Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:35 am

He's a player I've seen play about four times, and in a footballing sense fell in love with. Having heard the likes of Scott banging on about him for so long, I was expecting something special when he eventually played in the Euro's, and I wasn't disappointed. He reminds me so much of Peter Beardsley, and when he's got the ball on the half turn or better still facing up, he's got a lovely little bit of vision, a shoulder drop or an perceptive little pass in him.

For me he's one of those players who "feels" the pulse of the game, who can ghost into little pockets and inject a little quick quick in between the second and third beats of the slow, slow, slow.

So what's the point of the thread (you might well ask

) and what the feck has Morientes got to do with the price of natural yoghurt? Well I watched the 90 minute replay of the WBA Arsenal game (life really is one social whirl over here) mainly because I wanted to see how he got on.

He reminded me a bit of Nando (no not that one the other one, the one who was useless in a red shirt). He couldn't seem to find the pocket to get into, couldn't seem to find his space, and was reduced to trying to play off the shoulder. Sure there were little glimpses, flashes of something out of the ordinary coming through the fog, but not that glow, not that brilliant shimmering light with which I've seen him illuminate proceedings before.

So why was that? Well there's probably a fitness issue as like the rest of Russia he's no doubt been ice skating and fishing through little holes in the ice for the last couple of months. Secondly, I don't think as yet Arsenal have worked out where he is, how he plays. Thirdly, I think the absense of Fabregas is huge for them. He's the bloke who gets beyond the play and glues it all together, I could see him and Arshavin almost swapping places for most of the match.

I said before Arsenal signed him that I thought he would be an excellent signing and for the money was cheap. He is precisely the sort of player who IMHO we should be looking at, but invariably don't. On the evidence of the West Brom game though, it's a good job because he didn't influence the proceedings much at all.

My guess is though that he will come good, and they'll find a way to make him more like a Peter Beardsley than a Fernando Morientes. Whatever hapopens, I'm glad he's playing in the Premiership, I just would like it to have been with us.

by **GYBS** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:41 am

I thought arshavin did well in a couple of games in the uefa for zenit and for russia in the Euros but prob ran out of steam in the end - dont think he will do much this season and tbh mick i cant see him being that much of a success for Arsenal - thats not because of him and his talent but thats because he has gone to arsenal . They still lack the steel to compliment the arshavins and nasris etc so those players will have to win the ball while also doing their own natural game . I think he would of been perfect for us due to us already having the ball winners enabling him to play to his natural game . I may of course be proved wrong but i cant see him doing well

by **bigmick** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:54 am

GYBS wrote:I thought arshavin did well in a couple of games in the uefa for zenit and for russia in the Euros but prob ran out of steam in the end - dont think he will do much this season and tbh mick i cant see him being that much of a success for Arsenal - thats not because of him and his talent but thats because he has gone to arsenal . They still lack the steel to compliment the arshavins and nasris etc so those players will have to win the ball while also doing their own natural game . I think he would of been perfect for us due to us already having the ball winners enabling him to play to his natural game . I may of course be proved wrong but i cant see him doing well

Might as well broaden it out a bit to include Arsenal, and I can't help thinking that the celebrations of their demise are a bit premature mate, not from you but in general.

They led the Premiership for a long time last season (they made a much better fist of it in truth than we have this) and then lost a couple of first teamers in the Summer. They've then had pretty horrific injuries, and are now struggling to get intot he top four. My guess is though that they will, and that there won't be that much between them and us come the end of the season (around 5-6 points I think). Now they finished above us last season, and I think we'll do very well to finsih in front of them next season as long as Fabregas/Adebayor/Van Persie don't feck off. They've got by all accounts an unbeleiveable bunch of youngsters, and a fantastic manager (no digs at anyone here, just telling it exactly like it is based on records).

They ain't done yet I'm sure of it, despite spending a net of 4 million a year (once again I think) during Rafa's time as manager.

by **aCe'** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:35 pm

bigmick wrote:
GYBS wrote:I thought arshavin did well in a couple of games in the uefa for zenit and for russia in the Euros but prob ran out of steam in the end - dont think he will do much this season and tbh mick i cant see him being that much of a success for Arsenal - thats not because of him and his talent but thats because he has gone to arsenal . They still lack the steel to compliment the arshavins and nasris etc so those players will have to win the ball while also doing their own natural game . I think he would of been perfect for us due to us already having the ball winners enabling him to play to his natural game . I may of course be proved wrong but i cant see him doing well

Might as well broaden it out a bit to include Arsenal, and I can't help thinking that the celebrations of their demise are a bit premature mate, not from you but in general.

