My indictment of the rafa benitez regime

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby GYBS » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:04 pm

Number 9 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Sheep? I don't get this bit. Just because people agree with a certain point, it doesn't make them "sheep". People who believe that Rafa ought to be given another contract and the wherewithall to turn the five year plan into a ten year plan aren't sheep, they have come to an opinion based on what they've seen what they've read, how they feel etc and they are entitled so to do. Similarly, people who don't believe that aren't sheep either. Surely they ought to allowed an opinion as well, and the courtesy of an acceptance that they probably drew conclusions in the same way as people on the oppositie side of the debate?

The fact that one of the most obvious choices was missed off the options wasn't a huge problem I didn't think, and I don't understand why people got so hot under the collar about it. I deliberately started a completely seperate thread in a completely seperate section of the forum about the most glaring "others" omission that I could think of. I did it precisely because if I had put it in the poll thread it would have derailed it. I then made a mental note to myself not to even mention that persons name in your poll thread, once again to give it a good chance to run. I stuck to that intil right near the end, despite numerous attempts by people to get me onto the subject of that person.

Then, when the thread gets closed down the advice given is to open a new thread about any "others", but I'd already done it two days previously. If poll threads about the managers position (which I still think are a bit out of order given we have a manager who is challenging for the title) descend into name calling and flame wars then fair enough, but in this case it all seemed pretty cordial to me.

One of the biggest shames of the thing is that you never did get the chance GYBS to properly answer Peewee's question a couple of pages from the end of the locked thread. Perhaps you didn't see it I don't know, but given that your opinion of some of the "others" in your poll led to you omitting them from your top eight, it would be interesting to read your thoughts on that one.

The feeling persists though I'm afraid that whenever the discussion becomes a bit uncomfortable for certain posters, threads get locked.

Maybe some people are just getting pi$$ed off coming on the board and listening to how shi'te Rafa is at everything,how he will never win the League and has to go,and how wonderful Mourinho is mate?

No big deal that the thread was locked.In fact one thread for w@nking over Mourinho is plenty...maybe even on too many!

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Postby account deleted by request » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:28 pm

There is only one thing I want from a manager ........success. Everything else is just hot air and wind. A manager should be judged on results, not whether he wears the right coloured underwear or is more "likeable". If we wanted a "likeable manager we should have stuck with Evans. What we need is a manager that wins games, wins titles. If Rafa can thats great....... if he can't, we need to get a man that can.
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Postby bigmick » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:34 pm

Number 9 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Sheep? I don't get this bit. Just because people agree with a certain point, it doesn't make them "sheep". People who believe that Rafa ought to be given another contract and the wherewithall to turn the five year plan into a ten year plan aren't sheep, they have come to an opinion based on what they've seen what they've read, how they feel etc and they are entitled so to do. Similarly, people who don't believe that aren't sheep either. Surely they ought to allowed an opinion as well, and the courtesy of an acceptance that they probably drew conclusions in the same way as people on the oppositie side of the debate?

The fact that one of the most obvious choices was missed off the options wasn't a huge problem I didn't think, and I don't understand why people got so hot under the collar about it. I deliberately started a completely seperate thread in a completely seperate section of the forum about the most glaring "others" omission that I could think of. I did it precisely because if I had put it in the poll thread it would have derailed it. I then made a mental note to myself not to even mention that persons name in your poll thread, once again to give it a good chance to run. I stuck to that intil right near the end, despite numerous attempts by people to get me onto the subject of that person.

Then, when the thread gets closed down the advice given is to open a new thread about any "others", but I'd already done it two days previously. If poll threads about the managers position (which I still think are a bit out of order given we have a manager who is challenging for the title) descend into name calling and flame wars then fair enough, but in this case it all seemed pretty cordial to me.

One of the biggest shames of the thing is that you never did get the chance GYBS to properly answer Peewee's question a couple of pages from the end of the locked thread. Perhaps you didn't see it I don't know, but given that your opinion of some of the "others" in your poll led to you omitting them from your top eight, it would be interesting to read your thoughts on that one.

The feeling persists though I'm afraid that whenever the discussion becomes a bit uncomfortable for certain posters, threads get locked.

Maybe some people are just getting pi$$ed off coming on the board and listening to how shi'te Rafa is at everything,how he will never win the League and has to go,and how wonderful Mourinho is mate?

No big deal that the thread was locked.In fact one thread for w@nking over Mourinho is plenty...maybe even on too many!

