Liverpool FC Forum

by **Effes** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:26 pm

JBG wrote:Secondly, my other issue is with Rafa’s management. Before I elaborate let me say that I actually rate Rafa as a coach and I think he is one of the best around. He has clearly proved this with his past accomplishments and his continued success in the Champions League. However, I truly believe at this point that he will never crack the Premiership , save being handed a bottomless kitty by any potential owners.
The reason I believe this is not just due to his rotation policy or his transfer dealings (both of which are questionable) but primarily down to the fact that Rafa over intellectualises the Premiership. I think the problem with Rafa is that he puts too much thought into how we can counter the opposition, regardless of whether its Real Madrid or Stoke, instead of simply playing to the team’s strengths. Of course, this is a massive advantage to us in Europe against the big guns, but do we really need to break up the shape of our team when we play Hull or Fulham? ...................

Thirdly, there is clearly an issue with man management. Very few players have had a personality clash with Rafa, the reason being is that Rafa doesn’t engage with the players at all on a personal level. Jermaine Pennant claimed that he had no falling out with Rafa but the reason for this is that Rafa rarely said anything other than “Hello” or “good morning” to him. The same goes for even the likes of Gerrard and Carragher, both of whom have confirmed in their biographies that Rafa is a hands off manager who has absolutely no interest in them beyond their footballing abilities.

Just to get this thread back on track - Ive quoted JBG's post which kicked off part 2 of this "indictment".

I bolded 2 bits -

The first one was how I felt last season.
But the first few months of this season, had me doubting my own doubts. I wiped the slate clean in my mind, and thoght well he could just prove me very wrong.
I still think he could prove me wrong, but it's at longer odds now.
Just wanted to say, I think veryone's opinions fluctuate over time. Just look at Barry's post on the first page in contrast to how he behaves now. It's not fickle, it's just circumstances change, which inevitably influence our opinions.

The 2nd bolded bit, is how I feel and which has never waivered. For me, in a league campaign consistency is the key - chopping and changing with each opposition makes that consistency all the harder to attain.

JBG's third point - man management - again, I dont think that will ever change.

Having said all that - this season has really made me believe again in Rafa. I do think we've probably missed out with the 3 draws in January, but we've still got a fighting chance.

Im confident that by the end of the season, most will accept that Rafa deserves to stay.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:31 pm

aCe' wrote:wtf is wrong with the level of moderating on these boards sometimes... seriously its a fckin disgrace at times...

Heimdal gets banned because he chose to reply to a mod calling him (and others) kunts ?!
I get a card for telling lando to fck off back to bed after he came on and ruined this very thread by throwing around insults... but hey...they were mild insults and he already has 4 cards so he cant get carded unless he takes it to a whole new level...
many more but im guessing u all get the picture... fck that !

BigMick.. ur one of the better posters around and whether i agree with you or not u most certainly argue ur point well and u stick to posting footie more often than not... keep it up and dont let the little shtbags put u down...

There's a good boy.

by **bigmick** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:35 pm

Listen I know I proved categorically for anyone who read it that Mourinho is a fantastic manager, but posting pictures of him on a thread about Rafa might be going a bit far.

In fairness to the mods they have to do a never easy job, and at the moment and over the next few weeks as our season either storms to the summit or goes down the gurgler, it's not going to get any easier.

People from all sides of the debate, from all angles would do well to try and at least a little bit, moderate themselves.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:35 pm

bigmick wrote:It was certainly an interesting place to be this thread yesterday. One of the pains in the erse about living in New Zealand is that often you're around when others aren't, and that was the case yesterday. Just me and three of the apparently many people who evidently think I'm a c...

It won''t go down as one of my favourite sessions on newkit, but there you go.

The one thing it did do was cause me to change my conviction. I gave it much thought, and I've given it much thought since. I'm not talking about rotation obviously because much as they hate it I was right on that one, they don't even bother arguing the point anymore. I'm also not talking about my impression that the draws earleir in the season would cost us in the end. They called me all sorts for saying it but they were wrong there as well. I'm not talking about my belief that we should change the manager even, nope I'm fairly set there and prepared to wait and see if the evidence makes it the right call or not. I hope I'm wrong on this one, but we'll see.

