Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:30 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:Also i think it's abit unfair for you to say tony got slaughtered , we disagreed with him but not slaughtered him .

Possibly "slaughtered" was strong mate and I take it back. There was bits and bobs of "jesus wepts :no

" flying around though, although I'll give you we didn't quite make it to the "your a disgrace" stage which these things normally descend into.

Fair enough though mate on the new contract, I'm sure you'd be in the majority too. A new contract would I guess be for a minimum of four years, and sensibly you'd have to give the manager at least two more of that four before you looked at it again. Gerrard will be 31 by then, Carragher well and truly into the twighlight of his career. Hope it works.

by **Igor Zidane** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:35 pm

bigmick wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:Also i think it's abit unfair for you to say tony got slaughtered , we disagreed with him but not slaughtered him .

Possibly "slaughtered" was strong mate and I take it back. There was bits and bobs of "jesus wepts " flying around though, although I'll give you we didn't quite make it to the "your a disgrace" stage which these things normally descend into.

Fair enough though mate on the new contract, I'm sure you'd be in the majority too. A new contract would I guess be for a minimum of four years, and sensibly you'd have to give the manager at least two more of that four before you looked at it again. Gerrard will be 31 by then, Carragher well and truly into the twighlight of his career. Hope it works.

That's the idea mate. :;):

by **Effes** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:04 pm

NANNY RED wrote:This is for you Effes Xabis lost his pout

Yea - but hes doin a PLanet of the Apes impression now.
Nah only messin - he looks better now

by **Sabre** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:10 pm

bigmick wrote:Tony getting slughtered with the "well what if we win the title?" angle is I suppose fair enough, and for us "anti's" it does feel uncomfomrtable answering it.

Well, I slaughtered him in an internet way, but I don't want to pursue him thread by thread, just disagree radically some logic that I can't understand.

I'll say a thought. I've read a curious logic in this thread, kind of, "If methods that are not right become succesful and bring a title, then it's blind luck".

Well, I'd like to add a thought here, if your football prejudices makes you find some methods baffling, and those methods bring the title that wasn't here for a very long time, throw all your prejudices to the thrash bin.

At some point in England the first bloody Brazilian came and he was a flop. Somebody said a Brazilian couldn't ever be succesful in England. Prejudices. Then experience taught that prejudice was wrong.

Not saying that Tonyeh's and Judge thoughts are not respectable, but sorry, if some methods win you the league, and you say that's luck in a competition of regularity through out 38 weeks, then that's a bit arrogant for my taste. It's kind of not allowing the tiniest chance to say you may we wrong and the methods you don't understand right.

FFS, I'm one of the staunchiest Rafa trusters here, but even I have a limit, if I stop seeing the progress and start to see decay, I will have to admit that Rafa's methods didn't work!!! I won't say that the english players didn't get his revolutionary methods! I won't talk about luck!! I must admit at some point that I'm wrong if evidence suggest so!

I "slaughtered" him because I don't find fair a game of debate in which you always win. If Rafa doesn't bring the league, I win. If he does, I win, it's luck. Come on, it deserves a "Jesus!" at least. Even you who are not a fan of Rafa have some limits in which you'd accept Rafa's methods (winning the league, be one point away). It's only fair.

by **bigmick** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:50 pm

Yep, it's fair enough. Like all things though, there are two sides to every story. We've had the evidence visa vis rotation for three seasons now for example. Absolutely irrefutable, unarguable eveidence (I know many had a good go at arguing and still will no doubt) but still there was/is still a head in the sand, fingers in the ears "it will work someday, it will work someday" (chant ad infinitum). People sometimes refuse to see the evidence which is right before their eyes, or at the very least have a problem accepting it, it's human nature.

If we win the title (or indeed come very close to it) some of us are going to have to fairly quickly accept that some of the things we were convinced never would work, just did. Why they worked, be it luck, fantastic management, reduction in capabilities of other teams etc is irrelevent ovet he course of a league season. If we the title, there is no argument.

That said, I've already asked the question and it's a fair one, what if we don't win it or come anywhere near, again? What if we don't win a trophy, again? Will the people who have jumped all over any dissenting voice over the last three seasons be re-evaluating? Will they be looking at it and thinking, "you know what, when people moaned about our mid-season draw fest perhaps they weren't a disgrace/a joke/fickle".