Well they haven't heard how sh!te Rafa is at everything off me Baz, that's for sure. I agree with you on the Mourinho thread by the way, that's why I started it in a section which people barely visit, so it didn't cause any offence.

Equally, I tried to keep the w2nking over him to a minimum, prefrring to just go with the facts of his record and allow others to judge.

Anyway, once again I'm allowing myself to get dragged into something which will derail the thread.

MY INDICTMENT OF THE RAFA BENITEZ REGIME. As you were. Isn't it strange how people would put anti Rafa comments in this thread, and if you come into it and read them you might get of reading anti Rafa comments? Very odd, but anyway as you were.
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Postby Sabre » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:41 pm

It would be interesting to make a bit of memory effort and remember what was said and why previous Liverpool managers were sácked. Was it decay? Was it failing to win the league? Was it failing to challenge? Was it failing to challenge and not playing the champions league final stage?

I'd sack Rafa the moment I stopped seeing progress and  I saw a bit of decay. I won't set the line of success in the fact he wins the league title or not this year, but the fact he has improved or gone backwards in progress, and being where we are right now in the league, I don't see us going backward.

I'll always ask Rafa a bit more than  what he was offering the club 2 years ago, if he doesn't deliver that, it will the time for thinking in another manager. In the mean time, I preffer to see how progress puts us first 3 times in the best 4 teams in Europe, and in a position to challenge for the title in the league. The next year I'll ask him to be even closer or to win it.

Beware of greed, probably some clever cúnt at London thought aswell that Mourinho reached as far as he could and they could do it better with someone else. Well, they were wrong.
Last edited by Sabre on Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Effes » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:47 pm

Number 9 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Sheep? I don't get this bit. Just because people agree with a certain point, it doesn't make them "sheep". People who believe that Rafa ought to be given another contract and the wherewithall to turn the five year plan into a ten year plan aren't sheep, they have come to an opinion based on what they've seen what they've read, how they feel etc and they are entitled so to do. Similarly, people who don't believe that aren't sheep either. Surely they ought to allowed an opinion as well, and the courtesy of an acceptance that they probably drew conclusions in the same way as people on the oppositie side of the debate?

The fact that one of the most obvious choices was missed off the options wasn't a huge problem I didn't think, and I don't understand why people got so hot under the collar about it. I deliberately started a completely seperate thread in a completely seperate section of the forum about the most glaring "others" omission that I could think of. I did it precisely because if I had put it in the poll thread it would have derailed it. I then made a mental note to myself not to even mention that persons name in your poll thread, once again to give it a good chance to run. I stuck to that intil right near the end, despite numerous attempts by people to get me onto the subject of that person.

Then, when the thread gets closed down the advice given is to open a new thread about any "others", but I'd already done it two days previously. If poll threads about the managers position (which I still think are a bit out of order given we have a manager who is challenging for the title) descend into name calling and flame wars then fair enough, but in this case it all seemed pretty cordial to me.

One of the biggest shames of the thing is that you never did get the chance GYBS to properly answer Peewee's question a couple of pages from the end of the locked thread. Perhaps you didn't see it I don't know, but given that your opinion of some of the "others" in your poll led to you omitting them from your top eight, it would be interesting to read your thoughts on that one.

The feeling persists though I'm afraid that whenever the discussion becomes a bit uncomfortable for certain posters, threads get locked.

Maybe some people are just getting pi$$ed off coming on the board and listening to how shi'te Rafa is at everything,how he will never win the League and has to go,and how wonderful Mourinho is mate?

No big deal that the thread was locked.In fact one thread for w@nking over Mourinho is plenty...maybe even on too many!

Frig off Barry - if people want to say they think Rafa hasn't got what it takes so be it.
Read and swallow. Its tough sh1t if you dont like it.

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Postby Effes » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:50 pm

Sabre wrote:Beware of greed, probably some clever cúnt at London ven closer or to win it.
thought aswell that Mourinho reached as far as he could and they could do it better with someone else. Well, they were wrong.

They got rid of Mourinho because of the in-fighting and politics.

A lot of people (including me) thought they were mad to get rid of him.
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Postby aCe' » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:10 pm

Fck me... is this whole sht about antis and pros getting worse or is it just me ?!

I’m losing all interest in posting because of GYBS and his likes to be honest jumping at every post criticizing the poster with 1liner bullsht posts that basically question loyalty or quite simply offer irrelevant and tedious support to the manager/players... guess what GYBS, ur fcking boring mate, probably the most boring, clueless poster these boards have ever seen..

