Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:35 pm

Excellent article from Oliver Kay in the times:

Oliver Kay, Football Correspondent
“Though this be madness, yet there is method in ’t.”
— Hamlet, act two, scene two

It is not known whether Rafael Benítez is a fan of Shakespeare — you suspect not — but, amid all the headlines about whether the Liverpool manager is “cracking up”, it is that line from Hamlet, delivered sotto voce by Polonius, that keeps coming to mind.

Benítez may have behaved curiously of late, but to dismiss his actions as those of a swirling, raging madman is to miss the point entirely. Whether it is waging war on Sir Alex Ferguson, dropping Robbie Keane or publicising a contract dispute with the club’s owners, the one thing that Benítez can never be accused of is failing to engage his brain. If his detractors can accuse him of one thing, it is of thinking too much, although Liverpool’s position in the Barclays Premier League table, enriched by yesterday’s 2-0 victory over Chelsea, hardly puts them down as a classic case of paralysis by analysis.

The Liverpool manager is no Hamlet, driven to madness by a desire for revenge. He is no King Lear, stripped of his dignity as he descends slowly into insanity. Benítez would probably prefer to regard himself as King Henry V, a man notable for military genius, a powerful leader whose air of nobility concealed a devilish, scheming side to his character.

Should Liverpool fail to win the Premier League — and even in the heady days of November and December they were never regarded as anything like favourites — many of the inquests will focus on January 9, the day when Benítez “lost the plot”.

Except that he did not. The tirade against Ferguson, accusing him of holding undue influence over referees, was calculated in the extreme. Benítez had armed himself with the relevant statistics and assured himself that he was on safe ground before proceeding to deliver his thoughts in a methodical manner. As these things go, it was as far removed from Kevin Keegan’s infamous “I’d love it” rant as can be imaginable.

Yet the perception of a manager “cracking up” in the heat of the title race is too much for some to resist, particularly when Ferguson is on the other end of the equation. Now that Benítez is off the critical list, however briefly, the spotlight will be shone ever more intensely into the eyeballs of Luiz Felipe Scolari as we — media, supporters, perhaps even his players — look for signs that he, too, has lost the plot. Then there is Arsène Wenger, another who has dared to show signs of fallibility. And that is before we look farther down the league at managers such as Mark Hughes, Tony Adams and Joe Kinnear, the ones really under pressure.

If Benítez had gone mad, he would probably have cause, given the absurdity of life at Liverpool over the two years since the Hicks-Gillett takeover. The co-chairmen sat in the Anfield directors’ box for the first time in 14 months yesterday, but, grown up as ever, insisted on being seated more than a dozen places apart, not exchanging so much as a glance. It has become a basket-case of a club — not quite in the Newcastle United class, but unravelling at such a rate that it has taken quite a feat of management to keep the team on some kind of even keel.

Nor is the handling of Keane the sign of a manager who has taken leave of his senses. Keane has been treated shabbily, left to feel a pawn in a political battle between Benítez and the board, but he is not the victim of muddled thinking. Benítez simply does not view him as a player deserving of a starting place at present or as a player who can change a game as a substitute, so he prefers David Ngog, a raw French teenager of 19, who is perceived to have the pace to stretch opposition defences in the closing stages of matches. Some would cite Keane’s price tag as a reason why he should be on the bench, even if only for the sake of his confidence. Benítez, who spends as long contemplating his substitutes as his starting line-up, would disagree.

If there is a frustration for Liverpool supporters, it is that there is too much method, a tendency to over-complicate things rather than get by on instinct. It was put to Benítez on Friday that Steven Gerrard, more than any player, remains a matchwinner even when seemingly dead on his feet and that, whatever his condition, he would never have been substituted by Ferguson under such circumstances (in the 1-1 draw with Wigan Athletic on Wednesday).

They were valid points. But Benítez never has been a manager like Ferguson and never will be. Asking him to manage by instinct, rather than by analysis, would be like asking Ferguson to do the reverse. You would lose many of the qualities that have made him successful, which, in the case of Benítez, are self-assurance, clarity of thought and tactical genius — the things you associate with madness.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol....511.ece

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:35 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
peewee wrote:so rafas lies are just little business lies, but the owners who are business men don't tell little business lies, their lies must be whoppers

The defence of rafa by some posters on here beggars belief sometimes. If anyone thinks rafa doesn't lie I refer you to any of his post match interviews. he even said once "kuyt is always likely to get you a goal".

I think gillett come across quite well and as he says the club accounts will back him on a few issues

Not like you to have a pop at Kuyt.

Did he bum yer bird or something lerd ?

he tried but missed

by **we all dream...** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:36 pm

access wrote:Hey NOW I understand ...

Joined this 'Liverpool Supporters' site earlier today because I love Liverpool Football Club [thats all] and I f....g care.

