Liverpool FC Forum

by **tubby** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:53 pm

I think most are split on what to think Sabre but im sure the majoraty are behind Rafa.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:58 pm

roberto green wrote:
Cool Hand Luke wrote:If we beat Chelsea, sell Keane getting most our money back, get in at least one striker but preferably two (Henrik Larson and Eidur Gudjohnsen on loan?) and Rafa signs a new contract on terms he and the club are happy with, it might not look so bad Monday evening.

Just thought I’d throw it in there.

That's a lot to fit in mate as well as being a bit too optimistic

Look at the facts:

- We play Chelsea at home today. We beat them at Stamford Bridge and we are good enought to beat them at Anfield. Arsenal, Aston Villa and Everton all dropped points yesterday and we can take 3 from Chelsea today. By this evening we could be 2 points behind 1st place Man Utd and 3 points ahead of 3rd placed Chelsea.

- It looks as though Keane is on his way out of the club before 5pm on Monday and a £15 million price is being talked about.

- If Keane goes surely we are going to bring in at least one striker or are we going to rely on N’Gog and Kuyt?

- The owners are in town to sort out Rafa’s contract and Hicks has already said he is confident Rafa will sign once the issues have been resolved.

I’m not saying all these things will happen but all are very realistic and it is going to be an interesting 48 hours.

by **tubby** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:00 pm

I think you are taking Cheslea a bit lightly. Yes we beat them at Stamford bridge but mentally the squad was in a different frame of mind. It was really after that game that we started to throw away silly points starting at Spurs. Having said that we tend to play well against the big teams so I hope you are right. And no one is actually saying Keane is on his way out. Rafa has said ok he didnt sanction the signing but he also said the other day only he has 3 months to prove himself.

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:07 pm

lakes10 wrote:
GYBS wrote:im sorry lakes but if the british youngsters were good enough they would play . Not many teams have british youngsters coming thru the ranks . Even man utd just spent another 16 odd mil on serbians . Chelsea have none and arsenal have one plus one they have bought . No manager will say no to playing a kid just because he is british . The simple hard fact is they arent good enough , the youngsters from abroad get coached and trained far better as a kid and 9 times out of ten are technically better than their english counterpart . Plus if more kids actually went out for a kick about as opposed to eating and playin fifa or whatever then maybe more british talent would come thru .

most of the good ones dont come to us now, they know that they have a better chance with other teams......bring back the old days. I hate all this money in football.

GYBS waffling again.

are you suggesting that by some freak of nature there are no good english youth players available?

so the likes of gerrard, fowler, macmanaman, carra, owen were all just freaks, were we just lucky that these players came through the ranks? Thats bollox, I am sure there are players of their potential out there but they certainly are not coming through our system any more. every one of those I mention were picked up as schoolboys, the city is full of footballing talent so whats happening? why are they not coming through. the removal of heighway was a mistake for a start.

you say the foreign youngsters are coached better than the british youngsters, bollox again, apart from torres name me one player we have better than the the 5 names i mention above

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:09 pm

Sabre wrote:Bigmick, about your post, it was just about time you expressed explicitly what your posts implied in the last year and a half. IMHO, that opinion should be said naturally, and accepted naturally. I admit though that sometimes it wasn't easy to say that opinion, because issues about loyalty were mixed. But it was more than obvious you had that opinion within you.

The only "stick" I'll give you is that you tend as of late to open a new thread to state your opinion when there are other threads covering the same topic. Your opinion won't be read with less attention if you decide to post it in an already opened thread (bar the match threads which are difficult to follow). It's not a major trouble for me either, but I think it's good that regular members like yourself show the new members not to open a new thread if the topic is already covered.

As you know I disagree your opinion and my concerns are summed up by Fivecup's excellent post. I don't have new arguments that the ones already stated dozens of times.

I would have though it was obvious what micks stance was without needing his opening post in here

by **Madmax** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:15 pm

peewee wrote:
lakes10 wrote:
GYBS wrote:Plus if more kids actually went out for a kick about as opposed to eating and playin fifa or whatever then maybe more british talent would come thru .

thats just talking shyte mate

by **roberto green** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:16 pm

Cool Hand Luke wrote:
roberto green wrote:
Cool Hand Luke wrote:If we beat Chelsea, sell Keane getting most our money back, get in at least one striker but preferably two (Henrik Larson and Eidur Gudjohnsen on loan?) and Rafa signs a new contract on terms he and the club are happy with, it might not look so bad Monday evening.

Just thought I’d throw it in there.

That's a lot to fit in mate as well as being a bit too optimistic

Look at the facts:

- We play Chelsea at home today. We beat them at Stamford Bridge and we are good enought to beat them at Anfield. Arsenal, Aston Villa and Everton all dropped points yesterday and we can take 3 from Chelsea today. By this evening we could be 2 points behind 1st place Man Utd and 3 points ahead of 3rd placed Chelsea.

