Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:52 pm

GYBS wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
Nemeth this season was due to play more action in the first team with Ngog coming in to be more of a back up but nemeth got injured so ngog got more of a chance .

And you know this how?

read it on the Offal last year at some time .

And agree that is a very very good post Muzodziwa.

Yes Ace Darby has impressed for the ressies but is he better than arbeloa for instance ? Im sure i remember everyone or pretty much a lot of people wanting carra at right back .

Yes purosecu he did win back to back la liga titles and a cl - rafa has won two la liga titles and a cl - Rafas liverpool team also went to Rijkaards Barce and outplayed them and beat them over two legs - Rijkaard did it with a galaxy of superstars and i expect even mac claren oculd of done it

No Darby isnt better than Arbeloa - yet, but he should of been at least on the bench this season.
He could come in and not look out of place if we were really struggling imo, the fact that he never got a look in when we had no fit right backs at the time must of really damaged his confidence in his ability to make it at the club.

He is reserve team skipper as well, so not just another up an coming youngster, they must see more in him than that.

Yeah he prob should of had a few more games on the bench but instead of who ? sami ? aurelio ? agger ? . Yes when Arbeloa was injured he may of gone on the bench then but definately not in the first team but even then who do you take off the bench to let him sit there ?

What do people want more ? our best team out there or to blood youngesters in ? a prem game is not the games to do this and prob not even FA cup - CC would of been good but we got knocked out early and the lad did get a chance in the last CL and come pre season he will prob play a fair amount of games to try and prove himself .

What ever people think of buys like dossena and lucas etc - these guys are international players with experience as opposed to young kids with none - I know the argument will be "well how do they get the experience then " - certainly not during this critical stage in the season and prob not at any stage unless there is major inury crisis because the pressure for success is so high now from fans and owners etc .

So basically what you are saying is Rafa has wasted all that money he spent on youth and reserve players because they can never be risked. We may as well shut the academy, sell off the reserves and just concentrate on strengthening the first team.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:54 pm

heimdall wrote:
s@int wrote:I don't wish to p!ss on anyones chips but the only thing that Rafa has done with the academy so far is to block any players from the ACADEMY moving up to Melwood.

Does anyone think Carra, Fowler, Owen, Stevie or Macca would have come through the academy if Rafa was in charge because I don't.

in 5 years not one academy player has established themselves, now that either means that the academy which gave us the players listed above and many more besides has suddendly become completely cr@p as soon as rafa took over or that he doesn't believe in nurturing young talent in the way red nose or Wenger does, either way something stinks and we are wasting a load of money every year, so sorry but that is another reason why I don't trust rafa.

Im sorry but if there were players of that calibre in the reserve team then they would be in the first team - those players stood out by a mile from everyone else and we got damn damn lucky with them .

by **stmichael** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:56 pm

Owen at 17-18 was one of the best I've ever seen, Rooney included.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:57 pm

s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
Nemeth this season was due to play more action in the first team with Ngog coming in to be more of a back up but nemeth got injured so ngog got more of a chance .

And you know this how?

read it on the Offal last year at some time .

And agree that is a very very good post Muzodziwa.

Yes Ace Darby has impressed for the ressies but is he better than arbeloa for instance ? Im sure i remember everyone or pretty much a lot of people wanting carra at right back .

Yes purosecu he did win back to back la liga titles and a cl - rafa has won two la liga titles and a cl - Rafas liverpool team also went to Rijkaards Barce and outplayed them and beat them over two legs - Rijkaard did it with a galaxy of superstars and i expect even mac claren oculd of done it

No Darby isnt better than Arbeloa - yet, but he should of been at least on the bench this season.
He could come in and not look out of place if we were really struggling imo, the fact that he never got a look in when we had no fit right backs at the time must of really damaged his confidence in his ability to make it at the club.

He is reserve team skipper as well, so not just another up an coming youngster, they must see more in him than that.

Yeah he prob should of had a few more games on the bench but instead of who ? sami ? aurelio ? agger ? . Yes when Arbeloa was injured he may of gone on the bench then but definately not in the first team but even then who do you take off the bench to let him sit there ?

What do people want more ? our best team out there or to blood youngesters in ? a prem game is not the games to do this and prob not even FA cup - CC would of been good but we got knocked out early and the lad did get a chance in the last CL and come pre season he will prob play a fair amount of games to try and prove himself .

