Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:27 am

Yes it seems to me really that exactly how much you believe in the manager is pretty much a question for yourself, and I certainly wouldn't be criticising any ardent "trusters". I'd disagree with them, but I woudn't think they are idiots or anything.

Ultimately none of us really know for sure what's happening, it's pretty much all guesswork. Given that, I've tried to form my opinions on what are pretty much known facts, things I can see with my own eyes. As I've said all the way through the thread though, each person comes to their own conclusions. No doubt within two years or so I'll either look like an idiot or a prophet. It won't of course make any difference to rafa, the players or to anyone else what I think (apart from my little crew of stalkers who do allow themselves to get hot under the collar if somebody expresses an opinion), but I thought it was best if I put it out there anyway.

FWIW I think Rafa has had plenty of time and plenty of money. Some would say the return we have had is ample, I don't think it is. Were it not for the fact (or at least I think it's a fact anyway) that Man Utd absolutely fell out of the blocks, Chelsea are poor and Arsenal rebuilding we wouldn't be as close as we are. The fact that Aston Villa are within touching distance of the summit shows how hard it has been to get there so far, but now the Mancs are hitting form we will see fairly quickly who can last the pace and who can't.

The bit that irks me is we had so many chances to take advantage while the Mancs were fecking around. We didn't take them, and now we are more than likely going to pay the price. My gut feeling is though, if we couldn't win the league this season with a start and two of our three rivals severely weakened, we'll never win it under Rafa. To be honest, I think we'll be more than two wins back as well. I think the gap will be 7-8 points.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:38 am

bigmick wrote:Yes it seems to me really that exactly how much you believe in the manager is pretty much a question for yourself, and I certainly wouldn't be criticising any ardent "trusters". I'd disagree with them, but I woudn't think they are idiots or anything.

Ultimately none of us really know for sure what's happening, it's pretty much all guesswork. Given that, I've tried to form my opinions on what are pretty much known facts, things I can see with my own eyes. As I've said all the way through the thread though, each person comes to their own conclusions. No doubt within two years or so I'll either look like an idiot or a prophet. It won't of course make any difference to rafa, the players or to anyone else what I think (apart from my little crew of stalkers who do allow themselves to get hot under the collar if somebody expresses an opinion), but I thought it was best if I put it out there anyway.

FWIW I think Rafa has had plenty of time and plenty of money. Some would say the return we have had is ample, I don't think it is. Were it not for the fact (or at least I think it's a fact anyway) that Man Utd absolutely fell out of the blocks, Chelsea are poor and Arsenal rebuilding we wouldn't be as close as we are. The fact that Aston Villa are within touching distance of the summit shows how hard it has been to get there so far, but now the Mancs are hitting form we will see fairly quickly who can last the pace and who can't.

The bit that irks me is we had so many chances to take advantage while the Mancs were fecking around. We didn't take them, and now we are more than likely going to pay the price. My gut feeling is though, if we couldn't win the league this season with a start and two of our three rivals severely weakened, we'll never win it under Rafa. To be honest, I think we'll be more than two wins back as well. I think the gap will be 7-8 points.

That post just about sums up my fears and beliefs too Mick. The point is everyone has their own beliefs as to what has/is going on and just like with the DIC/"anyone else who can afford us" scenario its up to everyone to make their own mind up.

by **taff** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:13 am

bigmick wrote:Ultimately none of us really know for sure what's happening, it's pretty much all guesswork. Given that, I've tried to form my opinions on what are pretty much known facts, things I can see with my own eyes. As I've said all the way through the thread though, each person comes to their own conclusions.

Ok. The topic is a great one and I like your post but as you are happy to rip things apart you unfortunately have to accept it back as well but not in an angry stalking way

So none of us know what is happening but you base your views on facts. I cant see how that makes sense. I dont know what is going on but my ASSUMPTION is that Keane is not performing to Rafas standard.

I can also assume that I am more optimistic than you but the facts are that he took a team who were off the mark in the premiership and not a force in the champions league and have made us compete for the league as its not over now as far as Im aware and we are feared in Europe.

