Liverpool FC Forum

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:58 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:Where is the fair bit he offers going forward coming from ?
He to my knowledge has played one key pass all season, the ball for Gerrards second at Newcastle.
When he has got in good areas he has been wasteful and lacks the composure of a good attacking player.
He played a one two against Wigan to make room for a shot just outside the area and dragged it horribly wide, no technique in the shot at all.
He has at times got himself into useful headed positions but has again let himself down with his finishing.
He may be only 21 but he is in his second season here now and gets alot of playing time.

Dossena looks poor defensively, not great going forward and is small also so that puts us in danger of the diagonal ball over the top, added to that his pace isnt great and he dives in at times, all in all he looks nowhere near the required standard.
Yes he hasnt had much time but this is supposedly a top italian international and not a kid plucked from nowhere.

I would seriously rather Spearing for Lucas and the RIGHT footed Darby on the bench for Dossena.

And to say you can coach out of Lucas the giving away stupid freekicks or fouls ?
Well he is in hos second season now and still doin it so we must have terrible coaches.

then thats your choice of wanting them in there - to me - no thanks - Rafa hasnt been proven wrong about any kid yet from the ressies so for me i will trust his judgement on that scale . Im pretty sure he does rate them just doesnt think they are ready yet - If they do have talent the last thing i want them to do is to come off the bench in a massive prem game (and they are all massive now ) and make a mistake that will just ruin them and if that happens rafa then gets critized for bringing on an untried and untested kid instead of a luca or a babel or a dossena who despite what people opinion of them are experienced players in some degrees at this level and have a knowledge of what to expect . From the minute we started really challenging in the prem then im afraid the kids were never going to get a chance - games too important for the risk imo. I cant think of one game in the prem where i would of felt comfy bringing on a totally untried youngster with no experience .

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:00 pm

s@int wrote:Fabregas was free mate

Did they get him under the under 17 ruel then ? thought they paid a fee for him ? same rule that enabled us to get pacheco ?

Ok stand corrected on him but with the others the case still stands . You either are rich and can afford to blow millions and millions on kids and international players like man utd and chelsea or try and buy loads and see what happens

by **Ace Ventura** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:10 pm

GYBS wrote:then thats your choice of wanting them in there - to me - no thanks - Rafa hasnt been proven wrong about any kid yet from the ressies so for me i will trust his judgement on that scale . Im pretty sure he does rate them just doesnt think they are ready yet - If they do have talent the last thing i want them to do is to come off the bench in a massive prem game (and they are all massive now ) and make a mistake that will just ruin them and if that happens rafa then gets critized for bringing on an untried and untested kid instead of a luca or a babel or a dossena who despite what people opinion of them are experienced players in some degrees at this level and have a knowledge of what to expect . From the minute we started really challenging in the prem then im afraid the kids were never going to get a chance - games too important for the risk imo. I cant think of one game in the prem where i would of felt comfy bringing on a totally untried youngster with no experience .

Hasnt been proven wrong ?
What about Paletta ?

Cost a few million him as well didnt he ?

Insua is the only player that has been brought in quite young and done ok....and he cost 1.5 million.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:12 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
GYBS wrote:then thats your choice of wanting them in there - to me - no thanks - Rafa hasnt been proven wrong about any kid yet from the ressies so for me i will trust his judgement on that scale . Im pretty sure he does rate them just doesnt think they are ready yet - If they do have talent the last thing i want them to do is to come off the bench in a massive prem game (and they are all massive now ) and make a mistake that will just ruin them and if that happens rafa then gets critized for bringing on an untried and untested kid instead of a luca or a babel or a dossena who despite what people opinion of them are experienced players in some degrees at this level and have a knowledge of what to expect . From the minute we started really challenging in the prem then im afraid the kids were never going to get a chance - games too important for the risk imo. I cant think of one game in the prem where i would of felt comfy bringing on a totally untried youngster with no experience .

Hasnt been proven wrong ?
What about Paletta ?

Cost a few million him as well didnt he ?

Insua is the only player that has been brought in quite young and done ok....and he cost 1.5 million.

Palletta was bought tried - seen wasnt good enough and then let go .

I guess the reason why Insua has had a chance is because he has shown( druing ressies or training ) to be the only one so far who is good enough to get a chance at the moment .

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:16 pm

West Ham: 6.61
Aston Villa: 6.42
Middlesbrough: 5.26
Wigan: 4.92
Everton: 4.89
Derby: 4.86
Newcastle: 4.76
Tottenham: 4.37
Man Utd: 4.28
Bolton: 4.24
Sunderland: 4.11
Portsmouth: 3.79
Birmingham: 3.74
Reading: 3.68
Chelsea: 3.63
Manchester City: 3.42
Blackburn: 2.68
Fulham: 2.42
Liverpool: 2.34
Arsenal: 0.34

Average number of English players per match last season in the prem. How many home grown players will there be once the likes of Gerrard and Carra have retired? Presumably the .34% for us was Crouch, with Gerrard and Carra being regulars.

by **Ace Ventura** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:21 pm

GYBS wrote:Palletta was bought tried - seen wasnt good enough and then let go .