What ever people think of buys like dossena and lucas etc - these guys are international players with experience as opposed to young kids with none - I know the argument will be "well how do they get the experience then " - certainly not during this critical stage in the season and prob not at any stage unless there is major inury crisis because the pressure for success is so high now from fans and owners etc .

So basically what you are saying is Rafa has wasted all that money he spent on youth and reserve players because they can never be risked. We may as well shut the academy, sell off the reserves and just concentrate on strengthening the first team.

rafa has gone out and bought loads and loads of kids in the hope that he will find a few diamonds - just like wenger has - most of them wont make - thats life in football and the way it goes - yes its money spent on them but its a risk to try and find that one or two or maybe even three that stand out head and shoulders miles above everyone else .

How many academy kids from the top four have come through and shone very brightly since maybe rooney burst onto the scene ?

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:59 pm

stmichael wrote:Owen at 17-18 was one of the best I've ever seen, Rooney included.

yep spot on - same with fowler as well - but do we have anyone like that ? those players stood out like a mile in the ressies . even if we just found one player like that then we would of saved ourselves spending 20 - 40 mil on buying a player like that .

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:04 pm

GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
Nemeth this season was due to play more action in the first team with Ngog coming in to be more of a back up but nemeth got injured so ngog got more of a chance .

And you know this how?

read it on the Offal last year at some time .

And agree that is a very very good post Muzodziwa.

Yes Ace Darby has impressed for the ressies but is he better than arbeloa for instance ? Im sure i remember everyone or pretty much a lot of people wanting carra at right back .

Yes purosecu he did win back to back la liga titles and a cl - rafa has won two la liga titles and a cl - Rafas liverpool team also went to Rijkaards Barce and outplayed them and beat them over two legs - Rijkaard did it with a galaxy of superstars and i expect even mac claren oculd of done it

No Darby isnt better than Arbeloa - yet, but he should of been at least on the bench this season.
He could come in and not look out of place if we were really struggling imo, the fact that he never got a look in when we had no fit right backs at the time must of really damaged his confidence in his ability to make it at the club.

He is reserve team skipper as well, so not just another up an coming youngster, they must see more in him than that.

Yeah he prob should of had a few more games on the bench but instead of who ? sami ? aurelio ? agger ? . Yes when Arbeloa was injured he may of gone on the bench then but definately not in the first team but even then who do you take off the bench to let him sit there ?

What do people want more ? our best team out there or to blood youngesters in ? a prem game is not the games to do this and prob not even FA cup - CC would of been good but we got knocked out early and the lad did get a chance in the last CL and come pre season he will prob play a fair amount of games to try and prove himself .

What ever people think of buys like dossena and lucas etc - these guys are international players with experience as opposed to young kids with none - I know the argument will be "well how do they get the experience then " - certainly not during this critical stage in the season and prob not at any stage unless there is major inury crisis because the pressure for success is so high now from fans and owners etc .

So basically what you are saying is Rafa has wasted all that money he spent on youth and reserve players because they can never be risked. We may as well shut the academy, sell off the reserves and just concentrate on strengthening the first team.

rafa has gone out and bought loads and loads of kids in the hope that he will find a few diamonds - just like wenger has - most of them wont make - thats life in football and the way it goes - yes its money spent on them but its a risk to try and find that one or two or maybe even three that stand out head and shoulders miles above everyone else .

How many academy kids from the top four have come through and shone very brightly since maybe rooney burst onto the scene ?

How are you going to find out if you have any diamonds if you never try them out?

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:11 pm

s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
Nemeth this season was due to play more action in the first team with Ngog coming in to be more of a back up but nemeth got injured so ngog got more of a chance .

And you know this how?

read it on the Offal last year at some time .

And agree that is a very very good post Muzodziwa.

Yes Ace Darby has impressed for the ressies but is he better than arbeloa for instance ? Im sure i remember everyone or pretty much a lot of people wanting carra at right back .

Yes purosecu he did win back to back la liga titles and a cl - rafa has won two la liga titles and a cl - Rafas liverpool team also went to Rijkaards Barce and outplayed them and beat them over two legs - Rijkaard did it with a galaxy of superstars and i expect even mac claren oculd of done it

No Darby isnt better than Arbeloa - yet, but he should of been at least on the bench this season.
He could come in and not look out of place if we were really struggling imo, the fact that he never got a look in when we had no fit right backs at the time must of really damaged his confidence in his ability to make it at the club.