No, the bit where I've changed my mind is in the bit where I pledged to curt right back on posting, to give the people who are a bit more positive more chance to have their voices heard. I've changed my mind there for a couple of reasons. Firstly and formostly, because I don't like and never have liked bullies. It leaves a nasty taste in my mouth to see three or four people rounding on one, a man picking on a woman or people trying to get their own way by aggression. In real life I'd jump in on the side of the underdog, when the underdog is me I'm happy to stand my corner with the biggest and best. I don't run from people I'm too old and too slow for that, and there's a world of difference between me volunteering to take a back seat and stick to two threads, and being pushed on my way by a pack of baying no nowts.

So I retract my pledge yesterday to step aside. To Barry, if that was an apology I read from you earlier, I unreservedly accept. It's forgotten. If it wasn't an apology, it should be but no matter, what's done is done. Kazza I'll not mention as it wouldn't be fair as he's on my "ignore poster" list, and to Lando I will await our next discussion about football, I always think I'm playing at Home when we're talking there, and 3-0 up, and you've had two men sent off. GYBS has mentioned me in a few posts as well I notice this morning. "Mick this" and "Mick that". To him, I will repeat what I said yesterday and say that I actually quite like the fella. I have no axe to grind, he's obviously on a different side of the fence to me on both things, but that's OK. I didn't mean to upset you on your "poll" thread fella, it was a wind-up and where I come from once you start getting wind-ups, it proves people think you're alright. No bother if you don't think the same, what I think of you doesn't depend on what you think of me.

I don't do flame wars on the internet and I aren't going to start now. Lets move on.

Give it a rest Mick. I doubt very many people bother to read your self-proclamations of brilliance anymore.

All you do is butter your own muffin day after day, post after post. Why? Do you need someone to give you a hug and say "There, there - mummy ill make it better"?

I've never once met anyone with such a degree of self-obsession as you project on here. :no

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:36 pm

bigmick wrote:Listen I know I proved categorically for anyone who read it that Mourinho is a fantastic manager, but posting pictures of him on a thread about Rafa might be going a bit far.

In fairness to the mods they have to do a never easy job, and at the moment and over the next few weeks as our season either storms to the summit or goes down the gurgler, it's not going to get any easier.

People from all sides of the debate, from all angles would do well to try and at least a little bit, moderate themselves.

I'm just telling my best pal Ace to shush, as he's off on a "the world is against me" tangent once again.

Anyone with a brain cell would see that as a joke.

by **bigmick** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:36 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:I've never once met anyone with such a degree of self-obsession as you project on here.

Anyway, "My indictment of the Rafa Benitez regime", just in case anyone forgets what the thread is called.

by **aCe'** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:37 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
aCe' wrote:wtf is wrong with the level of moderating on these boards sometimes... seriously its a fckin disgrace at times...

Heimdal gets banned because he chose to reply to a mod calling him (and others) kunts ?!
I get a card for telling lando to fck off back to bed after he came on and ruined this very thread by throwing around insults... but hey...they were mild insults and he already has 4 cards so he cant get carded unless he takes it to a whole new level...
many more but im guessing u all get the picture... fck that !

BigMick.. ur one of the better posters around and whether i agree with you or not u most certainly argue ur point well and u stick to posting footie more often than not... keep it up and dont let the little shtbags put u down...

There's a good boy.

he's better than Rafa an all u know :wwww

by **Sabre** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:41 pm

Lando, perhaps I didn't get all the nuances, but that posts didn't seem to me too inflamatory, and at the end he's offering an olive branch and move on, no?