Is it a fact that the CL is easy. Why was the bestest manager ever obsessed by it then as he was dominating the Premier League.

Its a fact that the special ones relationship with the club was over when the board started to control transfers, which as far as Im aware ended badly. Alex and Wenger seem to have the control that our manager wants.

It is unfortunately a fact that in any slump or blip that SG and Carra are fed up with rafa according to rumours. None of which are started when we do well. Surely its the same Rafa. Or even the Rafa that they have publicly praised. Now that might be just something players say but surely it works both ways then and we should ignore everything that players just say.

It is a fact that Rafa did sign the players he signed whether succesful or a failure and he has to be judged on that. Nobody can defend the failures.

Talking of Carra and SG it is also a fact that they have improved under Rafa. Carra was seen as being surplus when Rafa took over so I assume that his renaissance is down to Rafa. SG on the other hand seems to be a force of nature. A weird fact mind you is while we pander to him a lot of leading coaches seem to think that Rafa has improved him. Still look at the huge success that Houllier and Sven had with the best player of all time. But in SG's case I think he would have become what he is under anybody but who knows for real eh.

My conclusions to this is we are at a pivotal time where IMO we have the right manager who has courage of his convictions and wants to succeed. Who has also annoyed me and frustrated me. Who has delighted me. Who has had the courage to fight for the club when he is accused of being on an ego trip. Who has improved the team, given us the CL and taken us to a genuine title fight.

I back him when he does well and I will back him when he doesnt

by **bigmick** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:34 am

Good post Taff, and fair play to you mate

. Where I talked about "none of us really know what's going on" I was referring to behind the scenes stuff. People often tell me that Rafa's holding the club together, he's doing the job with his hands tied behind his back, he can't buy his first choice players, the owners don't speak to him, the aademy runs independent of him and all that stuff. My point is, the people who are telling me that don't know any more than I do. Those same people who spent three seasons telling me rotation from game one was a great idea, modern football and all that stuff.

No, I prefer not to listen to rumours which are put about by pet journalists, and judge the manager on what I can see. I can see that we've spent a huge amount of money, I can see that he's had five seasons, and I can see the way he is conducting himself as of now. That is what I base my judgement on Taff, simple really.

Now I've already accepted that I am in a minority of probably one or two. That's Ok though, it's not the first time. Once I had made my mind up, I was very keen to put it on the boards before we played Chelsea. Two reasons for that. One, I'm a bit superstitious being a bit of a serial punter and felt we had a much better chance of winning the game once I'd posted my "Rafa out" topic. Infact forget Rafa and the players, I won that game for us this morning

. And yes I was up at 3 to watch it, and I jumped out of me chair and old Eff was barking like a mad thing when Torres scored. Fell out with the Mrs obviously for waking everyone up but feck it, it was a great goal. Never believe that little lie that my stalker crew put about, that I want us to lose. That's the biggest insult I ever get on here, the only one that irks me really.

Second reason I wanted to put it out there was that I knew that if we didn't win and then I said it, I'd get knee jerker and all that old sh!t. Well I'm putting it out there and we're two points off the top of the league. We'd all agree we have a chance, or at least we should. My belief is though, that whenever we have a chance we will somehow find a way to shoot ourselves in the foot with a bit of controversy, a ridiculous selection, silly substitutions, not going all out for wins, falling out with authorities, falling out with players, trying to secure a contract in the middle of the race etc. Just my opinion, but there it is.

by **Bam** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:16 am

I didnt use the right word Mick when I said Knee-Jerk, maybe a more apt word or two would of been a 'Bolt out of the Blue'.

And although I've had and still do have many doubts about Rafa over his reign (deep down maybe realising he isnt the man to cut the mustard). I believe he has shown improvement this year, the table doesnt lie, we're 8 points better off. In a better position and I reckon it would be a complete waste of time getting rid now considering the league isnt out of reach.