I guess the reason why Insua has had a chance is because he has shown( druing ressies or training ) to be the only one so far who is good enough to get a chance at the moment .

Re - Paletta, exactly, just like with the first team its more a case of just bringin in loads and loads of players and hoping it works out.

Lets see how many of these kids plucked from the other countries get near the side.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:23 pm

s@int wrote:West Ham: 6.61
Aston Villa: 6.42
Middlesbrough: 5.26
Wigan: 4.92
Everton: 4.89
Derby: 4.86
Newcastle: 4.76
Tottenham: 4.37
Man Utd: 4.28
Bolton: 4.24
Sunderland: 4.11
Portsmouth: 3.79
Birmingham: 3.74
Reading: 3.68
Chelsea: 3.63
Manchester City: 3.42
Blackburn: 2.68
Fulham: 2.42
Liverpool: 2.34
Arsenal: 0.34

Average number of English players per match last season in the prem. How many home grown players will there be once the likes of Gerrard and Carra have retired? Presumably the .34% for us was Crouch, with Gerrard and Carra being regulars.

So now its home grown players not just kids ? Who cares where players come from ? i certainly dont Saint . if they are good enough they will play end of the day .

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:24 pm

GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:West Ham: 6.61
Aston Villa: 6.42
Middlesbrough: 5.26
Wigan: 4.92
Everton: 4.89
Derby: 4.86
Newcastle: 4.76
Tottenham: 4.37
Man Utd: 4.28
Bolton: 4.24
Sunderland: 4.11
Portsmouth: 3.79
Birmingham: 3.74
Reading: 3.68
Chelsea: 3.63
Manchester City: 3.42
Blackburn: 2.68
Fulham: 2.42
Liverpool: 2.34
Arsenal: 0.34

Average number of English players per match last season in the prem. How many home grown players will there be once the likes of Gerrard and Carra have retired? Presumably the .34% for us was Crouch, with Gerrard and Carra being regulars.

So now its home grown players not just kids ? Who cares where players come from ? i certainly dont Saint . if they are good enough they will play end of the day .

No they won't ..... thats the point they are never going to be given the chance, because as you say every game is vital.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:25 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
GYBS wrote:Palletta was bought tried - seen wasnt good enough and then let go .

I guess the reason why Insua has had a chance is because he has shown( druing ressies or training ) to be the only one so far who is good enough to get a chance at the moment .

Re - Paletta, exactly, just like with the first team its more a case of just bringin in loads and loads of players and hoping it works out.

Lets see how many of these kids plucked from the other countries get near the side.

And the ones that are good enough will get the chance and the ones that arent will be shipped off to play lower league football - none of the players that have been shipped off wether it be a local lad like guthrie or peltier or potter have gone on to prove rafa wrong so far .

Some of the kids are only just starting out their careers in football and have a chance to shine - obviously pacheco did in pre season but you could tell he was still very raw same with a few others and nemth is breaking into the hungarian team so there could be a bright future for them with us .

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:28 pm

s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:West Ham: 6.61
Aston Villa: 6.42
Middlesbrough: 5.26
Wigan: 4.92
Everton: 4.89
Derby: 4.86
Newcastle: 4.76
Tottenham: 4.37
Man Utd: 4.28
Bolton: 4.24
Sunderland: 4.11
Portsmouth: 3.79
Birmingham: 3.74
Reading: 3.68
Chelsea: 3.63
Manchester City: 3.42
Blackburn: 2.68
Fulham: 2.42
Liverpool: 2.34
Arsenal: 0.34

Average number of English players per match last season in the prem. How many home grown players will there be once the likes of Gerrard and Carra have retired? Presumably the .34% for us was Crouch, with Gerrard and Carra being regulars.

So now its home grown players not just kids ? Who cares where players come from ? i certainly dont Saint . if they are good enough they will play end of the day .

No they won't ..... thats the point they are never going to be given the chance, because as you say every game is vital.

But if they are good enough they are going to get a chance when the time is deemed right . The lads like gerrard and carra and robbie and owen and macca were stand out players who got a chance when we were not challenging for anything so the risk was less then . If come pre season pacheco or nemeth or spearing or darby come in and are outstanding then they will get more chances .

by **Ace Ventura** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:30 pm

If we swapped Guthrie for Lucas you would see more from Guthrie imo.
If you swapped Warnock for Dossena, a big difference.

