Liverpool FC Forum

by **Effes** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:24 pm

Rafa so far

This season - 7 pts behind the leaders (in the last 16 of Champs League) - SO FAR

4th in 2007/8 we had 76 pts - 11 behind the leaders (But got to semis in Champs League)
3rd in 2006/7 we had 68 pts - 21 behind the leaders (But got to final in Champs League)
3rd in 2005/6 we had 82 pts - 9 behind the leaders (But won the FA Cup)
5th in 2004/5 we had 58 pts - 37 behind the leaders (But won Champs League)

You can look at Rafa's form in 2 phases - League and Cup competitions.

In the league he has DEFINITLEY fluctuated, you cant look at the stats above and say it is definite progress.

However, in the Cups we have done very well. It has been Rafa's "get out of jail" card.

There's no point doing a Punch and Judy "oh yes he has, oh no he hasn't".

He hasn't progressed in the league going on past seasons, but he has in Cups.

Now if this season we come 2nd, 8 pts behind the leaders, then yes, I think you can say we have progressed.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:28 pm

Its interesting to note that when we have progressed in the CL our league has suffered due to rafa more than likely putting out the strong sides in the cl to try and win that - the year we went out in the last 16 rafa concentrated on a good finish in the league and fa cup hence our best finish under him . Last season was better points wise while still progressing in the CL . and up until the manc game last year we were still in with a shout of sorts .

by **tonyeh** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:33 pm

GYBS wrote:and are you saying we havent progressed because we didnt win any trophies at all in two years ? is it really as simple as that ?

It isn't really progress though GYBS, when the main reason Liverpool are at 2nd spot is because two of the so-called "Big Four" haven't been playing at their usual standard.

If you actually look at it in terms of how the team plays, we haven't progressed one iota from last season.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:39 pm

tonyeh wrote:
GYBS wrote:and are you saying we havent progressed because we didnt win any trophies at all in two years ? is it really as simple as that ?

It isn't really progress though GYBS, when the main reason Liverpool are at 2nd spot is because two of the so-called "Big Four" haven't been playing at their usual standard.

If you actually look at it in terms of how the team plays, we haven't progressed one iota from last season.

Werent chelsea at the beginning of the season supposed to walk the league cause of the way they were playing ? We have managed to beat them twice - plus we finally managed to beat the mancs - progress surely ? Both teams still got the same bunch of players as last season plus added extra ones ?

Its a no win situation then isnt it - we amass our best ever points tally at this stage of the season and its not because we are any good its because others are rubbish ? how the hell can anyone win then ?

by **tonyeh** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:44 pm

It doesn't matter what they were supposed to do. The fact of the matter is they haven't played at their usual standard and we have been playing pretty badly in the vast majority of our games, but have capitalised on the others bad performance.

The point being, that if Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea had been playing like they were last year, Liverpool would have been out of the race long before now and scrapping for 4th spot again.

It's not a matter of Liverpool progressing, more like the other three having below par seasons.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:47 pm

Isnt it the end result that matters ? yes chelsea and arsenal arent playing to their normal standards yet we have been poor in games and are above both of them ? all this without our top striker for a number of weeks ? how did we manage that then ? how did we manage to beat both chelsea and the mancs ? becuase they were both poor on the day ?

by **tonyeh** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:57 pm

Yes, overall, it IS the end result that matters. But as far as the argument for progression is concerned, the only real concluson is that Liverpool have not really progressed since last season.

We managed to beat Chelsea the first time through a fortunate deflection, otherwise there were no goals in that game and it ends as a 0-0 draw. Likewise we beat Utd because Wes Brown scored an OG. Without that, that game ends as a 1-1.

They are hardly convncing victories GYBS and but for fate, they can go the other way. They're certainly NOT an indication of a progressing Liverpool team.

Even in the second Chelsea match, we were still very lacklustre until the dying seconds of the game and even then Chelsea were down to 10 men.

Besides, even if we had beaten both of those teams 4-0 in every game, it makes now difference what so ever, if we fail to beat Stoke or Fulham and their like.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:00 pm

how many times did we get beat over the years by the mancs with a last minute goal despite controlling the game ? same with chelsea last season when we only lost to a poor ref ?

surely if we end up 2nd that is progression ? the fact we have more points at this stage of the season than in many previous seasons that is progression ?

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:02 pm

tonyeh wrote:It doesn't matter what they were supposed to do. The fact of the matter is they haven't played at their usual standard and we have been playing pretty badly in the vast majority of our games, but have capitalised on the others bad performance.

The point being, that if Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea had been playing like they were last year, Liverpool would have been out of the race long before now and scrapping for 4th spot again.

It's not a matter of Liverpool progressing, more like the other three having below par seasons.

Or, you could argue that we've been playing nowhere near as well as we are capable of either. I've barely seen glimpses of the form we had from this point until the end of the season last year. We played some top football in March and April, with the Torres and Gerrard partnership especially excelling. Had we reproduced that form this season it's entirely possible that we'd be sitting second (dare I say maybe even top? Who knows?) even if Arsenal and Chelsea were playing to their standards. It's baseless speculation to sit there and say that we'd be struggling away in fourth were it not for Chelsea and Arsenal's poor form.

