Liverpool FC Forum

by **Balli_Red** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:42 pm

I know these last few months have been bitterly disapointing after all the euphoria I personally thought that this maybe our time but in hindsight I think we all knew are squad is just not good enough and to be in this position at this time of the season is still an improvement. In saying that though since Rafa has come to the club and this being his fifth season have we improved a dramatic amount Im not sure I still dont feel he has improved us a lot over these five seasons. I think being 2nd and a champions league triumph is still the majority of fans expectations at the start of the season. We have improved against the big teams its just the smaller clubs we have not we really have a poor squad and rely too much on a few players

by **Effes** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:44 pm

puroresu wrote:
dawson99 wrote:Still, mabye I'm more heart than stat, but I could never want Mourinho here, it's the asme for some of us but others would love hmi here

(ps - inter 2-0 down, our very own JAR with one of the goals)

3-3 seems like another fantastic game on the continent this evening.

The Italians have latched on to the attacking football. It's not like it used to be in the 80's and early 90's with cagey 1-0 's.

I always thought Riise would make a great left winger, or left sided midfielder.

by **bigmick** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:03 am

bigmick wrote:Here you go Daws, next time people talk to me about "progression" I should show em this. This is what I call progression.

Progress: Liverpool v Aston Villa (since MON arrived)

2005/2006 P W D L PT
3 Liverpool 38 25 7 6 82
16 Aston Villa 38 10 12 16 42

2006/2007
3 Liverpool 38 20 8 10 68
11 Aston Villa 38 11 17 10 50

2007/2008
4 Liverpool 38 21 13 4 76
6 Aston Villa 38 16 12 10 60

2008/2009 (to date)
3 Liverpool 27 15 10 2 55
4 Aston Villa 26 15 6 5 51

Another definition of "progression" was Mourinho's first season at Chelsea, his first in English football. He took over an excellent team which had been built by Claudio Ranieri. Thye already had Lampard, Terry, Cech etc. He signed some big money players. Need time to settle in right? the manager needs time to get used to the league, players have to gel and all that stuff? Wrong. Ranieri's Chelsea the previous season amassed 79 points and finished 2nd. Mourinho's Chelsea the next season amassed 95 points and won the title with a record total. No five year plan there. "But he bought the title" and that may or may not be true. He did though gel those players instantly, and he did add 17 points, SEVENTEEN POINTS onto Ranieri's best effort at the first time of asking. That's progression for you.

Just to briefly revisit this, they truly are staggering stats if they're right and completey lay to waste any preconceptions people had about Martin O'Neill. They were forty points behind us, now they're neck and neck, in supposedly the season where we've really progressed. Unbelieveable.

I had a look at Everton as well. In the season before Houllier left, we were 21 points in front of them. We got 60 points, they got 39 and only just avoided relegation. In Rafa's first season, we slipped back by two points to 58, while they added 22 onto their total and got 4th, we finished 5th. I think that was a bit of a blip for them and us to be honest.

The following season we had a fantastic campaign. We finished on 82 points and they dropped back to 50. There was a 32 points gap at that point, and we had plenty of money to spend as well, unlike them. The next season they climbed back up to 58 points, while although we slipped back by 14 points on the previous season, we finished on 68 and had a 10 point gap. Remember that 10 point gap, because it becomes a recurring theme.

The next season, we signed Torres and managed to find 8 more points and finished on 76 points. They probably signed Julian Lescott or somebody, and managed to get to 65 points, still within 11 points of us despite our improvement.

So what of this season, after still more "progression" from us? Well, we're 55 points after 27 games. They are 44 points after 27 games. 11 points the gap, with us still to go to Old Trafford. My money would be on the gap once again being around 10 points or so. Looks like their progression is mirroring ours, which is no mean achievement given the disparity in budgets.

Neither club though can hold a candle to Villa in the progression stakes if those other stats are right. Looks like Martin O Neill has added himself to my list of potentials to offer up when people say "but there's nobody else".

by **Effes** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:10 am

bigmick wrote:
bigmick wrote:
That's progression for you.

Just to briefly revisit this, they truly are staggering stats if they're right and completey lay to waste any preconceptions people had about Martin O'Neill. They were forty points behind us, now they're neck and neck, in supposedly the season where we've really progressed. Unbelieveable.

I had a look at Everton as well. In the season before Houllier left, we were 21 points in front of them. We got 60 points, they got 39 and only just avoided relegation. In Rafa's first season, we slipped back by two points to 58, while they added 22 onto their total and got 4th, we finished 5th. I think that was a bit of a blip for them and us to be honest.

The following season we had a fantastic campaign. We finished on 82 points and they dropped back to 50. There was a 32 points gap at that point, and we had plenty of money to spend as well, unlike them. The next season they climbed back up to 58 points, while although we slipped back by 14 points on the previous season, we finished on 68 and had a 10 point gap. Remember that 10 point gap, because it becomes a recurring theme.

The next season, we signed Torres and managed to find 8 more points and finished on 76 points. They probably signed Julian Lescott or somebody, and managed to get to 65 points, still within 11 points of us despite our improvement.