I express my concerns about the club whatever they may be like a large number of people on here.

I post my personal feelings and wait for a reply.

THEN wait tick tick tick ... for it an Elite member whoever he may be OR Guru member to take the out of my views or laugh at what I say... or really inteligent ... tell me to F**k off ... OR yes there final reply .... say I am a United Supporter.

I now know why the club is such a f....g mess what comes from the top goes right to the bottom.

Cheers

tick tick tick

waiting...

People emotions are running high mate, i wouldnt worry about it. Im sure you can take people disagreeing with your thoughts and opinions. Calling you a dick is another subject. appens to often but dont lose hop-e or faith with your fellow fans. Most are not like that. You will, most of the time, get some very inctiteful, intellegent, well thought out and well researched posts on here.

by **access** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:44 pm

Hey thanks to big al and emeral red.

I can see from the postings how emotional this all has been getting recently.

I am 51 and in all my years of supporting Liverpool have I ever felt more 'involved' and somehow 'bitter'

I feel like I am riding pillion on a motorbike and the bloke in front goes the :censored:

where he wants and I have not the slightest control ... AND ITS MY F....G BIKE

Thanks for replying

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:44 pm

peewee wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
peewee wrote:so rafas lies are just little business lies, but the owners who are business men don't tell little business lies, their lies must be whoppers

The defence of rafa by some posters on here beggars belief sometimes. If anyone thinks rafa doesn't lie I refer you to any of his post match interviews. he even said once "kuyt is always likely to get you a goal".

I think gillett come across quite well and as he says the club accounts will back him on a few issues

Not like you to have a pop at Kuyt.

Did he bum yer bird or something lerd ?

he tried but missed

by **Ciggy** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:46 pm

access wrote:Hey thanks to big al and emeral red.
I can see from the postings how emotional this all has been getting recently.

I am 51 and in all my years of supporting Liverpool have I ever felt more 'involved' and somehow 'bitter'

Thanks for replying

Welcome aboard Access.

by **big al** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:48 pm

St Michael I dont read the times but I agree with everything that this guy has said. Stop Blaming Rafa look at the madness going on behind the scenes its a fiasco and it could get worse. It will get worse if fans start blaming the wrong people.

by **Ciggy** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:51 pm

From a neutral

http://www.football365.com/john_nicholson/0,17033,8746_4890720,00.html

Let me come clean. I have a touch of what I can only call Rafa love.

The cryptic press conferences, the conspiracies, the paranoia all delivered with a half-smile, with a twinkle of bemusement in the eye and a plethora of downright hard to understand football decisions make him endlessly fascinating, hint at genius and madness and make him compulsive viewing. I love that his decisions are often opaque and highly unusual.

There have been times when he appears to be wilfully damaging Liverpool's title chances, which surely can't be his intentions, he is working to a different set of judgements and values that he simply won't allow to falter.

But that's exactly why Rafa has a genius element about him. He does things his own way, he walks a different path and he walks it on his own if necessary. That is the mark of an original thinker. Everyone else might think he is mad, but he won't be swayed by common opinion, assumption or default thinking. Like all true eccentrics he probably doesn't even see how odd his behaviour can be.

Just because everyone else who has spent 20 million on a striker would play him every game is irrelevant to Rafa. If he bought him and thinks having seen him up close, he's not suitable, he just doesn't play him until he changes. If he doesn't change he'll just sell him. He did. If Liverpool win the league and in fact, even if they finish second, he will have been vindicated. The victory against Chelsea goes some way to doing that already.

Buying a player is always a bit of a lottery because you don't know how he will fit in with the other players both in terms of football and relationship-wise. You don't really know someone until you work with them day in and day out. The wrong thing to do would be to stick with the player just because you paid all that money for him, if indeed he did buy him.

And aside from anything else you have to have a huge pair of :censored:

to make a decision like that. Plenty would crumble, give in and play him. Not Rafa. He doesn't lack bottle, this fella.

Let's not forget that the club's owners have tried to undermine him at times and he's had to deal with more off-field politics than most managers could tolerate. He's kept the side at or near the top all season despite it being up for sale, despite the future being very uncertain.

The Premier League's managers are a mixed bunch of faux academics, a few old school shouters, straight talkers and cod-psychologists, but Rafa is different from all of them.

Liverpool is such a huge club, one of the biggest and most scrutinised on the planet. It's not a job in the 21st century for a regular guy. It's too big, too intense. You need a big personality, strength of mind and purpose to even have a chance. Whatever you do you will be scrutinised in minute detail and you have to stand up to that pressure. It's not a normal job; there is no place to hide. Everyone thinks they know better than you.