Incidentally, Mick asked in another thread why people get wound up with the criticism and this is a good case in point. As someone who's drifted into the fuzzy grey middle between the happy clappers and the doom and gloomers in the past couple of months, I can see the validity of both sides of the debate. What gets me annoyed, though, is when people take it all a step too far. There's more than enough actual things to criticize about Rafa, the squad, the board etc. without needing to fabricate scenarios about how bad off we'd be if Chelsea and Arsenal were having a good season. Some people always want to take criticism to the nth degree and negate ANYTHING that has gone right for us. It's all chalked up to luck or Gerrard's brilliance or generous refereeing or whatever else can be trotted out to explain away the fact that we're still a lot better off this season in relation to the league table than we have been at any other point under Rafa. That doesn't mean mistakes haven't been made--they have in spades--but, FFS, just a little credit where credit's due wouldn't go amiss when it comes to evaluating our season. Bottom line: I find criticism of Rafa and the lads a lot more credible when the positives are acknowledged rather than nitpicked into oblivion.

by **Dundalk** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:03 pm

From 365

Bookmakers have been deluged with bets on Rafa Benitez leaving Liverpool.

The odds on Benitez not being Liverpool's manager at the start of the 2009/10 season have been slashed to just 1/4 by SkyBet.

Sky Bet's Dale Tempest said: "Discussions between Benitez and the club on a new contract seem to have been going on for ages and, if the money we've seen this morning is correct, it would seem that those negotiations have broken down."

The bookies also list Jose Mourinho as the 5/1 favourite to be Liverpool manager at the start of next season.

Meanwhile, William Hill report that they have been 'forced to suspend their betting on the next Premiership manager to go after Rafa Benitez was backed off the boards by Hill's customers to be the ninth manager to go.'

"We would be very surprised if Rafa is still the Liverpool boss by midnight on Sunday," said Hill's spokesman Rupert Adams.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:04 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
tonyeh wrote:It doesn't matter what they were supposed to do. The fact of the matter is they haven't played at their usual standard and we have been playing pretty badly in the vast majority of our games, but have capitalised on the others bad performance.

The point being, that if Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea had been playing like they were last year, Liverpool would have been out of the race long before now and scrapping for 4th spot again.

It's not a matter of Liverpool progressing, more like the other three having below par seasons.

Or, you could argue that we've been playing nowhere near as well as we are capable of either. I've barely seen glimpses of the form we had from this point until the end of the season last year. We played some top football in March and April, with the Torres and Gerrard partnership especially excelling. Had we reproduced that form this season it's entirely possible that we'd be sitting second (dare I say maybe even top? Who knows?) even if Arsenal and Chelsea were playing to their standards. It's baseless speculation to sit there and say that we'd be struggling away in fourth were it not for Chelsea and Arsenal's poor form.

Incidentally, Mick asked in another thread why people get wound up with the criticism and this is a good case in point. As someone who's drifted into the fuzzy grey middle between the happy clappers and the doom and gloomers in the past couple of months, I can see the validity of both sides of the debate. What gets me annoyed, though, is when people take it all a step too far. There's more than enough actual things to criticize about Rafa, the squad, the board etc. without needing to fabricate scenarios about how bad off we'd be if Chelsea and Arsenal were having a good season. Some people always want to take criticism to the nth degree and negate ANYTHING that has gone right for us. It's all chalked up to luck or Gerrard's brilliance or generous refereeing or whatever else can be trotted out to explain away the fact that we're still a lot better off this season in relation to the league table than we have been at any other point under Rafa. That doesn't mean mistakes haven't been made--they have in spades--but, FFS, just a little credit where credit's due wouldn't go amiss when it comes to evaluating our season. Bottom line: I find criticism of Rafa and the lads a lot more credible when the positives are acknowledged rather than nitpicked into oblivion.

One hundred per cent spot on bob and prob said what i was trying to say but worded a lot better :bowdown

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:05 pm

Dundalk wrote:From 365

Bookmakers have been deluged with bets on Rafa Benitez leaving Liverpool.

The odds on Benitez not being Liverpool's manager at the start of the 2009/10 season have been slashed to just 1/4 by SkyBet.

Sky Bet's Dale Tempest said: "Discussions between Benitez and the club on a new contract seem to have been going on for ages and, if the money we've seen this morning is correct, it would seem that those negotiations have broken down."

The bookies also list Jose Mourinho as the 5/1 favourite to be Liverpool manager at the start of next season.

Meanwhile, William Hill report that they have been 'forced to suspend their betting on the next Premiership manager to go after Rafa Benitez was backed off the boards by Hill's customers to be the ninth manager to go.'

"We would be very surprised if Rafa is still the Liverpool boss by midnight on Sunday," said Hill's spokesman Rupert Adams.

If thats the case then i can see the rest of the season going downhill . very sad

by **tonyeh** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:06 pm

It doesn't matter about how many lucky goals other teams got against us. They still didn't go on a run of draws that made their season redundant.

Like last season, it's our inability to score and to finish teams off that has led to a season crippling run of drawn games with opposition that we should be beating.

There's no progression there.

Again, we are only second, because Chelsea, Arsenal and to some extent Utd have had dodgy seasons. Without that, we wouldn't be second.

And another point, even with Chelsea's crap run this year, they are STILL only 3 points behind us.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:08 pm

BUT you have stated we arent doing very well yet we are above them ? how the hell did we manage that and WITHOUT torres for a fair number of games ? and gerrard at stages ?

Is us having more points at this stage of the season than any other for a while a sign of progress ? if not what is a sign of progress ?

by **tonyeh** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:16 pm

Because they've done worse than us. Look, this isn't rocket science.

Liverpool haven't progressed, they simply capitalised on bad seasons for the other three.

Our performances on the field haven't been good in the majority of cases.

There is no real progression to be seen here.

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