Not wanting to lose the argument both ways is fair enough. If we fail to win a trophy, we've made progress and the manager is a legend who deserves another five year contract. Win a trophy and the manager is a legend who deserves a five year contract. Get the best start the club has ever had in the Premiership whilst playing practically the same team in every single match, spunk the lead you've built up whilst rotating but still come second, rotation works and I was right all along.

by **Effes** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:59 pm

bigmick wrote:That said, I've already asked the question and it's a fair one, what if we don't win it or come anywhere near, again? What if we don't win a trophy, again? Will the people who have jumped all over any dissenting voice over the last three seasons be re-evaluating? Will they be looking at it and thinking, "you know what, when people moaned about our mid-season draw fest perhaps they weren't a disgrace/a joke/fickle".

Mick - Im defo not in the category of people who have jumped over "dissenting voices".
Ive been critical of Rafa and his methods myself. And I was most critical when we drew the Stoke away, Everton, Wigan games.
In fact, I think that patch cost us the league.

Reading through posts over the last 2 months or so, Ive questioned myself, "where do I draw the line" with regards to whether Rafa stays or goes?

"Will they be looking at it and thinking, "you know what, when people moaned about our mid-season draw fest perhaps they weren't a disgrace/a joke/fickle".

I was one who was annoyed at the people who kept saying "But we're still top" (Leon's thread) - I think they were being short-sighted.

They often say it's a thin line between success and failure. And it's true. And everyone has their "line".

Mine is 4-5 points of Man U.

However - it's not that simple. If we were to come second, 6 points behind Man U but also
get to the final of the Champs League, I'd think twice.

So, it's hard to draw a definite line, to be honest.
But other competitions aside, 4-5 points of Man U.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:21 am

Effes wrote:
bigmick wrote:That said, I've already asked the question and it's a fair one, what if we don't win it or come anywhere near, again? What if we don't win a trophy, again? Will the people who have jumped all over any dissenting voice over the last three seasons be re-evaluating? Will they be looking at it and thinking, "you know what, when people moaned about our mid-season draw fest perhaps they weren't a disgrace/a joke/fickle".

Mick - Im defo not in the category of people who have jumped over "dissenting voices".
Ive been critical of Rafa and his methods myself. And I was most critical when we drew the Stoke away, Everton, Wigan games.
In fact, I think that patch cost us the league.

Reading through posts over the last 2 months or so, Ive questioned myself, "where do I draw the line" with regards to whether Rafa stays or goes?

"Will they be looking at it and thinking, "you know what, when people moaned about our mid-season draw fest perhaps they weren't a disgrace/a joke/fickle".

I was one who was annoyed at the people who kept saying "But we're still top" (Leon's thread) - I think they were being short-sighted.

They often say it's a thin line between success and failure. And it's true. And everyone has their "line".

Mine is 4-5 points of Man U.

However - it's not that simple. If we were to come second, 6 points behind Man U but also
get to the final of the Champs League, I'd think twice.

So, it's hard to draw a definite line, to be honest.
But other competitions aside, 4-5 points of Man U.

Good post and I agree mate you have been one of the "reasoned" voices on here over the past few months.

by **bigmick** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:30 am

Eff' I totally agree that drawing lines is very difficult, and the best bet is to make sure they're drwan in sand so you can rub em out sharpish should the unforseen happen

Clearly though Sabre makes a good point that should we win the league there is vindication not just for the manager, but for his supporters on here as well, and no doubt for the debate squashers too.

I'm personally not really taking the Champions League into account. Not that I won't be cheering us on should we get to the business end of the thing, but to me it's kind of a non event as far as the managers contract is concerned. By that, I mean if Real Madrid were to put us out it would be very harsh on Benitez to have a pop at him for his Champions League record given that he normally goes well in the competition. Equally, if has long been my belief that the big four Englaish clubs ought really to get the last eight or so year on year. Anything more is a bonus, anything less a failure. I'm not though going to get overly excited by a semi final slot for instance, Cheslea get there every year, as do Man U.

No, it's the league that counts for me. Once the fat lady is has taken her bow, we'll all have a better idea where we stand. I think we'll stand 2nd, 8 points behind the winners who will be Man Utd. If I'm right or even close to being right, we should be shaking hands with the manager and thanking him for his five years of service to the club. The we should begin the process of trying to find a manager who can win us the Premiership. IMHO, if you can't win it this year you never can.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:45 am

bigmick wrote:Yep, it's fair enough. Like all things though, there are two sides to every story. We've had the evidence visa vis rotation for three seasons now for example. Absolutely irrefutable, unarguable eveidence (I know many had a good go at arguing and still will no doubt) but still there was/is still a head in the sand, fingers in the ears "it will work someday, it will work someday" (chant ad infinitum). People sometimes refuse to see the evidence which is right before their eyes, or at the very least have a problem accepting it, it's human nature.

