by it now, although I don't think that was your intention.

By your definition a glory hunter is someone who wants their team to be the best they can be, so yes I guess I am a glory hunter, I want my team to bask in glory. What is so wrong with that btw?

Whoa!
How did I miss this beauty?
ER. "Glory Hunter"?
Would this be insinuating I have followed my team for over forty years simply because I hunt glory?
Maybe so
Or maybe its because I have seen many many glorious times in glorious years that I crave more.
I have brought my kids up with tales of glory and how lucky they are that they, because of their dad, and him because of his dad, and him etc, etc are Liverpudlians. The greatest fans of the greatest team in the world.
(They used to cry for their mum when they were younger because she was an Evertonian and they felt sorry for her)
I have said that I sometimes take things too hard, like avoidable defeats. That is a characteristic which has lessened due to age. But in its place is a frustration brought about when Rafa, for example does things like he did in Athens.
Maybe I should be more like yourself and accept defeat gracefully?
Probably. But because I dont it doesnt make me a "Glory Hunter"
It makes me a "Winner"
Something I was brought up with
:;):

by **Owzat** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:56 pm

Where would Kenny rank in among Liverpool managers?

1. Bob Paisley (26/07/74 to 23/05/83)
League : Six times Winners (twice Runners-Up)
Top Flight : P378 W212 D99 L67 (Won 56.08%)

European Cup : Three times Winners (1977, 1978, 1981)
UEFA Cup : Winners 1976
League Cup : Three times Winners (1981, 1982, 1983)

His record speaks for itself, only thing missing is the FA Cup which was won before him by Bill Shankly and not again until Dalglish took us to the double.

2. Bill Shankly (01/12/59 to 12/07/74)
League : Three times Winners (twice Runners-Up)
Top Flight : P504 W260 D129 L115 (Won 51.59%)

UEFA Cup : Winners 1973
FA Cup : Twice Winners (1965, 1974)

Superb record, not least in light of taking us out of the doldrums of the second division and leading us to be the best club in England and Europe (at the time)

3. Kenny Dalglish (30/05/85 to 22/02/91)
League : Three times Winners (three times Runners-Up)
Top Flight : P224 W136 D56 L32 (Won 60.71%)

FA Cup : Twice Winners (FA Cup & League Double in 1986, 1989)

Never had a chance to take Liverpool into Europe, reached a cup final in 1986, 1987, 1988 AND 1989, AND won the league or finished second in every season in charge, leaving us top of the pile - how many managers can boast that?

Won the biggest percentage of games of any Liverpool manager in a time when we were banned from Europe. Only six Liverpool managers have managed 50%+ wins in the top flight, Bill Shankly began a run of four of them consecutively, Rafael Benitez and David Ashworth are the other two

4. Joe Fagan (23/05/83 to 30/05/85)
League : Winners 1983/84, Runners-Up 1984/85
Top Flight : P84 W44 D25 L15 (Won 52.38%)

European Cup : Winners 1984, Runners-Up 1985
League Cup : Winners 1984

It's hard to place Joe in the rankings, only two seasons in charge winning the league, European Cup and League Cup in one season, and finishing Runners-Up in the league and Europe in his second. "However as it was Fagan retired at the end of that second season as a direct result of the terrible tragedy of Heysel"

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/team/past_players/managers/fagan/

I'm going to stop at four, there are a number of contenders for 5th including Benitez, but if you tot up the above four then you'll realise there ain't much left to sort from and some worthy contenders as well as judging say a European Cup against two league titles. Watson, Ashworth and McQueen make up most of the rest of our league titles, Rafa completes the European Cups and adds an FA Cup, and Souness, Evans and Houllier contributed FA Cups, League Cups and a UEFA Cup.

Paisley/Shankly/Fagan/Dalglish
League Titles : 13
League Runners-Up : 8*
European Cups : 4
UEFA Cups : 2

FA Cups : 4
League Cups : 4

Everyone Else
League Titles : 5 (all pre-1948)
League Runners-Up : 4*
European Cups : 1 (Benitez)
UEFA Cups : 1 (Houllier)

FA Cups : 3 (Souness, Houllier & Benitez)
League Cups : 3 (Evans, Houllier x2)

*Dalglish left when we were top, Souness saw out the season.

by **GYBS** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:00 pm

Cant complain at those rankings mate spot on with Sir Bob then Shanks and then Kenny finally Joe .

The question is who comes after Joe ? Rafa or GH ?

by **Owzat** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:05 pm

GYBS wrote:Cant complain at those rankings mate spot on with Sir Bob then Shanks and then Kenny finally Joe .

The question is who comes after Joe ? Rafa or GH ?

Not necessarily just those two in contention, others won league titles if not domestic cups - and there was no European competition back then. Pretty difficult, probably best not to continue.

by **GYBS** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:15 pm

think it would be more interesting to continue mate .

Liveprool had a number of managers before shanks that won the title back then - Watson won a couple then Ashworth and Kay won a title then nothing for 20 odd years (including second world war ) until Shanks arrived . Guess its hard to judge the sort of league it was back then . For me Rafa would come just above GH because of the CL win and gaining players like Torres etc . GH then for his FA cup,Uefa And Two Carling cups . Then Evans and Souness equal . I guess the placings off Rafa and GH would be debated for years with opinions differing .

by **bigmick** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:45 pm

GYBS wrote:Cant complain at those rankings mate spot on with Sir Bob then Shanks and then Kenny finally Joe .

The question is who comes after Joe ? Rafa or GH ?