My indictment of the rafa regime...

Well... he's been a terrific coach for us... we’re yet again one of the better sides in the continent and he's done a great job in making us one of the hardest sides to beat in world football at the moment... I think it was saint who said earlier that the one thing u look for in a manager is success and whether a manager would bring in any... now IMO, Benitez has taken us as far as he can... I don’t think he has what it takes to win us the league, which after all is our main hope/objective/whatever... his approach to the game is too negative at times, and add to that the fact that he thinks that a player can’t play 2 games in a row without somehow being rotated 3 times whilst at it... all the crrappy transfers.. etc etc... Would take a lot of things going our way at once for us to become champions under him imo...

I don’t think he should or could be sacked this season quite simply because we’re still in it and its pretty late to bring someone in and hope for an instant impact because even that might not be enough for us to win it this season... Starting next season though, I think it wouldn’t be a bad idea at all if we start off with a new manager... not to milk it or anything but mourinho would be a fantastic man to have in charge... not that i think it could/will happen, just that i cant seem to think of many others who wouldnt be (risks) if you will... Gullit is another one I find pretty interesting but I won’t go there now...

Anyways... hope everyone is having a good night
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Postby Sabre » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:16 pm

now IMO, Benitez has taken us as far as he can... I don’t think he has what it takes to win us the league, which after all is our main hope/objective/whatever...


Disclaimer: this is not an attack, but a question.

The question is why. Where do you see the symptoms, the signs, that makes you think he has reached as far as he can.

You didn't expect to be where we are in July, so, why are you so sure now that he has brought the club as far as he can?
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Postby aCe' » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:38 pm

Sabre wrote:
now IMO, Benitez has taken us as far as he can... I don’t think he has what it takes to win us the league, which after all is our main hope/objective/whatever...


Disclaimer: this is not an attack, but a question.

The question is why. Where do you see the symptoms, the signs, that makes you think he has reached as far as he can.

You didn't expect to be where we are in July, so, why are you so sure now that he has brought the club as far as he can?

sabre ur one of the better posters around when it comes to footie talk so u can attack me all you want as long as its footie talk and not just the same old boring "all hail rafa" and "shut ur fckin trap and just support the manager" talk..

back to ur question...

i'v seen progress under Rafa as im sure everyone else has, what i'v also seen is a particular disinterest from his part when it comes to changing some of the detrimental aspects of his managment of the club... if you want to be more specific, im particularly worries about : rotation, transfers, lineups, substitutions, media handling.

The way we set up in many games just baffles me.. and im not just talking about our lineups its everything else that goes along with it.. our attacking play is lacking at times (and im not just talking about this season), the substitutions at times seem to make things worse rather than try to rectify any mistakes in the initial selections..etc etc..

transfers... we'v alrready covered that a million times im sure u know where i stand there..

rotation... just too much at times... we dont have quality in the squad as much as many seem to believe so until we do this is always going to be a problem..

media handling... whether it be the Ferguson rant or all the contract talk bullsht, it's always had an effect on the players and the performances n the pitch imo... see this is just a matter of opinion, as im sure most of the other sht i post is... personally, id rather he kept sht behind closed doors, have the occasional rant here and there but the way he goes about it its just getting boring and childish now..

one more thing that is absolutely irrelevant here... maybe not absolutely but u'll know what i mean...
do other managers seem to hate benitez or is it just me ? i mean over the years he's had his fair share of spats with other managers and whenever i hear any other manager talking about him i just sense that they dont seem to get along with him very much... mourinho, fegie, oneil, capello, del bosque(sp?).. im sure theres others out there..
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Postby Scottbot » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:08 am

aCe' wrote:i'v seen progress under Rafa as im sure everyone else has, what i'v also seen is a particular disinterest from his part when it comes to changing some of the detrimental aspects of his managment of the club... if you want to be more specific, im particularly worries about : rotation, transfers, lineups, substitutions, media handling.

The way we set up in many games just baffles me.. and im not just talking about our lineups its everything else that goes along with it.. our attacking play is lacking at times (and im not just talking about this season), the substitutions at times seem to make things worse rather than try to rectify any mistakes in the initial selections..etc etc..

transfers... we'v alrready covered that a million times im sure u know where i stand there..

rotation... just too much at times... we dont have quality in the squad as much as many seem to believe so until we do this is always going to be a problem..

media handling... whether it be the Ferguson rant or all the contract talk bullsht, it's always had an effect on the players and the performances n the pitch imo... see this is just a matter of opinion, as im sure most of the other sht i post is... personally, id rather he kept sht behind closed doors, have the occasional rant here and there but the way he goes about it its just getting boring and childish now..