If you swapped Sinama Pongolle for Ngog massive difference.

by **parchpea** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:31 pm

I think Benitez has had a fair crack of the whip and if he fails to deliver the title this season then it should be his last. Overall his signings have been average to poor with only Torres and in my opinion the goalkeeper Reina that are genuine top class performers. He struggles to find players at the lower end of the market who can come in and make a genuine difference to the team and really have an impact. At this point of his reign we still rely on Gerrard as much as ever and if hes off the boil we look at Torres, because frankly beyond those two not one of the others can step forward and win us a match. That is really not good enough given the amount of footballers in and out of that club over his time at Anfield. That aside I still beleive that to win this league you have to go an take it, attack teams and make it happen, and Benitez is simply not prepared to take that approach. If you look beyond the top 4 almost every other team will go into games against Liverpool looking not to lose the match and our problem is we go in the same way and this results in too many stalemates. To combat this we need to build a team that can break down defences, we need craft, speed and attack minded players as well as an attack minded coach. Unfortunately managers dont change and though I would be over the moon to see Rafa prove me wrong I just cannot see it happening either this season or beyond.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:33 pm

yet when guthrie went up directly against Lucas guthrie had nothing and lucas ran him ragged and guthrie cant even get into the starting line up at newcastle .

yeah with warnock i think he is better than dossena but he went cause of his numerous injuries and at the time is riise he was up against .

Pongolle had numerous chances with us - he played plenty of games for us and was hot and very cold - was poor at blackburn on loan and then did well at Reacrativo but hasnt exactly done well at atletico .

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:35 pm

GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:West Ham: 6.61
Aston Villa: 6.42
Middlesbrough: 5.26
Wigan: 4.92
Everton: 4.89
Derby: 4.86
Newcastle: 4.76
Tottenham: 4.37
Man Utd: 4.28
Bolton: 4.24
Sunderland: 4.11
Portsmouth: 3.79
Birmingham: 3.74
Reading: 3.68
Chelsea: 3.63
Manchester City: 3.42
Blackburn: 2.68
Fulham: 2.42
Liverpool: 2.34
Arsenal: 0.34

Average number of English players per match last season in the prem. How many home grown players will there be once the likes of Gerrard and Carra have retired? Presumably the .34% for us was Crouch, with Gerrard and Carra being regulars.

So now its home grown players not just kids ? Who cares where players come from ? i certainly dont Saint . if they are good enough they will play end of the day .

No they won't ..... thats the point they are never going to be given the chance, because as you say every game is vital.

But if they are good enough they are going to get a chance when the time is deemed right . The lads like gerrard and carra and robbie and owen and macca were stand out players who got a chance when we were not challenging for anything so the risk was less then . If come pre season pacheco or nemeth or spearing or darby come in and are outstanding then they will get more chances .

Its not about ENGLISH home grown players its about clubs buying cheap foreign players rather than giving youth a chance. The point being most academies are mainly English, most premiership teams are not. This shows that the youth are not getting the chance.

Its much less of a gamble for a manager to bring in a Degan than risk a Darby. Much easier to buy a Dossena than keep a Warnock.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:41 pm

s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:West Ham: 6.61
Aston Villa: 6.42
Middlesbrough: 5.26
Wigan: 4.92
Everton: 4.89
Derby: 4.86
Newcastle: 4.76
Tottenham: 4.37
Man Utd: 4.28
Bolton: 4.24
Sunderland: 4.11
Portsmouth: 3.79
Birmingham: 3.74
Reading: 3.68
Chelsea: 3.63
Manchester City: 3.42
Blackburn: 2.68
Fulham: 2.42
Liverpool: 2.34
Arsenal: 0.34

Average number of English players per match last season in the prem. How many home grown players will there be once the likes of Gerrard and Carra have retired? Presumably the .34% for us was Crouch, with Gerrard and Carra being regulars.

So now its home grown players not just kids ? Who cares where players come from ? i certainly dont Saint . if they are good enough they will play end of the day .

No they won't ..... thats the point they are never going to be given the chance, because as you say every game is vital.

But if they are good enough they are going to get a chance when the time is deemed right . The lads like gerrard and carra and robbie and owen and macca were stand out players who got a chance when we were not challenging for anything so the risk was less then . If come pre season pacheco or nemeth or spearing or darby come in and are outstanding then they will get more chances .

Its not about ENGLISH home grown players its about clubs buying cheap foreign players rather than giving youth a chance. The point being most academies are mainly English, most premiership teams are not. This shows that the youth are not getting the chance.

Its much less of a gamble for a manager to bring in a Degan than risk a Darby. Much easier to buy a Dossena than keep a Warnock.

But clubs up the top half of the table cant give youngsters a chance because the risk is far far too great and when there is good english talent around they go for massive amounts of money . But if there is a youngster who is outstanding then he will stand head and shoulders above everyone else and will get the chance . Would you want to take the risk with youngsters these days knwoing the pressure that comes with it all ? if they fail your out of a job . yes its hard of th ENGLISH kids but thats the way the game is now a days and thses kids have to show they are good enough when they get a chance - be it in a friendly in a CC cup or pre season or in training .

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