If we win the title (or indeed come very close to it) some of us are going to have to fairly quickly accept that some of the things we were convinced never would work, just did. Why they worked, be it luck, fantastic management, reduction in capabilities of other teams etc is irrelevent ovet he course of a league season. If we the title, there is no argument.

That said, I've already asked the question and it's a fair one, what if we don't win it or come anywhere near, again? What if we don't win a trophy, again? Will the people who have jumped all over any dissenting voice over the last three seasons be re-evaluating? Will they be looking at it and thinking, "you know what, when people moaned about our mid-season draw fest perhaps they weren't a disgrace/a joke/fickle".

Not wanting to lose the argument both ways is fair enough. If we fail to win a trophy, we've made progress and the manager is a legend who deserves another five year contract. Win a trophy and the manager is a legend who deserves a five year contract. Get the best start the club has ever had in the Premiership whilst playing practically the same team in every single match, spunk the lead you've built up whilst rotating but still come second, rotation works and I was right all along.

I agree with Saint on this one...there have been some incredibly bizarre decisions from Rafa this season that have set off the alarm bells but I'll reserve judgment until the end of the season and re-evaluate then, once all evidence is on the table. Otherwise we're just dealing in scenarios: what if we get to the CL final but end up 6 points back in the league? what if we fade away badly and then rebound to 'run through beaten horses' to get within 3 points? what if we're level on points with the Mancs on the final day of the season but Keane scores an injury time winner to deny us the title? What if...?

With that said, there are two scenarios that I can give you a definite answer for right now:

1) If we implode and fall out of the top 4, Rafa has to go--no question.

2) If we win the league, Rafa has to stay--no question. Why? Because winning the league is at the top of the to do list for the manager and being able to cross that chore off in any season earns you the right to have another bash at it the year after, no matter how you managed to pull it off.

As for Tony, well he was the one who brought up the idea of winning the league in the first place so he really can have no complaints that we've focused on that scenario. Once we make that the scenario, though, I find it barking mad, absolute lunacy, stark raving bonkers etc. etc. for anyone to suggest that Rafa doesn't deserve credit for the win (and, yes, arguing that we'll have won it "despite" Rafa is saying exactly that). Equally, I find it beyond comprehension that anyone could contemplate dismissing Rafa's methods as "folly" if they deliver us a title. We're not talking a lucky result in a one-off game here...we're talking top of the pile after 38 games in the league we all acknowledge to be the toughest in world football. And Chelsea and Arsenal's form matters not a jot in this because the Mancs are in the driver's seat now, as several Rafa critics have noted. So, if we do go on and win this thing we'll have overcome a pretty formidable adversary to do so. Tony would have us believe that the ends don't justify the means but, when it comes to winning the league, they most certainly do and I'll wager he'll be in a minority of one in suggesting otherwise.

by **Sabre** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:56 am

bigmick wrote:Yep, it's fair enough. Like all things though, there are two sides to every story. We've had the evidence visa vis rotation for three seasons now for example. Absolutely irrefutable, unarguable eveidence (I know many had a good go at arguing and still will no doubt) but still there was/is still a head in the sand, fingers in the ears "it will work someday, it will work someday" (chant ad infinitum). People sometimes refuse to see the evidence which is right before their eyes, or at the very least have a problem accepting it, it's human nature.

If we win the title (or indeed come very close to it) some of us are going to have to fairly quickly accept that some of the things we were convinced never would work, just did. Why they worked, be it luck, fantastic management, reduction in capabilities of other teams etc is irrelevent ovet he course of a league season. If we the title, there is no argument.

That said, I've already asked the question and it's a fair one, what if we don't win it or come anywhere near, again? What if we don't win a trophy, again? Will the people who have jumped all over any dissenting voice over the last three seasons be re-evaluating? Will they be looking at it and thinking, "you know what, when people moaned about our mid-season draw fest perhaps they weren't a disgrace/a joke/fickle".

Fair enough questions and I'll answer.

What if we don't win the trophy and we're 8 points off? three years without a trophy are much for a top club, I'll be very dissapointed. If you add to that a couple of key players leaving for whatever reason (Reina, Mascherano), I'll see signs of not progress, but wandering if not decay.

At that point I'll admit freely that Rafa's methods haven't worked well. And if the next season is not very good and confirms the decay, I'd think of another manager. And I'll post here with no problems "I must admit that you were right when you said we were stuck with this guy, and I was too stubborn in my defence of him". No problemo.

Similarly, I don't have problemos to find Rafa's management of Keane an error. I considered it an error in the moment of the shocking news, and I consider it an error after some thought.
I can't defend that decission from where I sit.