Funnily enough at the begining of the season and with the majority of posters having faith in him, as long as he made a fist of it this season. I somehow new a topic or a person would call time on him by now, a person which in this case is you Mick. Somebody who was happy to give him one last decent slog at the title (like myself) before coming to any sort of conclusion as to whether he should be here or gone for the next season.

Now maybe it would of been wise to put in one of your famous disclaimers which should of read ..........

I'M HAPPY FOR RAFA TO STAY IN CHARGE ONE LAST SEASON IF HE MAKES A FIST OF IT, BUT IF HE IS GIVEN A HEAD START BY OUR MAIN RIVALS. TO WHICH BY DECEMBER WE TOP THE LEAGUE THEN COME JANUARY WE HIT A DIP ALLOW THE MANCS BACK IN IT, PLUS ONTOP OF THAT HIS ATTITUDE TO ROBBIE KEANE HAS TO BE ADEQUATE AND GENTLEMANLY, AND HE DOEST USE BAGUE IN PRESS CONFERANCES TO BAIT HIM A CONTRACT AND ALL THE SINISTER BEHIND THE SCENES STUFF. HE MUST GO ! EVEN IF WE ARE STILL IN THE MIX.

I'm not starting a flamewar Mick, its not personal mate but you do seemed to of moved the goal posts on Rafa a bit. Which I find a little staggering myself, considering I'm not one of Rafa's biggest 'Love-ins' around here like some are. But like i said before, my own personel opinion was 'he could of gone last season for all I cared'. I didnt see an improvement in the league, then came round to the idea in Summer and persuaded by some good posters on here that he at least deserved another year and his fith to be truly judged upon.

I dont really give one IOTA whether the league is percieived easier to win this year, whether our title rivals have given us a head start. We're still in the mix, which is what I expected at least and what you proclaimmed needed to happen as you cannot leapfrog from fourth spot to first.
Obviously what doesnt bode well for Rafa is that he hasnt been able to capitalise on the lead which was given by United and earned by us. So how on earth can he bring us the title next year say, if the league is in all probabilty going to be that much harder and no 'handouts' given by United and Chelsea you'll say ?

Which is fair enough,

But maybe you could answer that question with your very own way of thinking that if a team and a manager just as importantly cannot be expected to leapfrog from fourth to first. Believeing the team need to gain experiance and be able to handle the added pressure of being in a dog fight. Then is it not possible for Rafa himself to be granted the same experiance - the learning curve, the press related, mind games, pressure into the fray ?

For me a "Doom n Gloomer' a "Usual suspect" a 'C*ntw....' a fan who has almost learned to live with the eccentric, frustrating, perplexing decisons Rafa does and will no doubt continue to do so, am quite firmly of the thought his position is more in the balance or even contemplating him another two year contract. Than already of the conclusion he has to go at the end of the season.

by **bigmick** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:45 am

Once again a well thought out post mate, and some interesting questions. Look, on the goalpost moving thing I hold my hands up. I said at the start of the season that if we challenged (which we have and we are) that he would deserve another go. Equally, if he put the cherry on top of the icing on the cake and dropped the ridiculousness that was mass rotation from game one, I'd be bang in his corner.

As recently as two months ago I advocated giving him another contract, so to ask how comes I've suddently changed my mind is a fair question. There isn't one defining thing which I can say, "that's it" to be honest. I guess it's just that overall I've watched how he's carried on once we've hit the front. I've seen the team selections slowly begining to become more and more stylie (I actually smelt that one coming about three or four weeks ago, I can sort of see a little glint in his eye these days) and I've seen the substitutions become ever more silly. The way the whole thing has been handled looks increasingly like the "ooh aren't I clever" style of management which he occasionally reverts to and which does my head in.

It's like the rant. You rant when your five points off the top and you want to unsettle the leaders. You don't rant when your clear. When your clear you keep your nut down and stay out of the papers, let the others worry about you. What did Ferguson do in the aftermath of the rant, just let it pass as the damage had been done.