He is reserve team skipper as well, so not just another up an coming youngster, they must see more in him than that.

Yeah he prob should of had a few more games on the bench but instead of who ? sami ? aurelio ? agger ? . Yes when Arbeloa was injured he may of gone on the bench then but definately not in the first team but even then who do you take off the bench to let him sit there ?

What do people want more ? our best team out there or to blood youngesters in ? a prem game is not the games to do this and prob not even FA cup - CC would of been good but we got knocked out early and the lad did get a chance in the last CL and come pre season he will prob play a fair amount of games to try and prove himself .

What ever people think of buys like dossena and lucas etc - these guys are international players with experience as opposed to young kids with none - I know the argument will be "well how do they get the experience then " - certainly not during this critical stage in the season and prob not at any stage unless there is major inury crisis because the pressure for success is so high now from fans and owners etc .

So basically what you are saying is Rafa has wasted all that money he spent on youth and reserve players because they can never be risked. We may as well shut the academy, sell off the reserves and just concentrate on strengthening the first team.

rafa has gone out and bought loads and loads of kids in the hope that he will find a few diamonds - just like wenger has - most of them wont make - thats life in football and the way it goes - yes its money spent on them but its a risk to try and find that one or two or maybe even three that stand out head and shoulders miles above everyone else .

How many academy kids from the top four have come through and shone very brightly since maybe rooney burst onto the scene ?

How are you going to find out if you have any diamonds if you never try them out?

because these diamonds will stand out like a sore thumb in the ressies just like owen and rooney did - people new these guys would be world class before they hit first team . there was no risk with them , they didnt need to be tried out.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:15 pm

GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
Nemeth this season was due to play more action in the first team with Ngog coming in to be more of a back up but nemeth got injured so ngog got more of a chance .

And you know this how?

read it on the Offal last year at some time .

And agree that is a very very good post Muzodziwa.

Yes Ace Darby has impressed for the ressies but is he better than arbeloa for instance ? Im sure i remember everyone or pretty much a lot of people wanting carra at right back .

Yes purosecu he did win back to back la liga titles and a cl - rafa has won two la liga titles and a cl - Rafas liverpool team also went to Rijkaards Barce and outplayed them and beat them over two legs - Rijkaard did it with a galaxy of superstars and i expect even mac claren oculd of done it

No Darby isnt better than Arbeloa - yet, but he should of been at least on the bench this season.
He could come in and not look out of place if we were really struggling imo, the fact that he never got a look in when we had no fit right backs at the time must of really damaged his confidence in his ability to make it at the club.

He is reserve team skipper as well, so not just another up an coming youngster, they must see more in him than that.

Yeah he prob should of had a few more games on the bench but instead of who ? sami ? aurelio ? agger ? . Yes when Arbeloa was injured he may of gone on the bench then but definately not in the first team but even then who do you take off the bench to let him sit there ?

What do people want more ? our best team out there or to blood youngesters in ? a prem game is not the games to do this and prob not even FA cup - CC would of been good but we got knocked out early and the lad did get a chance in the last CL and come pre season he will prob play a fair amount of games to try and prove himself .

What ever people think of buys like dossena and lucas etc - these guys are international players with experience as opposed to young kids with none - I know the argument will be "well how do they get the experience then " - certainly not during this critical stage in the season and prob not at any stage unless there is major inury crisis because the pressure for success is so high now from fans and owners etc .

So basically what you are saying is Rafa has wasted all that money he spent on youth and reserve players because they can never be risked. We may as well shut the academy, sell off the reserves and just concentrate on strengthening the first team.

rafa has gone out and bought loads and loads of kids in the hope that he will find a few diamonds - just like wenger has - most of them wont make - thats life in football and the way it goes - yes its money spent on them but its a risk to try and find that one or two or maybe even three that stand out head and shoulders miles above everyone else .

How many academy kids from the top four have come through and shone very brightly since maybe rooney burst onto the scene ?

How are you going to find out if you have any diamonds if you never try them out?

because these diamonds will stand out like a sore thumb in the ressies just like owen and rooney did - people new these guys would be world class before they hit first team . there was no risk with them , they didnt need to be tried out.