No problemos aswell to admit another evidence. You said Alonso could make a favour to himself if he ventured more on attack, I insisted too much on his main role being the holding midfielder one. Once again, in front of evidence, I have to say you were right. No one else said what you did, people were either Alonso defenders, or Alonso bashers who would swáp him for Barry. You instead criticised his game, and said what he needed to improve. And you were right.

But on rotation, and I know it may be frustrating because you have explained yourself well, you haven't convinced me. When I sum up what I've read here and there, when I listen the experts here and there, when I see the method working elsewhere (for instance Barcelona these days) I fail to see why England should be different. Football is football, and Alonso is good in Spain and in England, and Josemi is not good in Spain and in England. So sorry, but in that front I'm not convinced. But not that it's stubborness to not to accept it, call it blindness if you like. I disagree, it hasn't been, it isn't and probably it won't be a key factor for me.

If Rafa falls into decay and the team is not progressing, I'll admit that evidence, I'll say his methods (man management, training, team selections, rotation degree, tactical displays, media handling) as a whole didn't work, but I won't be able to say that his rotation policy has been the main trouble. I'm simply not convinced. I don't find it evident. I've put other examples in which I accept evidence, but I can't accept as evidence what it's not convincing for me. But be sure that the problem is not that I don't want to accept it.

by **bigmick** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:58 am

Well fortunately I think we've got a good bit more chance of winning it that we have of finishing fifth Bob, so the first one of your scenarios is at best unlikely. Broadly though, what you are saying is spot on. Lets wait till the end of the season before we decide whether it's ben a fantastic effort and a massive progression or not. By then, everyone will have a much clearer idea.

In the meantime, all true fans of the club and certainly all fans of the manager, should be hoping IMHo that somethign from somewhere comes along to derail Man Utd. I don't FWIW think we're quite good enough to go head to head in a "win fest" with the Mancs from now until the end of the season. We've never managed such consistency at any stage durign Rafa's five years, and I don't think we're about to start now. Our very best chance is if the Mancs revert to their form of the first 1/3 of the season. If they can once again become bafflingly inconsistent, scoreable against and the like then we might just have enough in the locker to give them a run. If on the other hand the ask is going to be that we win 12 out our last 13 or something, I don't think we are up to that. This is particularly so with only one recognised striker.

by **112-1077774096** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:09 am

evidence is already on the table bob, 9 draws against teams we should be beating, surely if we go on to win it people can not claim these draws were all part of some tactical masterplan. if we go on to win it this year its because the mancs slip up, they are the ones in the driving seat. we were in the driving seat until Mr.mustsitbackandtakenorisks fecked us over

if we win the league nobody can point to rafas alleged genius, he has already shown us this is not the case by throwing away he lead whilst whilst whinging about red nose and his new contract. if he had any sense he would have just signed it for the bigger pay off when he gets booted. it seems like this contract is not coming, i am sure the board would have already discussed his terms about sole control of signings before they offered him the contract so whats the delay now? the contract is not coming

by **112-1077774096** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:12 am

i am in a no lose situation here, if we win it, fantastic, i will be happy to take stick on here, if we lose it we get a new manager

oh wait there is another choice, we lose it and he gets another chance next season

by **Sabre** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:21 am

So evidence is in the table, 9 points lost against teams that should have been won. Ok, those points should have been won, and we're dissapointed for it.

But we're talking about keeping the manager or not, so we should consider his reign here not the last two months. The league table also says Arsenal have dropped more points than Liverpool (and that includes games that should have been won). Is it evident in their case that Wenger should be sácked? No, in my opinion. You have to dig deeper in that career and I'd still say that Arsenal doesn't need a new man on charge. If they did, I don't think they'd be in a better position to fight Manchester and Chelsea's millions. Similarly, I consider Scolari's sacking a sign of impatience on Abramovich' behalf.

So, as much as I too find this recent bliiip dissapointing, that bliiip can't change the opinion I have about a man being right. I can't ignore we've missed Torres. I'm surprised people forget that so often when our bliiip is analysed, because everyone accepts Torres' class and we've fúcking missed him, that's evident me thinks.

by **112-1077774096** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:15 am

Since when has 9 draws equated to 9 points lost? That 18 points lost against teams we should beat, we took 2 points of stoke all season.

As for his reign, I already discussed that and pointed out the lack of progress. As for torres, when did we become a one man team? Even when he is fit he is left on the bench at Portsmouth leading to another game harder than it needs to be.

Also why are you talking about arsenal, what does that have to do with benitez, the fact the are dropping points along with Chelsea just makes our own season look better.

These are not blips mate, this is the manager getting it wrong

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