And the Keane situation has just beggared belief. How a manager of a team which is leading the Premiership can choose to jeapordise the teams chances like that, for whatever reason he's doing it, I think it is simply unbeleiveable. Talking about contracts and things is bad enough, but the Keane thing has been an absolute disgrace. I'm not saying either that Keane is worth 20 million quid, nor am I saying we should be playing him regularly. What I am saying though, when he is one of only two credible strikers we've got, and he is fit, he absolutely MUST figure on the bench. What on Earth we'd have done if Torres got injured God only knows. It's this type of pig headedness that I can't abide, and it's symptomatic of what has made me give up on the manager. Anyone whoi is sufficiently self centred to put their own interests ahead of the team, has no place at the club. IMHO of course.

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:36 am

bigmick wrote:I know I'm going to come under attack on this thread so I'll keep the topic starter short. It'll give me something to come back with.

Broadly, I think we've improved as a team. But in five seasons, given the investment, I don't think it's enough. I mentioned on another thread about the squad:

Goalkeeper-We have a top drawer keeper (bought by Rafa). Charitably, we have a reasonable replacement.

Right back-After five years our best one is Alvarro Arbeloa. Solid enough player without being anywhere near absolute top class, our back up is non existent.

Left back-Our best one is Fabio Aurelio. Decent player once again without being a World beater (when fit), our back up is a 19 year old kid.

Centre Halves-we still have the two which were left for Rafa when he arrived. One of those is still the best we've got, and the other will need replacing soon. We have two which Rafa has brought in who are both good players, without actually being right at the very top of what there is in the Premiership.
Right midfielder-Being totally honest we haven't got one.

Left midfielder-We have Albert Riera who is a decent player.If he is unavailable, we haven't got anyone else.

Central midfielders-We have three top class ones, and a reasonable stop gap.

Strikers-We have one top class one, one who is good but who never gets selected, and nobody else.

The squad is then topped up with a succession of players who aren't in any way shape or form good enough. The progression from say Finnan to Arbeloa after five seasons isn't enough. Neither is it enough to progress from John Arne Riise of five seasons ago to Fabio Aurelio. Ditto Sami Hyppia to Martin Skrtel. There isn't anyone, not a single player waiting in the wings who you watch and think, "feck me he's going to be some player this lad".

After five seasons of Rafa Benitez, the squad needs major work. My guess is it needs major money, time effort and skill. Much more than he has shown so far. He has spent 150 million quid and I think it's reasonable to expect more for our money. His recent conduct has been at best eccentric, and at worst an absolute disgrace.

In my humble opinion, at the end of the season we should get rid.

I agree completely regarding hte squad.

We have a first XI that can compete with anyone, after that it looks grim.

I do however think that the succession of poor signings are more to do with the budget than anything else. When he has spent big, he has usually got it spot on.

by **GYBS** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:50 am

You keep mentioning the treatment of keane being a factor in derailing oour challenge yet when he has played bar a coupl eof games he hasnt done enough mate and a coupl eof our most impressive performances ie chelsea and newcastle lately have all occured without keane playing and also earlier in the season we won games once keane had been taken off ? yeah he could be on the bench as an option but then again when has he come off and made an impact ? and maybe just maybe not playing keane or putting him on the bench was in the interests of the club and not in the interests of the player ?

by **kazza** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:07 pm

I thought that the team looked more relaxed against Chelsea, like a weight was lifted of their mind. I disagree with Mick about the game where I knew there would only be one winner, I mean in spite of the red card we were all over them.

Raffa will sign the new contract with his terms so he will be here a while and will NOW be responsible for the transfers. This is a good thing and will settle the team in this important time. I also still think we will win the title this year as we will step up a gear as long as we avoid injuries.

Walk on Raffa walk on :buttrock

by **taff** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:14 pm

Regarding Keane yesterday. The general consensus among pundits was that Benayoun gave us more guile and Ngog gave pace as defenders tired. Hansen in the papers today says that although some blame Benitez the harsh fact is he has not performed.