So obviously NONE of our reserves or youth players are diamonds or they would be standing out like sore thimbs, so why keep them on.

Heighway always said "for 99% of players YOU NEVER KNOW until they have had a run of games in the first team." aS he brought through Carra ,Gerrard,Owen etc etc etc I am inclined to go along with him.

I am attempting to break the world record for the tallest pyramid

by **zarababe** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:23 pm

Abolutely not.. we wanted a challenge .. if we win it this season it'll be great

by **muzodziwa** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:24 pm

My take on this is, When Rafa came he thought he was going to have a say in the total running of the football team ie footballing matters. What he found was a different matter altogether, but in this maze of complication he has tried to bring life to our reserve and youth system whilst competing in all fronts of which he has done quite well. The big thing is he has not won the premiership, and bigger than this is the Mancs are about to equal our record. I think this has really altered Benitez original plans and that is why i think he accepted the Keane purchase, it was more of an instant success solution.

Rafa does not trust the onwners, the chief executive officer, and i am sure that the demands for control of all footballing matters arose from this distrust. Guys, Rafa trusts us, the supporters, he trusts his players, and he trusts his coaching team. Rafa is expected to bring results, and especially for our club which is dependent on champions league classification to compete in the transfer market. What he did in this transfer window is to buy cover for positions that he felt needed strengthening, Degen i see as more of a cover purchase and Dossena was meant to be the regular with the injury proneness of Aurelio. Insua has performed well and apart from his absence due to the under 20 championship he has given him chances. It was and is still going to be very difficult for Darby to get a look in if we are competing for the premiership, FA cup, and Champions league. Its a position where we can afford to move Carra to without affecting the balance of the team. I actually think we have the best central defence personel in the league.

I think we could have done better in trying one of our youngsters in the forward department, Nemeth could have done us well I think, but I will understand the reasoning of using Ngog who had a bit of international experience instead. The player that I think could have stepped up is Pacheco, the lad had a brilliant pre-season and was suited to that creative second striker role, but alas we bought Keane.

So I do not think Rafa is a failure when it comes to our reserve and youth team development, its just that he has been suffocated beyond effectiveness.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:25 pm

well rafa has moved a few on and sent a number out on loan to see if they stand out elsewhere where as some of the others have had chances in pre season and will do so again the next pre season to see if they have improved . Its a no win situation when it comes to kids - when do you give them a chance when the risks are so big ? its a risk not many managers going for trophies want to take maybe bar arsenal but they havent won anything for a number of years now since going with the kids . Every kid taggert has played has been bought for a fair amount of money - Nani, Anderson, even the new kids from serbia . Other kids they have get a chance in the CC or go out on loan then not many of them break into the first team thou and end up going to other prem clubs or championship clubs.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:28 pm

another great post mate , have said what im trying to say but a hell of a lot better . keep them coming

by **heimdall** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:43 pm

stmichael wrote:
heimdall wrote:Does anyone think Carra, Fowler, Owen, Stevie or Macca would have come through the academy if Rafa was in charge because I don't.

It's at times like this that I actually wish Stu the Red wasn't banned.

I'd love to see his response to this post.

Did you ban him? then you only have yourself to blame I guess. Shame you didn't have a constructive response to the post but then you are only a mod. :help

by **heimdall** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:45 pm

GYBS wrote:
stmichael wrote:Owen at 17-18 was one of the best I've ever seen, Rooney included.

yep spot on - same with fowler as well - but do we have anyone like that ? those players stood out like a mile in the ressies . even if we just found one player like that then we would of saved ourselves spending 20 - 40 mil on buying a player like that .

yeah much better to play top quality players like Kuyt, Lucas, Dossena and on the rare occasion he is healthy, Degan isn't it. :no

by **heimdall** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:48 pm

GYBS wrote:because these diamonds will stand out like a sore thumb in the ressies just like owen and rooney did - people new these guys would be world class before they hit first team . there was no risk with them , they didnt need to be tried out.

Did Carragher stand out though, what about Gerrard? My point is that rafa doesn't give the youngsters a fair go. Seriously now there must be a youngster who can do a better job than Kuyt on the right, if not then we might as well shut down the academy and save the money. I find it impossible to believe than in 5 years not one player has made the grade!

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