Let's do that as soon as possible. The sides involved have already said what they had to say.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:50 pm

Is there any chance this thread might start resembling a football discussion any time soon?

by **Igor Zidane** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:06 pm

Effes wrote:
JBG wrote:Secondly, my other issue is with Rafa’s management. Before I elaborate let me say that I actually rate Rafa as a coach and I think he is one of the best around. He has clearly proved this with his past accomplishments and his continued success in the Champions League. However, I truly believe at this point that he will never crack the Premiership , save being handed a bottomless kitty by any potential owners.
The reason I believe this is not just due to his rotation policy or his transfer dealings (both of which are questionable) but primarily down to the fact that Rafa over intellectualises the Premiership. I think the problem with Rafa is that he puts too much thought into how we can counter the opposition, regardless of whether its Real Madrid or Stoke, instead of simply playing to the team’s strengths. Of course, this is a massive advantage to us in Europe against the big guns, but do we really need to break up the shape of our team when we play Hull or Fulham? ...................

Thirdly, there is clearly an issue with man management. Very few players have had a personality clash with Rafa, the reason being is that Rafa doesn’t engage with the players at all on a personal level. Jermaine Pennant claimed that he had no falling out with Rafa but the reason for this is that Rafa rarely said anything other than “Hello” or “good morning” to him. The same goes for even the likes of Gerrard and Carragher, both of whom have confirmed in their biographies that Rafa is a hands off manager who has absolutely no interest in them beyond their footballing abilities.

Just to get this thread back on track - Ive quoted JBG's post which kicked off part 2 of this "indictment".

I bolded 2 bits -

The first one was how I felt last season.
But the first few months of this season, had me doubting my own doubts. I wiped the slate clean in my mind, and thoght well he could just prove me very wrong.
I still think he could prove me wrong, but it's at longer odds now.
Just wanted to say, I think veryone's opinions fluctuate over time. Just look at Barry's post on the first page in contrast to how he behaves now. It's not fickle, it's just circumstances change, which inevitably influence our opinions.

The 2nd bolded bit, is how I feel and which has never waivered. For me, in a league campaign consistency is the key - chopping and changing with each opposition makes that consistency all the harder to attain.

JBG's third point - man management - again, I dont think that will ever change.

Having said all that - this season has really made me believe again in Rafa. I do think we've probably missed out with the 3 draws in January, but we've still got a fighting chance.

Im confident that by the end of the season, most will accept that Rafa deserves to stay.

Ok lets try again , back on topic .

I have no doubts in my mind that Rafa knows what he is doing . I've know idea sometimes and niether have many others if there honest . Now as far as i'm concerned it's a question of trust and not loyalty .

Do you trust this man to do the job he's employed to do ? Namely to win trophies and especially the prem .

Now i can understand how people have lost trust in the manager ,because in my humble opinion they don't get him .
It's far easier to trust some one if you know where they are coming from . E.g We play 4 4 2 and we play our best players when fit except in the league cup and possible the FA CUP .That's when they can have rest .

Rafa though is not your average manager . He believes (i think ) in the squad and it's strength as a whole , he believes that the squad should be adaptable and be able to play a number of systems and it should be tactically and positionally flexable . It should be able to adapt to the opposition and the conditions and wether your playing home and away .
He believes in the training sessions and how you perform in them during the week . He is obsessive in his preperation . He is not an off the cuff manager and he certainly isn't bonkers .

He is imo one of the best tactitions in the whole of europe and he is a winner .

He isn't predictable and he certainly can't be read , by the oppo or by us .
There in lies the problem , how can you trust a man whome you don't understand . Well imo i don't have another option but to trust a man who has brought all of us so much joy and has got us sooooo close . The season isn't over yet ,so lets see what it brings , there's loads more ups and downs to go on the feckin ace rollercoaster . :buttrock

by **Effes** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:09 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:He is imo one of the best tactitions in the whole of europe and he is a winner .

Agree with you there Igor - the best in the Champions League.

by **bigmick** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:09 pm

Effes wrote:
JBG wrote:Secondly, my other issue is with Rafa’s management. Before I elaborate let me say that I actually rate Rafa as a coach and I think he is one of the best around. He has clearly proved this with his past accomplishments and his continued success in the Champions League. However, I truly believe at this point that he will never crack the Premiership , save being handed a bottomless kitty by any potential owners.
The reason I believe this is not just due to his rotation policy or his transfer dealings (both of which are questionable) but primarily down to the fact that Rafa over intellectualises the Premiership. I think the problem with Rafa is that he puts too much thought into how we can counter the opposition, regardless of whether its Real Madrid or Stoke, instead of simply playing to the team’s strengths. Of course, this is a massive advantage to us in Europe against the big guns, but do we really need to break up the shape of our team when we play Hull or Fulham? ...................