So what of this season, after still more "progression" from us? Well, we're 55 points after 27 games. They are 44 points after 27 games. 11 points the gap, with us still to go to Old Trafford. My money would be on the gap once again being around 10 points or so. Looks like their progression is mirroring ours, which is no mean achievement given the disparity in budgets.

Neither club though can hold a candle to Villa in the progression stakes if those other stats are right. Looks like Martin O Neill has added himself to my list of potentials to offer up when people say "but there's nobody else".

Mick, this "Progression thing seems to pap on my Progression Thread, which squeezed the last drops of Pro-Rafa-ness out of me

I never "dared" say at the time - but when M O'Neill was kicking off over the Barry signing, loads were saying "Ha, and to think some people on here wanted him at Liverpool".

Hmmm...... :oops:

by **bigmick** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:14 am

I know, he doesn't want to sell his best player to us so he's a little w@nker. I remember it well Eff. Everywhere he's been he's been a success as well. His crime about Barry, hge put a valuation on his player and said if we weren't prepared to pay it we couldn't have him. Cheeky little c... who does he think he is? 18 million for Gareth Barry he's having a laugh right? We showed him, we paid 27 million for Keane and Dossena instead. That taught him a lesson anyway.

by **Effes** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:19 am

bigmick wrote:I know, he doesn't want to sell his best player to us so he's a little w@nker. I remember it well Eff. Everywhere he's been he's been a success as well. His crime about Barry, hge put a valuation on his player and said if we weren't prepared to pay it we couldn't have him. Cheeky little c... who does he think he is? 18 million for Gareth Barry he's having a laugh right? We showed him, we paid 27 million for Keane and Dossena instead. That taught him a lesson anyway.

It was quite embarrassing reading people talking like that.
Blinkered.

And if Rafa acted the same if Real Madrid came in for Gerrad, we wouldn't want that kind of "protection"?

by **puroresu** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:27 am

bigmick wrote:I know, he doesn't want to sell his best player to us so he's a little w@nker. I remember it well Eff. Everywhere he's been he's been a success as well. His crime about Barry, hge put a valuation on his player and said if we weren't prepared to pay it we couldn't have him. Cheeky little c... who does he think he is? 18 million for Gareth Barry he's having a laugh right? We showed him, we paid 27 million for Keane and Dossena instead. That taught him a lesson anyway.

It was pathetic. People were going on like MON owed us something and had no right in not selling Barry to us for the price we wanted to pay.

by **Effes** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:45 am

Is the board fecked tonight? Cant see anything going on?

by **Octsky** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:52 am

looks like many people is losing faith in rafa. but do we have an better alternative?
there a mention of kenny dalglish back as interim manager, i like the idea but he's been out of the game for 10, 15 years.
so look like we are stuck with rafa, for better or for worse.

by **bigmick** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:01 am

Octsky wrote:looks like many people is losing faith in rafa. but do we have an better alternative?

If we don't win the Champions League this season, that'll be no trophies in three seasons. If we don't get back past Chelsea that'll be five seasons in the Premiership whilst never finishing first or second.
Despite spending 200 million quid, we have gaping holes in the squad. We have a number of players who will in all probablity need to moved on as they aren't good enough. This will probably be at a significant loss, and will necessetate the purchase of yet more players.

A better alternative? Well it's a tough act to follow I'll give you that.

by **red_guy** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:17 am

i was a pro-rafa supporter for the last 4 years. I accept any excuses that he gave and blame all the misfortunes on Parry and lately on the Yanks. This season..same old, same old, odd decisions, below par signings etc....enough of that. If u ask me now, i would say i don't believe he can win us the premiership title. Frankly speaking, After Boro's game, i just cant watch his face on the tele. The league's gone, The Scum just won another trophy .... :down:

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:41 am

wow so nearly 42% want rafa out either now or at the end of the season, 11.63% want him gone now and 30.23% want him gone at the end of the season and i don't know how many of the 17 people who voted to focus on the CL want him gone also.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:43 am

i read Fowler's autobiography and he was saying how senior players in the dressing room didnt get along with Souness and one player even mentioned something like hoping we lost a few more games cause it means a sacking for the gaffer. wheres that option?

by **TheLad** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:35 am

peewee wrote:wow so nearly 42% want rafa out either now or at the end of the season, 11.63% want him gone now and 30.23% want him gone at the end of the season and i don't know how many of the 17 people who voted to focus on the CL want him gone also.

Well, that 42% is about 18 fans, let at least a few hundred members vote before we jump into conclusions (strictly from a statistical point of view).

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:56 am

TheLad wrote:
peewee wrote:wow so nearly 42% want rafa out either now or at the end of the season, 11.63% want him gone now and 30.23% want him gone at the end of the season and i don't know how many of the 17 people who voted to focus on the CL want him gone also.

Well, that 42% is about 18 fans, let at least a few hundred members vote before we jump into conclusions (strictly from a statistical point of view).

haha do you think I am taking it as a cross section of ALL liverpool fans, no mate just pointing out the voting on this site based on how its been in the past, its over 45% now

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