Again I state I like Keane, he is honest and comes across as a good player and a good person BUT we are playing in a very harsh league with no room for sentiment and i am sentimental to some players and am glad we have a manger who has to make these decisions as it would break my heart.

And Bigmick. Of course we all want the club to succeed unless of course you are a Man Utd fan on a WUM and have been deep undercover for years like Donnie Brasco

. Now I await those stalkers of yours to accuse you of this even though I am jesting and its all made up

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:20 pm

GYBS wrote:You keep mentioning the treatment of keane being a factor in derailing oour challenge yet when he has played bar a coupl eof games he hasnt done enough mate and a coupl eof our most impressive performances ie chelsea and newcastle lately have all occured without keane playing and also earlier in the season we won games once keane had been taken off ? yeah he could be on the bench as an option but then again when has he come off and made an impact ? and maybe just maybe not playing keane or putting him on the bench was in the interests of the club and not in the interests of the player ?

Against Man city ? The problem hasn't been Keane not making an impact from the bench (5) but him being substituted in so many games (18)

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:31 pm

s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:You keep mentioning the treatment of keane being a factor in derailing oour challenge yet when he has played bar a coupl eof games he hasnt done enough mate and a coupl eof our most impressive performances ie chelsea and newcastle lately have all occured without keane playing and also earlier in the season we won games once keane had been taken off ? yeah he could be on the bench as an option but then again when has he come off and made an impact ? and maybe just maybe not playing keane or putting him on the bench was in the interests of the club and not in the interests of the player ?

Against Man city ? The problem hasn't been Keane not making an impact from the bench (5) but him being substituted in so many games (18)

No, the problem has been he has not scored in those games in which he took part.

If he had scored then I guarantee:

1) He would not have looked like someone had just bummed his bird when his number went up

2) We would be in a better league position

3) No one would be talking about him going, staying leaving etc

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:17 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:You keep mentioning the treatment of keane being a factor in derailing oour challenge yet when he has played bar a coupl eof games he hasnt done enough mate and a coupl eof our most impressive performances ie chelsea and newcastle lately have all occured without keane playing and also earlier in the season we won games once keane had been taken off ? yeah he could be on the bench as an option but then again when has he come off and made an impact ? and maybe just maybe not playing keane or putting him on the bench was in the interests of the club and not in the interests of the player ?

Against Man city ? The problem hasn't been Keane not making an impact from the bench (5) but him being substituted in so many games (18)

No, the problem has been he has not scored in those games in which he took part.

If he had scored then I guarantee:

1) He would not have looked like someone had just bummed his bird when his number went up

2) We would be in a better league position

3) No one would be talking about him going, staying leaving etc

Kuyt ? How many more goals did he score than Keane when he was played as a striker. How many games was he subbed? Was he shoved off ?

I have always said Keane wasn't what Liverpool wanted or needed, but I do feel that he hasn't been given a fair crack of the whip

by **Zidane** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:27 pm

SAMI HYYPIA is to be included on Liverpool’s Champions League squad list.

The Finnish international will be part of the 25-man pool of players for the knockout stages of the competition despite reports at the weekend suggesting otherwise.

Rafa Benitez has been examining his options before deciding on which players will feature and Hyypia takes his place at the expense of right back Philipp Degen.

News of his inclusion will come as a massive boost to Liverpool’s veteran centre back who had been omitted from the squad list for the group stages.

Several clubs have been monitoring Hyypia’s situation at Anfield with North East giants Newcastle and Sunderland both waiting in the wings for any indication that the 35-year-old might not be part of Benitez’s plans.

But the Reds boss has drawn a line under any speculation by putting Hyypia on the list along with fellow centre backs Jamie Carragher, Martin Skrtel and Daniel Agger.

Meanwhile, Skrtel insists there is still everything to fight for in this season’s title race after Liverpool moved up to second place in the Premier League thanks to yesterday’s 2-0 win over Chelsea at Anfield.

I'm sure this will cheer some up.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:28 pm

Certainly cheered me up mate. I was fuming when I read he was being excluded.

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