Can't really argue with any of that and ditto for much of the other criticism that the manager has received on here, much of it is spot on and things could really go tits up for Rafa if injuries and a few results go against us in the next few weeks. BUT, and it's BIG but, we're still right in the mix here and it does surprise me a little to see critics of Rafa becoming more and more certain that he is the wrong man for the job despite the fact that we are still very much in the running. I've been VERY frustrated with Rafa at times this season and our recent activities/lack of activity in the transfer window has left me utterly bemused BUT (there's that word again) it is tempered when I glance at the (still) very healthy looking league table. The Manager can be a lucky bugger, just look at Istanbul, how many other managers (search the history books) have a result like that in their locker? Who knows what's coming, hard as it is to believe, Ryan Babel might actually turn out to be the reliable back-up striker we need, Deadly Dirk could keep on scoring,  Bennayoun could continue his impressive recent form, and (getting silly now) Dossena might start to look like a Premiership player (is it me, or has he actually looked like he isn't completely out of place in English football the last couple of games?). Our lucky manager might just get away with it you know.

My question is, will you guys (who have given up the ghost as far as Rafa is concerned) still maintain that opinion if we are still within 3 points of the mancs going into the last 5 games of the season?

For me, I look back at the majority of our performances this season, I look at some of the team selections, the substitutions and some very bizarre decisions and think to myself, how the f..u..c..k are we sitting two points off the top of the table but this is where we find ourselves. I know we should probably be sitting 2 points clear but what's gone has gone. i said at the start of the season that I wanted us to be challenging going into March and that that would be enough for me. Well, i want more now, we all do but looking at the table every Monday, and comparing our current league position at this time of year to every previous season under Rafa tempers any criticism I might have made over the weekend when games haven't gone our way.
Last edited by Scottbot on Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Effes » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:13 am

Scottbot wrote:Can't really argue with any of that and ditto for much of the other criticism that the manager has received on here, much of it is spot on and things could really go tits up for Rafa if injuries and a few results go against us in the next few weeks. BUT, and it's BIG but, we're still right in the mix here and it does surprise me a little to see critics of Rafa becoming more and more certain that he is the wrong man for the job despite the fact that we are still very much in the running. I've been VERY frustrated with Rafa at times this season and our recent activities/lack of activity in the transfer window has left me utterly bemused BUT (there's that word again) it is tempered when I glance at the (still) very healthy looking league table. The Manager can be a lucky bugger, just look at Istanbul, how many other managers (search the history books) have a result like that in their locker? Who knows what's coming, hard as it is to believe, Ryan Babel might actually turn out to be the reliable back-up striker we need, Deadly Dirk could keep on scoring,  Bennayoun could continue his impressive recent form, and (getting silly now) Dossena might start to look like a Premiership player (is it me, or has he actually looked like he isn't completely out of place in English football the last couple of games?). Our lucky manager might just get away with it you know.

My question is, will you guys (who have given up the ghost as far as Rafa is concerned) still maintain that opinion if we are still within 3 points of the mancs going into the last 5 games of the season?

For me, I look back at the majority of our performances this season, I look at some of the team selections, the substitutions and some very bizarre decisions and think to myself, how the f..u..c..k are we sitting two points off the top of the table but this is where we find ourselves. I know we should probably be sitting 2 points clear but what's gone has gone. i said at the start of the season that I wanted us to be challenging going into March and that that would be enough for me. Well, i want more now, we all do but looking at the table every Monday, and comparing our current league position at this time of year to every previous season under Rafa tempers any criticism I might have made over the weekend when games haven't gone our way.

All I can say is, my thoughts entirely, then I'll shut the feck up.
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Postby JC_81 » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:21 am

Sabre wrote:
now IMO, Benitez has taken us as far as he can... I don’t think he has what it takes to win us the league, which after all is our main hope/objective/whatever...


Disclaimer: this is not an attack, but a question.

The question is why. Where do you see the symptoms, the signs, that makes you think he has reached as far as he can.

You didn't expect to be where we are in July, so, why are you so sure now that he has brought the club as far as he can?