His grossly mis-named 'rant' was five minutes of pure theatre, full of wry humour and sarcasm and hugely entertaining. Those who criticise him for it should ask themselves this; do you really want a league full of corporate speak say-nothings? Do you want a man who comes out with little more than strings of clichés? There are enough of them already. You can debate forever if it helps or hinders the player's performance, but for the neutral looking on, we can only applaud and call for an encore.

And yet there are times when it seems as though he is deliberately speaking less than fluent English for the purposes of obfuscation. Sometimes he seems to speak the language really well, other times he struggles with it, which only adds to his cryptic fascination. It is a brilliant ploy to pretend to understand or express less than you really do when speaking a second language but all the same, he is a master of deflecting questions he doesn't want to answer, fending of inquisitions with smiling, slightly suspicious eyes and a little laugh.

I also like that while he is a cerebral man, he is also full of boiling emotion and patrols the touchline on occasions with uncontrolled fury and frustration, unable to sit still, wracked with tension, so much so that he often barely celebrates a goal.

People say his sides are overly defensive and lack creativity but he clearly doesn't care. This is his way. It's how he thinks he can win the league and the Champions League and he just won't be moved from it. He's accused of being stubborn but you can't run a club like Liverpool on passing whims and fancies from wise-after-the-event-give-us-success-now phone-in callers and commentators.

To supporters of less stellar clubs, to hear Liverpool 'fans' berate him for his tactics and his selections of players such as Kuyt even despite the club being 1st or 2nd in the league, seems hugely self-indulgent and grossly lacks perspective. He is right to ignore such noises off.

His critics think that Liverpool would be more successful if they just threw the kitchen sink at every game, but we have no proof of that - it didn't work a few years ago for Newcastle - and Liverpool have hardly been unsuccessful under his guidance.

Trying to break the stranglehold that Manchester United and Arsenal have had on the league for so many years is no small task. He is up against two of the best managers of the modern era with so much momentum and experience behind them. After all, he's 11 years younger than Wenger and nearly 20 younger than Fergie and is surely still learning the art of English management. It's not unreasonable to assume his best, most successful years are still ahead of him in English football.

It is almost totally down to Rafa that as a neutral, I want Liverpool to win the league, if only to seem him stick it to his critics both within and without the club and their ability to beat the other top clubs may yet be the key to them doing that.

But even if he doesn't I hope he sticks around for many years because English football is a better, more entertaining place for his presence and football is all about entertainment on and off the pitch.

And on top of all these things he sports a fine beard that closely resembles the kind of felt-tip beard you get with putting felt-tip onto a brown boiled egg. Add to that the charm a Spanish burr gives to the English language and you have got a downright fantastic manager.

Like Mourinho before him, he might drive you nuts, he might sometimes seem unbearable or just downright odd, but also like Mourinho, you'd bloody well miss him if he wasn't around. Long live the Rafalution.

by **we all dream...** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:04 pm

That's a very very good read...

by **Scottbot** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:13 pm

Ciggy wrote:From a neutral

http://www.football365.com/john_nicholson/0,17033,8746_4890720,00.html

Let me come clean. I have a touch of what I can only call Rafa love.

The cryptic press conferences, the conspiracies, the paranoia all delivered with a half-smile, with a twinkle of bemusement in the eye and a plethora of downright hard to understand football decisions make him endlessly fascinating, hint at genius and madness and make him compulsive viewing. I love that his decisions are often opaque and highly unusual.

There have been times when he appears to be wilfully damaging Liverpool's title chances, which surely can't be his intentions, he is working to a different set of judgements and values that he simply won't allow to falter.

But that's exactly why Rafa has a genius element about him. He does things his own way, he walks a different path and he walks it on his own if necessary. That is the mark of an original thinker. Everyone else might think he is mad, but he won't be swayed by common opinion, assumption or default thinking. Like all true eccentrics he probably doesn't even see how odd his behaviour can be.

Just because everyone else who has spent 20 million on a striker would play him every game is irrelevant to Rafa. If he bought him and thinks having seen him up close, he's not suitable, he just doesn't play him until he changes. If he doesn't change he'll just sell him. He did. If Liverpool win the league and in fact, even if they finish second, he will have been vindicated. The victory against Chelsea goes some way to doing that already.

Buying a player is always a bit of a lottery because you don't know how he will fit in with the other players both in terms of football and relationship-wise. You don't really know someone until you work with them day in and day out. The wrong thing to do would be to stick with the player just because you paid all that money for him, if indeed he did buy him.

And aside from anything else you have to have a huge pair of to make a decision like that. Plenty would crumble, give in and play him. Not Rafa. He doesn't lack bottle, this fella.

Let's not forget that the club's owners have tried to undermine him at times and he's had to deal with more off-field politics than most managers could tolerate. He's kept the side at or near the top all season despite it being up for sale, despite the future being very uncertain.

The Premier League's managers are a mixed bunch of faux academics, a few old school shouters, straight talkers and cod-psychologists, but Rafa is different from all of them.