They led the Premiership for a long time last season (they made a much better fist of it in truth than we have this) and then lost a couple of first teamers in the Summer. They've then had pretty horrific injuries, and are now struggling to get intot he top four. My guess is though that they will, and that there won't be that much between them and us come the end of the season (around 5-6 points I think). Now they finished above us last season, and I think we'll do very well to finsih in front of them next season as long as Fabregas/Adebayor/Van Persie don't feck off. They've got by all accounts an unbeleiveable bunch of youngsters, and a fantastic manager (no digs at anyone here, just telling it exactly like it is based on records).

They ain't done yet I'm sure of it, despite spending a net of 4 million a year (once again I think) during Rafa's time as manager.

Funny we'd be the ones saying that Arsenal have a sht squad and are a sht team and all that... looking at their squad and comparing it to ours... there isnt much between the 2 sides..

Reina

Sagna Carra Gallas Clichy

Arshavin Gerrard Fabregas Nasri

Torres RVP

Anyone thinks different ? thats 7arsenal, 4liverpool.... only a matter of time before they regain their form and its us who are fighting it out with the rest for 4th spot...

On Arshavin.... Im not sure how their side are going to set up when Fabregas, Nasri, Arshavin, Walcott, Rosicky, Denilson, Adebayor, RVP and the others are all fit and ready...

ideally, they would be dropping one of their forwards and going with a midfield of 5 but its hard to see Adebayor or RVP content with a spot on the bench...

having said all that, if they cant manage to get 4th spot from Villa, i can see a few of their players wanting to leave... i say we atleast try to get some of them if that happens... wouldnt mind Fabregas, Walcott, Rosicky, Adebayor or RVP...not at all...

by **tubby** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:25 pm

Yeah everyone is forgetting they have had some horrendous injuries this season but they are back strong now especially with Eduardo regaining fitness.

by **Sabre** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:56 pm

It's an interesting thread. I think it's a good post, I want to add something so that it's debated.

I agree that much of those non inmediate successes are related to physical and rythm of the game issues.

And I want to add, that, when it comes to quality players, the "it's too early" factor has to be considered.

The Spanish league is a league in which the ball is moved fast despite being a lot of interruptions (more set pieces). It requires an adaptation too. We have the examples of players like Van Der Vaart or Snejder, players we know they're quality, players that struggled the first season. Van der Vaart, a player I loved in the Euro, is having troubles to end a single game 90 minutes!! like Riera, but actually looking very tired at the end!

Aguero, who today had a day off, needed a year of adaptation. Henry too. Huntelaar hasn't made a goal in a lot of matches.

In England we could talk about Arshavin, Ronaldo's first season, Mascherano's first season believe it or not Reina had his doubters too the first year in newkit.

My point is simple, there's a difference between the top and the other leagues in Europe. It's unrealistic to expect inmediate successes like in the case of Torres, or Alonso, that only happens rarely, and in Football Manager computer games.

The most normal thing is that many quality players coming from a different rythm of the game will struggle the first season. But normally, if given time, quality will adapt.

There will exist cases of incompatibility of game like in Moriente's case, there may exist cases like Shevshenko in which the players isn't bothered to adapt at that point of his career, but it's my opinion that after a natural interval of adaptation, quality players will be showing their quality everywhere.

The premiership is the strongest league and is attracting a lot of quality players, but it's not an "impossible league" to adapt, after all if it has that many foreigners it's because it's not that difficult to adapt after all. But often, you need to give time.

Yes, you can't offer time always, sometimes someone won't be good enough, but you can't say after a bad first season this player won't make it here, IMHO.

by **bigmick** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:39 pm

Sabre wrote:It's an interesting thread. I think it's a good post,

Glad you like it Sabes. I started it a week ago, just in the middle of the period when there were no football posts anymore :;):

. Not many people replied though, even those who apparently like nothing more than to talk about football didn't seem to bother with it.

Anyway, my point which I didn't make terribly well is not that Arshavin is or isn't a good player (he is) but more that they are going to have to find a way to get him into the game. If they play him up top as they did in the game I watched, he'll disappear Morientes style because like the Spaniard, he isn't quick nor strong enough to prosper there.

What they are going to need to do is get him into a Bergkamp type role, then we'll see the quality of the player. Interestingly, if everyone is fit for them, with Adebayor and Van Persie up top, I can't really see how he fits, particularly with the excellent Fabregas bombing in from midfield. Up top though, there is little point in him playing in England IMHO as he'll get lost.

The kind of club he'd need to play in would probably operate with a lone, mobile, top class striker. He'd be asked to provide that creative spark, to drift around a bit and to be aware of a midfielder who is hopefully bombing in from behind. Can you think of any :eyebrow

.

