Liverpool FC Forum

by **metalhead** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:31 am

I've been having alot of thoughts about our center backs during this season, and I think we are weak in that department. I'm sure stu or any other member brougth up this notion about being weak in that area, and I have to say we look weaker and conceding silly goals from set pieces and defencive errors. I don't think zonal marking is a huge issue to our problem in defence, as in the zonal marking thread before many explained that the zonal system was the best and provided in depth analysis on it, which was good. The main point is here, that 3 years ago we had one of the best and meanest defence in the league, using this system, why? because we had a fantastic back four of Riise (on form) Carragher Hyppia and Finann. Carragher and Hyppia got the best out of each other on the field, one being the sweeper type (carra) the other being the arielly dominant (Hyppia), which helped alot in defending set pieces, because we had Hyppia who won first headers and just dominated in the air. Plus Hyppia was at his prime and was a top player.

Now 3 years forward, we are having problems winning first headers, challenging big tall strikers and defending set pieces. Its because our current center backs (bar Hyppia) are vulnrable in the air and are not considered to be top players IMO.

Let me start with Carragher, as much as I love this man, he gave it all and will always do his utmost best for the team, he, on the other hand is ageing, weaking some of his few abilities he had 3 years ago, he isn't the same type of player this season like he was in 2005/2006. Still, he plays with his Heart and commits 100% on the field. He does compliment well with very good players around him, but a player like Dossenna in the same backfour will never get the best out of him.

Agger, on the ground he is fantastic, he has really good distribution of the ball and defencively sound makes him a really good footballer. However he still has his limitations, he is poor in the air, doesn't win first headers and gets caught ball watching a couple of times. Drogba gave him a beating at stamford bridge.

Skrtel, not convinced about him, looks like a solid player, mean, aggressive and top tackle. Thats about it. His concentration, decision making is average, actually his concentration is poor, he always get caught ball watching and makes too many mistakes in games. He would be a great backup because I prefer Carragher and Agger over him. It also shows how weak our center backs are if we have carragher and agger pairing.

Hyppia, top player, LFC legend, he has been a rock for us this season when he player, but I do fear this is his last season with us

Finally, with Agger's future being uncertain, I think one of our main priority next season is to buy a top quality center back, who has about everything and compliments a player like Carragher, Skrtel and Agger.

Who would fit the bill? any suggestions?

by **GYBS** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:13 am

Agger should be playing alongside Carra imo - rate him a lot higher than skittles . People always mention that one game in the CL when he didnt have the best game against Drogba but in the return leg at Anfield Drogba didnt get a sniff from him . Hope whatever is going on with him gets sorted soon and dont want to see him leaving to another team .

by **Sir Roger** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:17 am

We offer no aerial threat whatsoever to be fair. If sammis not on the pitch we may as well forget about scoring from corners.
And as for defending from set pieces. Need I say more?
This is definitely something that Rafa doesnt seem to think is important

by **Greavesie** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:12 am

I like Agger and really rate him, if we can keep the three we have I think we're ok for CBs to be honest, there's areas in the team in need of more attention than there. Agger contributes with goals and played really well before he got injured. Reckon he just needs a run in the team and he'll be back to his best

by **bigmick** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:20 am

In fairness a couple of posters alluded to this aerial weakness a while ago (not me, it was mainloy Stu as I recall) and it does appear as time has gone on that there may be something in it. Like you MH I don't think it's the system, although I know that many are starting to think that perhaps it is. Equally i don't think it's down to the coaching, as I think we have one of the best defensive coaches in the World.

I've said a few times that Skrytel makes me nervous with his ball watching, but that mainly tends to come to the fore from open play rather than set-pieces. The only obvious goal which I can remember him costing us was the Cahill one at Anfield. If you look at the other top teams, the Mancs and Chelsea they both would back themselves to defend set-pieces all day long, whereas we do look a bit shakey these days. Equally, as has already been mentioned we don't really look like getting many bonus goals from headed corners and the like.

I don't know what the answer is really. Although we could probably do with somebody else, we have far more pressing needs elsewhere. I get to see very little football from England these days, soi it's hard for me to say. I praised a goalie up on his first half performance the other day then he made a mother of all feck ups in the second half. Half the time, I'm going on the shortest of clips. My suspicion though is that if we need a centre half we are going to have to go overseas. The dangers of such a move though are demonstrated by the likes of that Coloochini at the Barcodes. We apparently trailed him for a while, but thank God we didn't part with any hard earned for him as he looks distinctly average.