- It looks as though Keane is on his way out of the club before 5pm on Monday and a £15 million price is being talked about.

- If Keane goes surely we are going to bring in at least one striker or are we going to rely on N’Gog and Kuyt?

- The owners are in town to sort out Rafa’s contract and Hicks has already said he is confident Rafa will sign once the issues have been resolved.

I’m not saying all these things will happen but all are very realistic and it is going to be an interesting 48 hours.

Yeah can see you points.

I hope all of them do come true.

Maybe we can get Lionel Messi too.

by **Madmax** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:20 pm

Personally i think reason why british youth are put in the shade and overtaken by overseas players is because of foreign managers. You see it in the premiership wenger loves his french whilst rafa loves his spanish. Not saying all foreign managers are like that.
Could be because of thier background, they are used to the talent they have seen in their native countries or where ever.
Also IMO i feel alot of the britsh players are over valued. Asking for 18 mill of barry?? I dont think so... Maybe thats why foreign manager try and search for a player thats cheaper and of better quality.

by **roberto green** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:24 pm

Madmax wrote:Personally i think reason why british youth are put in the shade and overtaken but overseas players is because of foreign managers. You see it in the premiership wenger loves his french whilst rafa loves his spanish. Not saying all foreign managers are like that.
Could be because of thier background, they are used to the talent they have seen in their native countries or where ever.
Also IMO i feel alot of the britsh players are over valued. Asking for 18 mill of barry?? I dont think so... Maybe thats why foreign manager try and search for a player thats cheaper and of better quality.

spot on mate

:nod

by **Sabre** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:37 pm

I would have though it was obvious what micks stance was without needing his opening post in here

Yes it was. He's been consistent on his criticism and he has explained it. But 2 or 3 months ago I was reading all that criticism, and thus, I didn't understand how he was ok with the idea of giving Rafa a new contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he did.

Now, the conclussion he has reached of getting rid of the manager is consistent with his criticism. I mean, if you don't trust the methods, you don't agree team selections, and you don't see his a good tactician, if you don't think we've progressed, if you also dislike the signing up policy, it's normal you don't want the manager here. And now he has said so explicitly.

by **Rorschach26** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:49 pm

bigmick wrote:I know I'm going to come under attack on this thread so I'll keep the topic starter short. It'll give me something to come back with.

Broadly, I think we've improved as a team. But in five seasons, given the investment, I don't think it's enough. I mentioned on another thread about the squad:

Goalkeeper-We have a top drawer keeper (bought by Rafa). Charitably, we have a reasonable replacement.

Right back-After five years our best one is Alvarro Arbeloa. Solid enough player without being anywhere near absolute top class, our back up is non existent.

Left back-Our best one is Fabio Aurelio. Decent player once again without being a World beater (when fit), our back up is a 19 year old kid.

Centre Halves-we still have the two which were left for Rafa when he arrived. One of those is still the best we've got, and the other will need replacing soon. We have two which Rafa has brought in who are both good players, without actually being right at the very top of what there is in the Premiership.
Right midfielder-Being totally honest we haven't got one.

Left midfielder-We have Albert Riera who is a decent player.If he is unavailable, we haven't got anyone else.

Central midfielders-We have three top class ones, and a reasonable stop gap.

Strikers-We have one top class one, one who is good but who never gets selected, and nobody else.

The squad is then topped up with a succession of players who aren't in any way shape or form good enough. The progression from say Finnan to Arbeloa after five seasons isn't enough. Neither is it enough to progress from John Arne Riise of five seasons ago to Fabio Aurelio. Ditto Sami Hyppia to Martin Skrtel. There isn't anyone, not a single player waiting in the wings who you watch and think, "feck me he's going to be some player this lad".

After five seasons of Rafa Benitez, the squad needs major work. My guess is it needs major money, time effort and skill. Much more than he has shown so far. He has spent 150 million quid and I think it's reasonable to expect more for our money. His recent conduct has been at best eccentric, and at worst an absolute disgrace.

In my humble opinion, at the end of the season we should get rid.

Maybe this ha something to do with the fact we have 2 sell players in order 2 make the money 2 bring others in

a problem United & Chelsea dont have

its like some people on here continue 2 ignore this fact

strange

by **Rorschach26** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:57 pm

so lets get this straight weve spent 150 million over 5 years so thats 30 mill a year less then both United & Chelsea have spent in that period of time ( who both had bigger & better squads then us anyway) not 2 mention what ive just brought up in my last post about us havin 2 sell 2 bring in

besides a recent slip most people would argue were the 3rd possible the 2nd best team in the prem at the moment were a force in europe

but because were not better then a team who constantly spend 20-30 million on player (squad player now) over the last 7 years people think its money wasted?