Anyways, glad you liked the football post. Didn't even mention rafa or Mourinho once, amazing really.

by **Sabre** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:02 am

Yeh, I hadn't read it as most of this sections and others!

About your point, it's interesting too, but I have nothing to discuss about it because I know next to nothing about what the context of Arsenal is this season, I've only see them against us.

The kind of club he'd need to play in would probably operate with a lone, mobile, top class striker. He'd be asked to provide that creative spark, to drift around a bit and to be aware of a midfielder who is hopefully bombing in from behind. Can you think of any

In Spain quite, a few, in England I only know Liverpool to have an opinion.

And in Liverpool, No, not really. I know there's a school of thought in newkit that are believers of the "We need a creative second striker" notion, and I know it has many adepts, and it's been operating for some time, but I'm not one of the adepts, and I think I'm alone or in a minority in this.

Not that it couldn't work, nor that I don't like that display, but quite simply that's not an area of the team I'd like to fiddle, among other things, because Arshavin wouldn't be a better partner of Torres than Gerrard the world class player, who had shown how deadly they could be. I think that partnership needs lack of rotation and become one of the legendary ones that will be remembered by your kids when they're my age.

Similarly, Gerrard-Alonso are great CM, and you could put Arshavin behind Torres, but then what, you have Mascherano in the bench? That's a luxury, when you have the right wing and striker position unaddressed, you have debt, and limited resources.

Yesterday game should be an eye opener for those who think Mascherano-Alonso partnership is negative by default. Anyone should acknowledge that's a prejudice. If you have your wings activated, like yesterday, when you press well, like yesterday, and with simply with Torres at 80% and a great Gerrard, you can make enough chances to threaten Real Madrid with an 8-0. Not very negative, no.

So no place for Russian experiments in Liverpool in my book, just fix the right wing, activate both wings, and have somebody good enough for when Torres is not available.

P.S. That is, of course I'd preffer to have Arshavin rather than Lucas for those games in which quality in the last third pitch is important. But we have quality players in the positions involved, and we really need to activate the wings, when Riera is tired or injured or Kuyt plays, we have not much of a wing against deep teams.

by **bigmick** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:36 am

Fair enough, and it's hard to argue with your thesis on Torres and Gerrard. Coming back to Arshavin at Arsenal though, they are going to have to find a place for him to play. By that I don't mean they just have to select him, they have to find an actual space on the pitch for him to operate in. It is something we singularly failed to do with Morientes, although I'm unconvinced he was good enough anyway. Had we though for istance paired Morientes with Cisse, and got the Frenchman playing to his potential, it's possible that as teams dropped deeper to counter Cisse's pace Morientes could have spun in front and made himself much easier to hit from distance. This also would have made the ball dropped into him a possibility and so negated his lack of bodystrength.

Now Arshavin is fairly obviously an "in the hole" player, but I don't think it's quite as simple as him then dropping a bit deeper. To play "in the hole" there has to be a hole for you to drop into, and at the moent for them there isn't for Arsenal. An "in the hole" player would have difficulty playing against us for instance, because the way we naturally defend there isn't one. Anybody who tried it without the rest of the team helping would find the only hole available was Masherano's pocket.

What Arsenal were previously very good at with Bergkamp who was an absolutely superb player IMHO, was making the hole for him. Henri (who he ostensibly played up top with) would drift out left, Ljunnberg and Pires would drift in, along with the Brazillian left footed midfielder who's name always escapes me, and Bergkamp could sly away into the holes they'd created and pull the strings. Zola did it for Chelsea too. For Man Utd, Rooney kind of does it as well, but he picks his spots carefully, and they move the ball and opposition defenders around very well to get it into him.

Gerrard doesn't really do it for us, but he's not that kind of player. There's also that thing with Gerrard where he has the after buner pace and power which dissuades anyone from getting too tight. You're far better off with Gerrard almost letting him get it but making sure you stay between him and the goal so he can't bust the net from 30 yards. Better to do that than risking him bursting past you and scoring.

Arshavin hasn't got that in his locker though. Subtlety is his watchword, he's more the cat burglar than the ram raider of a Gerrard or a Rooney, and to be effective players like him need a plan, usually a cunning one. I'm not 100% sure that Arsenal will have the time to work one out. This season they are going to be going head to head with Villa for the Champions League slot, so they haven't got the luxury of a prolongued dress rehersal for next season. When that comes around, if van Persie (who I'd like at Liverpool) or Adebayor stay, along with Fabregas, i can't see him getting a game. He may then look a bit like a panic buy, and may even be stealable at a cheap price. I think then he may be a shout for us.

by **Sabre** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:51 am

Now Arshavin is fairly obviously an "in the hole" player, but I don't think it's quite as simple as him then dropping a bit deeper. To play "in the hole" there has to be a hole for you to drop into, and at the moent for them there isn't. An "in the hole" player would have difficult playing against us for instance, because the way we naturally defend there isn't one. Anybody who tried it without the rest of the team helping would find the only hole available was Masherano's pocket.