My guess is we're probably going to just have to work harder with Skyrtel and try and make him a bit more imposing in the air. It may develop for him who knows.

And I just remembered, I liked the centre half for Fulham who had the scandinavean name, Halvekdtsrgand or whatever the feck it is. He may actually be rubbish for all I know, but he looked good in the game against us. Wins everything in the air too, as he would being as tall as he is.

by **GYBS** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:25 am

Greavesie wrote:I like Agger and really rate him, if we can keep the three we have I think we're ok for CBs to be honest, there's areas in the team in need of more attention than there. Agger contributes with goals and played really well before he got injured. Reckon he just needs a run in the team and he'll be back to his best

Another striker and someone with a bit more creativity is far more urgent than cbs . If the agger situation gets sorted then we will have three great cbs with two of them young and still got time to develop and expect sami will be around next season to help them develop . Also there is a few youngsters that show promise - kelly and san jose i think are two of them .

by **metalhead** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:32 am

Greavsie, I do think its a very important area we need to strengthen at come this summer, as well as our attack. With Agger 70% leaving, Carragher Ageing and Hyppia on his way, we only have Skrtel, who I really don't rate, and as Mick said it makes you nervous with his poor concentration and ball watching, makes the center back position one of the most important areas we need to strengthen. We have conceeded really silly goals this season, mostly in set pieces because we are very vulnrable aerially when we have Carra and Agger together.

My guess is we're probably going to just have to work harder with Skyrtel and try and make him a bit more imposing in the air. It may develop for him who knows.

I doubt that mate, I do think he is a good defender, but he isn't a top one, would be a really good backup for a top 4 side.

Its true that we must head oversees to find one, baring that we are interested in Raul Albiol of Valencia, he looks really good as well, though I'm not sure how well he is, watched him once with Valencia thats about it and impressed.

by **GYBS** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:39 am

metalhead wrote:Greavsie, I do think its a very important area we need to strengthen at come this summer, as well as our attack. With Agger 70% leaving, Carragher Ageing and Hyppia on his way, we only have Skrtel, who I really don't rate, and as Mick said it makes you nervous with his poor concentration and ball watching, makes the center back position one of the most important areas we need to strengthen. We have conceeded really silly goals this season, mostly in set pieces because we are very vulnrable aerially when we have Carra and Agger together.

My guess is we're probably going to just have to work harder with Skyrtel and try and make him a bit more imposing in the air. It may develop for him who knows.

I doubt that mate, I do think he is a good defender, but he isn't a top one, would be a really good backup for a top 4 side.

Its true that we must head oversees to find one, baring that we are interested in Raul Albiol of Valencia, he looks really good as well, though I'm not sure how well he is, watched him once with Valencia thats about it and impressed.

I think if agger does go - and would be a massive loss - bigger than keane going etc there we would have to get top dollar for him - if people like jar jar binks are going for 30 mil and carvahlo and terry rated at 20 mil then we have to get 15 mil plus for agger and then look at who is about at that price . Agree with your sentiments about skittles - think he is a decent pure defender but dont think he compliments carra well but think he would work alongside agger thou . We reallt cant afford to loose Agger and if we do i would be very gutted about loosing a player of such high quality.

Raul Abidol looked pretty decent player for spain as well - think he started of as DM so has some ball playing ability as well .

by **Owzat** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:42 am

I've not been as impressed with Skrtel as some have been on here, I think Agger and Sami compliment Carra better. I think we rather lack commanding defensive/aerial presences in the box, Skrtel has been a weak link recently, the full-backs aren't the most convincing defending set-pieces and aside from Kuyt and maybe Gerrard, the rest of the team are not convincing defending set-pieces. Maybe zonal is getting more stick than it deserves, maybe the same players would be equally poor defensively if we went man2man.