It's a good question and I guess it depends what you base it on. If it's on trophies, then Houllier wins it of course. That was one thing with Houllier, he could win the old Cups.

If it's on who's got the better team, it's Rafa. This current team would just about beat the best one which Houllier put togehter I think. However, it's worth remembering that wasn't the one which he ultimately left behind. Houllier was given at least one year too long, and the team had declined by the time he departed.

If it's on who made the best fist of the league, then Houllier wins I think . He was second one year (admittedly Phil Thomson took charge while he was in hospital) and we contested it till right at the end, finishing second and seven points behind Arsenal, ahead of the Mancs and Chelsea. Rafa may better that this season (the deficit) but it'll take some doing.

If it's on transfer prowess, I think it's Rafa wins despite this Summer. Obviously he's spent much more money that Houllier, and like all managers there have been blunders, but his couple of standout buys win him this one for me.

If it's on who plays the better football, close but once again I think Rafa shades it. In truth neither of them play fluent, attacking, inspirational football but at times Houlliers brand was turgid on the eye.

So all in all, in a very close contest I give it to Rafa 3-2.

by **GYBS** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:53 pm

Plus on overall win percentage (if we are using stats) then Rafa wins that one as well .

by **bigmick** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:05 pm

GYBS wrote:Plus on overall win percentage (if we are using stats) then Rafa wins that one as well .

I don't and didn't include that, because it's irrelevent in my view. Before you know where you are, your including goal difference, number of goals per game, Premiership points per game on average and all that stuff.

No, I think the measures I have used are fair enough and under those, Rafa gets home by the virute of a 3-2 scoreline.

Of course, ardent Houllier fans may argue that in actual fact, trophies won is much more important than "style of play". They are probably rioght in that, but Rafa fans will point to "importance of trophy" and Rafa did win old big ears, albeit with a team which included 9 of Houlliers players.

Equally, Rafa fans might say that I'm harsh giving the "make a fist of the league" section to Houllier, but I would say that until Rafa betters that effort that's the way it has to be. He has an oportunity still to do so this season, and then if he doesn't, in year six and year seven of his tenure he'll get the chance to try again. He may even get a year eight and a year nine if he can win a trophy or two and should he need extra time.

It's tough tittie for Houllier supporters though mate, it's close I'll give them that but Rafa just gets it for me.

by **Big Niall** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:33 pm

i would put roy evans ahead of both.

He took over a team and a club lower than either houllier or rafa ever had to manage. they played the best football in england, were thrilling to watch, were never out of the top four spots, were the last team to really challenge for the title into april, and left behind the 2nd or 3rd best team in the country.

Nobody can deny that he left behind a better team than he took over which is what a very good(but not great) manager does. Putting houllier above him because he won some cups is a joke, he played puke football, missed out on the top four spots a couple of times and a club sliding.

by **Big Niall** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:37 pm

GYBS wrote:think it would be more interesting to continue mate .

Liveprool had a number of managers before shanks that won the title back then - Watson won a couple then Ashworth and Kay won a title then nothing for 20 odd years (including second world war ) until Shanks arrived . Guess its hard to judge the sort of league it was back then . For me Rafa would come just above GH because of the CL win and gaining players like Torres etc . GH then for his FA cup,Uefa And Two Carling cups . Then Evans and Souness equal . I guess the placings off Rafa and GH would be debated for years with opinions differing .

jesus christ.

you have evans and souness level. are you :censored:

mad. how the :censored:

can you think that. souness had the team finishing mid table.

usually i respect differing opinions but is just taking the :censored:

by **bigmick** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:38 pm

So Roy Evans over Rafa then? Had we not won the Champions League four seasons ago I might agree with you Niall, but given that we did mate, I think Rafa takes it just over the two of them.

by **Big Niall** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:41 pm

i don't see the argument - Paisley is obviously number 1, hands down. probably best manager in britain ever.

shankley is defo number 2 as he built such a great club.

I don't know how to rate Fagan. took over a great team, didn't do much too significant, won a lot and left. If chelsea had won the league and that c*nt terry hadn't slipped taking a penalty to win the european cup, and then left, I'd have fagan and avram grant the same. just steadied the ship.

by **GYBS** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:02 pm

Big Niall wrote:
GYBS wrote:think it would be more interesting to continue mate .

Liveprool had a number of managers before shanks that won the title back then - Watson won a couple then Ashworth and Kay won a title then nothing for 20 odd years (including second world war ) until Shanks arrived . Guess its hard to judge the sort of league it was back then . For me Rafa would come just above GH because of the CL win and gaining players like Torres etc . GH then for his FA cup,Uefa And Two Carling cups . Then Evans and Souness equal . I guess the placings off Rafa and GH would be debated for years with opinions differing .

jesus christ.

you have evans and souness level. are you mad. how the can you think that. souness had the team finishing mid table.

usually i respect differing opinions but is just taking the

In my eyes they both didnt improve the team in any way and one won the fa cup where as the other won the league cup . as harsh as it may seem they both go down as poor managers for us in the overall look of things .

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:10 pm

I think the harshest thing you can say about Evans is he didn't win enough with the team had. He got them playing great football, challenging for the league but never quite got the extra required to actually win the league.

Top bloke, who I never once heard say anything disrepectful about Liverpool, Houllier or the players that let him down.

I agree with Niall, to put him in the same category as Souness is a joke imo.

by **GYBS** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:11 pm

Im just rating them as managers nothing to do with them as people mate - yeah would agree that evans was a ncie guy and all that but as a manager ? sorry but nowhere near good enough .

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