Liverpool is such a huge club, one of the biggest and most scrutinised on the planet. It's not a job in the 21st century for a regular guy. It's too big, too intense. You need a big personality, strength of mind and purpose to even have a chance. Whatever you do you will be scrutinised in minute detail and you have to stand up to that pressure. It's not a normal job; there is no place to hide. Everyone thinks they know better than you.

His grossly mis-named 'rant' was five minutes of pure theatre, full of wry humour and sarcasm and hugely entertaining. Those who criticise him for it should ask themselves this; do you really want a league full of corporate speak say-nothings? Do you want a man who comes out with little more than strings of clichés? There are enough of them already. You can debate forever if it helps or hinders the player's performance, but for the neutral looking on, we can only applaud and call for an encore.

And yet there are times when it seems as though he is deliberately speaking less than fluent English for the purposes of obfuscation. Sometimes he seems to speak the language really well, other times he struggles with it, which only adds to his cryptic fascination. It is a brilliant ploy to pretend to understand or express less than you really do when speaking a second language but all the same, he is a master of deflecting questions he doesn't want to answer, fending of inquisitions with smiling, slightly suspicious eyes and a little laugh.

I also like that while he is a cerebral man, he is also full of boiling emotion and patrols the touchline on occasions with uncontrolled fury and frustration, unable to sit still, wracked with tension, so much so that he often barely celebrates a goal.

People say his sides are overly defensive and lack creativity but he clearly doesn't care. This is his way. It's how he thinks he can win the league and the Champions League and he just won't be moved from it. He's accused of being stubborn but you can't run a club like Liverpool on passing whims and fancies from wise-after-the-event-give-us-success-now phone-in callers and commentators.

To supporters of less stellar clubs, to hear Liverpool 'fans' berate him for his tactics and his selections of players such as Kuyt even despite the club being 1st or 2nd in the league, seems hugely self-indulgent and grossly lacks perspective. He is right to ignore such noises off.

His critics think that Liverpool would be more successful if they just threw the kitchen sink at every game, but we have no proof of that - it didn't work a few years ago for Newcastle - and Liverpool have hardly been unsuccessful under his guidance.

Trying to break the stranglehold that Manchester United and Arsenal have had on the league for so many years is no small task. He is up against two of the best managers of the modern era with so much momentum and experience behind them. After all, he's 11 years younger than Wenger and nearly 20 younger than Fergie and is surely still learning the art of English management. It's not unreasonable to assume his best, most successful years are still ahead of him in English football.

It is almost totally down to Rafa that as a neutral, I want Liverpool to win the league, if only to seem him stick it to his critics both within and without the club and their ability to beat the other top clubs may yet be the key to them doing that.

But even if he doesn't I hope he sticks around for many years because English football is a better, more entertaining place for his presence and football is all about entertainment on and off the pitch.

And on top of all these things he sports a fine beard that closely resembles the kind of felt-tip beard you get with putting felt-tip onto a brown boiled egg. Add to that the charm a Spanish burr gives to the English language and you have got a downright fantastic manager.

Like Mourinho before him, he might drive you nuts, he might sometimes seem unbearable or just downright odd, but also like Mourinho, you'd bloody well miss him if he wasn't around. Long live the Rafalution.

That is a cracking read, had me a rolled up in a few places as well

by **Scottbot** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:13 pm

Ciggy wrote:And on top of all these things he sports a fine beard that closely resembles the kind of felt-tip beard you get with putting felt-tip onto a brown boiled egg. Add to that the charm a Spanish burr gives to the English language and you have got a downright fantastic manager.

by **lakes10** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:17 pm

ok so heres his take on Keane going.
Benitez told the Reds' website: "Sometimes good players cannot settle in the team. You have to react quickly.

"It is a risk but the situation was not good and we needed to do something."

The Republic of Ireland captain joined Liverpool from Spurs in July in a deal which could have risen to £20.3m, but he failed to establish himself in the team.

Keane, 28, managed only five goals in 19 appearances for the club he supported as a boy and admitted his summer transfer "proved not to be the right move for me".

I say to Rafa

Keane 19 games (if you add the time he got on the field thay would add up to 10 game) 5 goals
Fernando Morientes 41 games and 8 goals.

by **GYBS** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:20 pm

That is a great read .

by **GYBS** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:23 pm

and he got rid of both . he prob gave morientis more time due to the fact he came in jan and needed a pre season with us to get going and didnt get rid in jan again due to the amount of games we had - ie more than we are faced with at the moment .

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:28 pm

lakes10 wrote:I say to Rafa

Keane 19 games (if you add the time he got on the field thay would add up to 10 game) 5 goals
Fernando Morientes 41 games and 8 goals.

No you dont soft lad, you say to members on this forum.

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