How many of the team are that strong heading the ball? Why we pose little threat from corners perhaps. So maybe it's not just the CBs, but the team overall. Makes it even more important we don't concede silly set-pieces and when we do clear, try not to just hoof upfield as we do too often with only one up front and Kuyt back defending.

by **LegBarnes** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:42 am

we need to replace big sami alot of people say he is ok player not great bla bla for me he is a tower in defence and has had big part in many sucessful seasons as liverpool player.

We need a big tall defender who likes to get stuck in , in the air unlike a agger skrtel or carra.

We have to many of the same type of defender atm we dare I say it need to sell up one of them and bring in someone who enjoys that type of play just like sami.

by **Sabre** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:43 am

Metalhead, interesting thread.

However, a question.

Your thread title talks about centre backs. But in your topic starter you mention the whole picture, the back four. I wouldn't focus that much the problems we had this season with the quality of our CB, in fact, I think our future is well secured as long as Agger has his contract renewed.

It's true that the new CB aren't as strong as Hyypia on the air, but you know what, the same thing could be said about Cannavaro or any other CB you choose.

For me the CB are not a concern. The back four though, hasn't worked as well as we're used to.

Reasons? now sit down and be ready for the unexpected

: If there's a line in which I don't like rotation is the back four. And first because we were testing or new buy Dossena, and later because of injuries, we've been changing of back four too often.

So, in a nutshell, I agree we haven't been as good in the back four, but I'm not concerned about our CB or our future with Skrtel and Agger. I wouldn't buy new CB. I'd strenghten other positions (the usual suspects)

Also, I think that the guilt of mistakes in defending set pieces must be shared in the team (I remember for instance Alonso getting it wrong twice this season and costed us two goals).

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:44 am

agger doesnt seem to be fancied anymore by 'he who can't be mentioned', even when fit he is overlooked for skittles and carra, when a change is needed it tends to be sami that comes in. I feel the whole keane scenario over again with agger, he will be gone at the end of the season

by **metalhead** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:46 am

I stated the back four as a general introduction Sabre

Yes, its true about Canavarro, but he has Pepe alongside him who is a top defender, also a big bloke.

by **LegBarnes** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:48 am

Sabre wrote:Metalhead, interesting thread.

However, a question.

Your thread title talks about centre backs. But in your topic starter you mention the whole picture, the back four. I wouldn't focus that much the problems we had this season with the quality of our CB, in fact, I think our future is well secured as long as Agger has his contract renewed.

It's true that the new CB aren't as strong as Hyypia on the air, but you know what, the same thing could be said about Cannavaro or any other CB you choose.

For me the CB are not a concern. The back four though, hasn't worked as well as we're used to.

Reasons? now sit down and be ready for the unexpected : If there's a line in which I don't like rotation is the back four. And first because we were testing or new buy Dossena, and later because of injuries, we've been changing of back four too often.

So, in a nutshell, I agree we haven't been as good in the back four, but I'm not concerned about our CB or our future with Skrtel and Agger.

Also, I think that the guilt of mistakes in defending set pieces must be shared in the team (I remember for instance Alonso getting it wrong twice this season and costed us two goals).

Good point of course if a team has better FBacks then of course you need to deal with less crosses.

But then even then you still have to deal with long throws , corners whiped in free kicks.

More so if teams know this is your weaker area.

I meen we play in prem ffs this is a great league with alot of good managers who know how to watch teams and spot weaknesses , this has been our downfall this season in many games out lack of CBs who can win ball in air.

I even feel in corners just to have a CM who is good in air might help ?

On that note does rafa miss crouch in defensive play nowa days ? cos I remeber when he played it was never a problem.

Any ways getting off track I feel we need to lose either skrtel or agger and buy a big tall power CB to play along side carra for next season.

by **bigmick** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:51 am

Also I think it's worth pointing out that one of the differences between football in england as opposed to the rest of Europe, is the brute force of teams in the way they attack balls aerially into the box. I've no doubt at all that if Cahill played on the continent, every time he contested a header it would be a foul to the opposition. Heskey and Crouch both have the same problem when playing for England, Ferguson had it for the "ifithadnerbeenfer" goal at Villareal, and such a free kick given against Shearer probably cost us the World Cup a while back.

I'll probably be on my own here, but I think Cannavaro would struggle in the Premiership from set pieces. You need a more rugged approach, and sheer size. Hyppia, John Terry, Vidic and the like are they types you need.

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