True, and to make things worse, even if you have a pocket you often need a good pass to activate that player. That's something Alonso can do, but if you do a good pressing to a guy like lass, the consequence will be that the Snejders, the Gutis, the Arshavins, the Riquelmes do not get a sniff against teams like Liverpool. When you sum up what you describe there, with an aggressive pressing against a not good enough holding midfielder, the result is victories at Nou Camp and Bernabeu. Both battles were won in the middle, and yesterday Mascherano, Gerrard and Torres got a 10/10 from me, and ALonso a 9.

On the Bergkamp comment, quite simply any fan that doesn't download videos of those guys for the same of enjoying football, really need start downloading or buying. Bergkamp was elegant, the only player as elegant I've known is another dutch, Kluivert. But Bergkamp was elegant AND deadly finnisher, effective. A top top striker, one of the greatest of his decade.

by **stmichael** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:19 pm

Fantastic player imo. His goal at the weekend was sublime.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:36 pm

Arshavin came to life on Saturday Mick, played some wonderful passes scored an incredible goal and had another good shot that the goalkeeper could only parry and Arsenal scored. Bendtner wanted shooting btw for some of his misses. One pass Arshavin made to Bendtner was world class, the finish from Bendtner was not.

I think we will regret missing out on him, he looks like the player that most seemed to think Robbie Keane could have been. My only question is has he the physical and mental strength, he certainly has the skill and the brains.

Just found this in the Times Mick :-

Arsene Wenger reads only two newspapers regularly - one English and one French - but the Arsenal manager knew what everyone was saying before Christmas. Wenger had money to spend in the January transfer window and if he wanted Arsenal to win a trophy for the first time in four years he had to buy a central defender and a defensive midfield player.

Wenger listened to what the armchair generals had to say and decided to spend £12 million on one of the most creative attacking players in the world. What made his signing of Andrey Arshavin, one of the stars of Euro 2008, even sweeter was that Arsenal had to pay only half the price that Zenit St Petersburg were quoting for the Russia playmaker last summer.

Arshavin played for just over an hour on his Arsenal debut last month but 63 minutes was all that was required for him to confirm that he could be being mentioned in the same breath as players such as Thierry Henry and Dennis Bergkamp in the near future.

Wenger described him as player who could make things happen in the final third of the pitch and even though his debut ended in a dull goalless draw with Sunderland, his touch, vision, close control and his ability to make space for himself and shoot from any angle impressed Emirates Stadium regulars and his manager. "He will improve as he gets fitter," Wenger said. "Give him time."

On Saturday, Arsenal beat Blackburn Rovers 4-0 at home and Arshavin was the man of the match. The 28-year-old Russian scored an exquisite second-half goal and forced Andre Ooijer, the Blackburn defender, to give Arsenal the lead after only two minutes. “He can create something that you don’t expect,” Wenger said. “We are very young and he has experience of winning trophies.”

Arshavin was close to joining Tottenham Hotspur last summer and he has had private English lessons for the past three years as he pursued his dream of leaving Russia and playing in England or Spain. He scored his first Arsenal goal, against Blackburn, two days after his wife, Yulia, arrived in London. “Maybe she can give me power,” Arshavin said. “It’s a new type of football but I will try to get used to it as quickly as possibly.”

by **bigmick** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:55 pm

Yeah I'll be scouring the SKY over here S@int to see if they replay the Arsenal game. As I said in my posts, he's a player who I think would have been ideal for playting in behind Torres, although as Sabes points out Gerrard is quite good at that too. I still can't get away from the idea that we need someone who can play in EITHER Gerrard or Torres's slot, in order to give him enough game time. Van Persie would be the one for me, but I must say on the few occasions I've seen Ashavin I've really liked him (apart from that ohter Arsenal game funnily enough).

by **GYBS** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:34 pm

Yep on sat it showed how well arshavin could of done for us - but still interested to see how he fairs throughout the whole season and when the donkeys are kicking lumps out of him on a cold winter afternoon . FFS it was roasting on sat and he was wearing gloves ? thought he was russian

by **Effes** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:55 am

He's perfect for Kuyt's position, can play in Riera's too.

Has experience of playing in thos positions in a 4-2-3-1.

We've missed a trick here IMO.

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