Baffling at time really really is

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:06 pm

bigmick wrote:I know I'm going to come under attack on this thread so I'll keep the topic starter short. It'll give me something to come back with.

Broadly, I think we've improved as a team. But in five seasons, given the investment, I don't think it's enough. I mentioned on another thread about the squad:

Goalkeeper-We have a top drawer keeper (bought by Rafa). Charitably, we have a reasonable replacement.

Right back-After five years our best one is Alvarro Arbeloa. Solid enough player without being anywhere near absolute top class, our back up is non existent.

Left back-Our best one is Fabio Aurelio. Decent player once again without being a World beater (when fit), our back up is a 19 year old kid.

Centre Halves-we still have the two which were left for Rafa when he arrived. One of those is still the best we've got, and the other will need replacing soon. We have two which Rafa has brought in who are both good players, without actually being right at the very top of what there is in the Premiership.
Right midfielder-Being totally honest we haven't got one.

Left midfielder-We have Albert Riera who is a decent player.If he is unavailable, we haven't got anyone else.

Central midfielders-We have three top class ones, and a reasonable stop gap.

Strikers-We have one top class one, one who is good but who never gets selected, and nobody else.

The squad is then topped up with a succession of players who aren't in any way shape or form good enough. The progression from say Finnan to Arbeloa after five seasons isn't enough. Neither is it enough to progress from John Arne Riise of five seasons ago to Fabio Aurelio. Ditto Sami Hyppia to Martin Skrtel. There isn't anyone, not a single player waiting in the wings who you watch and think, "feck me he's going to be some player this lad".

After five seasons of Rafa Benitez, the squad needs major work. My guess is it needs major money, time effort and skill. Much more than he has shown so far. He has spent 150 million quid and I think it's reasonable to expect more for our money. His recent conduct has been at best eccentric, and at worst an absolute disgrace.

In my humble opinion, at the end of the season we should get rid.

I broadly agree with the FACTS that you have presented. There is no getting away from the fact that our squad has not made enough progress in the past 5 seasons and that for every 1 million spent we have wasted another 1 million.

If I was a billionaire and bought the club this afternoon would offering Rafa a new contract be my top priority – NO.

Would I look at the squad and the money spent over the past 5 years and be satisfied at where we are now – NO.

Would I be happy that there is not a single player in the first team squad that has made the step up from the reserves/youth team in the past 5 years – NO

Would I demand all sides of the story and explanations on why we have failed on so many fronts in the past 5 years – YES

Looking from the outside in the club needs an awful lot of change and that may well include the manager.

by **Sabre** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:08 pm

Rorschach, perhaps people do see the good things (Mascherano, Alonso, Reina, Istambul) but quite simply thinks with another manager we could do better.

John Benjamin Toshack the other day wrote in a local paper that if Rafa fails to win something this season, that would be 3 seasons without winning anything remarkable, and in a top club that might mean changes.

And you know what? that's often true.

So you can't be surprised people at some point want a change, it's a natural thing in a football fan. However, I'm not in that group, I think Liverpool are not decaying but building up and strenghtening, Ferguson talks about us because we're up there to be their major enemies, I see progress. And as long as I see progress and not decay I preffer to keep the manager.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:22 pm

Rafa's had me worried for some time now, if I'm honest. The first problem was his attempt to offload Alonso this summer. Whatever you want to say about Xabi's form in the past 18 months, he's still one of our top players and clubs that challenge for honours don't usually try and get rid of their top players unless they have someone truly exceptional ready to step into the void (and Gareth Barry, good as he is, does not fit the bill). My worries were continued after a few games watching Dossena play. As Mick would say, we spunked a lot of money on a lad who, if I'm charitable, is remarkably out of his depth in English football. I would hope our scouting system would have sussed that out and the fact that we signed him anyway is a problem. Of late, though, the flashing neon sign that things aren't right is the situation with Robbie Keane. Some still contend that Keane's been so poor for us that he deserves to be dropped. I don't agree (since other players who are also not pulling up trees still get plenty of minutes) but no one can convince that he's not even worth a spot on the bench against the Bitters and against Chelsea today, if reports are to be believed. Whether Rafa was 100% gung-ho to make him our big money signing this summer or not is irrelevant, IMO. He's head and shoulders above everyone else at the club when it comes to be Torres' understudy and we bloody well should have been taking advantage of his talents while Torres was out for all those matches. Seeing him sat on the bench while we played Kuyt alone up top in a 4-5-1 was torture and a sign that Rafa's agenda, whatever it is, is not serving the best interests of the team. I'll wait to see how things go for the rest of the season because I would not put it beyond us to go on a very good run and look a much different prospect (kind of like last year). There are, however, some managerial eccentricities surfacing at the moment that no run of good results should be permitted to obscure. Rafa needs to get a grip, and quickly, to keep his job.

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