Thirdly, there is clearly an issue with man management. Very few players have had a personality clash with Rafa, the reason being is that Rafa doesn’t engage with the players at all on a personal level. Jermaine Pennant claimed that he had no falling out with Rafa but the reason for this is that Rafa rarely said anything other than “Hello” or “good morning” to him. The same goes for even the likes of Gerrard and Carragher, both of whom have confirmed in their biographies that Rafa is a hands off manager who has absolutely no interest in them beyond their footballing abilities.

Just to get this thread back on track - Ive quoted JBG's post which kicked off part 2 of this "indictment".

I bolded 2 bits -

The first one was how I felt last season.
But the first few months of this season, had me doubting my own doubts. I wiped the slate clean in my mind, and thoght well he could just prove me very wrong.
I still think he could prove me wrong, but it's at longer odds now.
Just wanted to say, I think veryone's opinions fluctuate over time. Just look at Barry's post on the first page in contrast to how he behaves now. It's not fickle, it's just circumstances change, which inevitably influence our opinions.

The 2nd bolded bit, is how I feel and which has never waivered. For me, in a league campaign consistency is the key - chopping and changing with each opposition makes that consistency all the harder to attain.

JBG's third point - man management - again, I dont think that will ever change.

Having said all that - this season has really made me believe again in Rafa. I do think we've probably missed out with the 3 draws in January, but we've still got a fighting chance.

Im confident that by the end of the season, most will accept that Rafa deserves to stay.

Good post Eff, and a nice way of explaining how you feel and why you're currently where you're at. I share yor confidence that by the end of the season most people will feel that Rafa deserves to stay. I think that on balance most people feel that way now (about 65-35 would be my guess on here) and I think we'll do well enough to keep Rafa on the positive side of the ledger, (Perhaps at 55-45).

I think as long as we finish second at least, and closer than we finished up last saason, a majority of people will see it as progress and will want the manager to get a new contract and to carry on. A Champions League semi final would tip the balance more positive, whilst a final or even a win could see the ratio improving even from where it is now.

My guess is that we will be 2nd and inside of how far back we were last season, so I would expect to still be in the fairly clear minority on Rafa's position come the end of the season.

by **Number 9** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:33 pm

bigmick wrote:Listen I know I proved categorically for anyone who read it that Mourinho is a fantastic manager, but posting pictures of him on a thread about Rafa might be going a bit far.

In fairness to the mods they have to do a never easy job, and at the moment and over the next few weeks as our season either storms to the summit or goes down the gurgler, it's not going to get any easier.

People from all sides of the debate, from all angles would do well to try and at least a little bit, moderate themselves.

I Love you baby!Self moberation!

by **bigmick** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:42 pm

And I love you too Barry, my advice though to have to self "moberate" (was that a freudian slip or what) still holds good.

Anyhow, it was and is a decent thread when people take their hands from around it's throat. Lets discuss Rafa Benitez and his management of Liverpool football club. It's far more interesting than what I do for a living despite what some members think. Equally, it's far more interesting than talking about me (or at least I think it is anyway).

"My indictment of the rafa Benitez regime", as you were.

by **jono** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:43 pm

Forum, we live in a world that has opinions and those opinions need to be guarded by mods with itchy fingers. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nanny Red?
They have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom.
You weep for Heimdal and curse the mods; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what they know: that Heimdal's banning, while tragic, probably saved the forum and that their existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves the forum. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at the Grafton you want them as mods, you need mods like them. We use words like honor, wum, loyalty. We use then as the backbone of a life trying to defend something. You use them as a punchline. They have neither the time nor the inclination to explain themselves to a member who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom they provide and then questions the manner in which they provide it. They would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a keyboard and stand a post. Either way, They don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

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