Sabre, this is not a dig at you mate...

But can people please fu.cking stop putting disclaimers on their posts??  Mick started it and it irritates the fu.ck out of me to be honest.  Just post your bloody thoughts and don't worry if people want to criticise!!  Fu.cking disclaimers :laugh:
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Postby Scottbot » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:24 am

john craig wrote:
Sabre wrote:
now IMO, Benitez has taken us as far as he can... I don’t think he has what it takes to win us the league, which after all is our main hope/objective/whatever...


Disclaimer: this is not an attack, but a question.

The question is why. Where do you see the symptoms, the signs, that makes you think he has reached as far as he can.

You didn't expect to be where we are in July, so, why are you so sure now that he has brought the club as far as he can?

Sabre, this is not a dig at you mate...

But can people please fu.cking stop putting disclaimers on their posts??  Mick started it and it irritates the fu.ck out of me to be honest.  Just post your bloody thoughts and don't worry if people want to criticise!!  Fu.cking disclaimers :laugh:

I know! Same here. If they don't like what you say.

Fu..c..k em!




Lando will be using them next  :D
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Postby aCe' » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:25 am

john craig wrote:
Sabre wrote:
now IMO, Benitez has taken us as far as he can... I don’t think he has what it takes to win us the league, which after all is our main hope/objective/whatever...


Disclaimer: this is not an attack, but a question.

The question is why. Where do you see the symptoms, the signs, that makes you think he has reached as far as he can.

You didn't expect to be where we are in July, so, why are you so sure now that he has brought the club as far as he can?

Disclaimer: Sabre, this is not a dig at you mate...

But can people please fu.cking stop putting disclaimers on their posts??  Mick started it and it irritates the fu.ck out of me to be honest.  Just post your bloody thoughts and don't worry if people want to criticise!!  Fu.cking disclaimers :laugh:

forgot a word there  :rasp
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Postby bigmick » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:34 am

Some good posts and it's heartening that when people choose to post sensibly, there's still some good debate on here.

Some things I think are absolutely beyond dispute. One of them is that we have progressed some from the team which Rafa was left by Houllier. It's silly disputing that I think, so my questions are twofold. Firstly, whether or not the manager can improve us still further and win the title with us, and secondly has the improvement, the rafalution been a fair return on much financial investment and five years of effort.

Answering the second bit first, it's a close call I think. We've spent a huge amount of money, and if the squad is closely analysed it is still glaringly weak in some areas and hugly unbalanced. That said, enough of the signings have come off, and Gerrard has matured into the best player in the World which has given us a decent first team. The youth set-up despite much fanfare and investment appears to be unlikely to yield up any superstars soon, while trophy wise we have two in four years, and we are still involved in two this year. Two trophies in five seasons should it come to that is hardly stuff of which legends are made to be fair, and these next few weeks really are massively important in terms of judging any progress. As I've already said I don't think we'll win the league this season, and I suppose the odds from the bookies would probably be against us winning anything but we'll see. Should that come to pass though, we'd be three seasons without a trophy so progress would be gradual at best I think.

The first question is more one of feel I think. The inadequacies of the teeam which rafa inherited were fairly obvious, and he addressed them in the following years. Fairly clearly we needed a goalkeeper for instance, and he bought us a very good one. Equally we needed a good central midfielder, and he bought us one. As time has gone on though, I've had the distinct impression that we are losing our way in terms of focusing on doing what we need to improve. This Summers signings for instance for a 40 million quid outlay were nothing short of miserable.

Equally, although it did look for a while that we'd made progress in terms of rotation, odd selections, odd substitutions and the like, it now looks to me like we're slipping backwards. Equally, our man management techniques seem so far behind our immmediate rivals that I think we care costantly behind the eight ball. Add in Rafa's behaviour this season when we did actually get close to the top of the league, the way he appeared to completely lose his head and it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

All in all he's done OK. We had a quite a bit of the rub of the green in the Champions League win, and if you take that out of the equation the record would look a lot worse. Of course you can't and don't take that out of the equation, but the margins are fine.

We may end up when the fat lady has actually finished singing no closeer to the Mancs than we were last season. They aren't going to fall out of the blocks next season like they did this, and neither are Arsenal and Chelsea going to concede so readily either. We are in the race still just, but what a chance we had. What a chance. We will never get a better one. To win it in future we will need to be a better team than we are now, and I wonder whether he's capable of taking us there.
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