Liverpool FC Forum

by **only me** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:02 am

I think the main problem is that Rafa thinks he can do it all alone - he needs assistance - he needs another man by his side that will focus on scouting and picking the right players for our team - be it one man or some kind of process which will locate those quality players we desperetly need.

We aren't swimming in money but we have enough to bring top world quality players - we have settled too long on hard working limited quality players we can do much better.

Help Rafa.

by **Scottbot** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:17 pm

fivecups wrote:Good posts here including IMHO the first line of Kazaa's. I don't want to batter Mick - he's one of the main reasons to read this forum, it's best poster. His opinion is often different to mine, his posts rile me up but he may well be 'righter' than me - it's what a footie forum should be all about.

I have always had great belief in Rafa. I'm not planning to change that just yet - I'll reassess things at the end of the season. My belief has been shaken a bit in the last month - for reasons concisely summarised by Lyndsey. The Robbie Keane paradox is becoming clearer - Im deeply disappointed that Rafa appears to have used him as a political tool to the detriment of our club and title chances. It seems like he wanted him but not in preference to Barry and not for £20 million. But, Rafa, once you've got him you should try and get the most out of him for the good of the club. You tried but not hard enough because you couldn't get past the fact that you didn't have complete control over the deal.

However, rather than a complete overhaul and another rebuilding process (how many more of these can we finance in the current economic climate) I think a tweaking of the current setup is all we need. A bit more aggression and risk when it's 0-0 or 1-0 could turn a lot of our draws into wins. Just a slight change in offensive mentality, a bit more willingness to go for it. Let the player off the leash a bit.

I think we're precariously balanced as a club. Owners in financial trouble. The club in debt - with loans we possibly can't repay. Deep and probably irreparable divisions between the chief executive and the manager - surely one of them has to go. And as Lakes talked about - the gloabl financial crises has yet to fully hit fully. I believe that when it does theres going to be clubs that don't survive. I don't want LFC to be reduced to a shadow of it's former self.

Be careful what you wish for those who want Rafa out. Picture the outlook if goes. I think most people on here dont even try and understand his managerial, tactical style. Play your best eleven every game. Play 4-4-2. Always play a striker when he's in form. His first aim was to build a solid spine - no-one can argue that he's done that brilliantly. In the summer he talked about improving our full-backs - to be more attack minded and suit the modern game - miserable fail. Picture the mass exodus the complete collapse of the spine if he leaves. Not good.

Rambling, hungover post this. I need to go get a flight. I'm going to shout my friggin' head off today especially when the Rafa song starts up (and I think it will). The response of the crowd today to recent events will be massive.

That's a cracking post mate.

by **lakes10** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:27 pm

some great post here, and this is not going to be one of them, I think we also need to start looking at what we have lost in the last 5 years since Rafa been here, the lack of young english , British player coming from our youth set up is shocking, they just seem to be booted to one side and non english youth players put in their place. it makes me feel sick to tell you the trurh. our club is so none English that its a joke.

A young kid is better trning down a chance to play for us as a youth and go to another team like Man U or West Ham, they have a better chane of getting a game and a better chance of being looked after and moved on into the first team.
if anyone say that our young kids have not been that good over the last five years is having a joke, we have had some great young players but we sold them off to buy none English youths. with a bit more time spent on our young English players we have of had another Steven Gerrard and Michael Owen.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:36 pm

lakes10 wrote:some great post here, and this is not going to be one of them, I think we also need to start looking at what we have lost in the last 5 years since Rafa been here, the lack of young english , British player coming from our youth set up is shocking, they just seem to be booted to one side and non english youth players put in their place. it makes me feel sick to tell you the trurh. our club is so none English that its a joke.

A young kid is better trning down a chance to play for us as a youth and go to another team like Man U or West Ham, they have a better chane of getting a game and a better chance of being looked after and moved on into the first team.
if anyone say that our young kids have not been that good over the last five years is having a joke, we have had some great young players but we sold them off to buy none English youths. with a bit more time spent on our young English players we have of had another Steven Gerrard and Michael Owen.

TBH I don't think we have had anyone anywhere near the caliber of a Gerrard or Owen mate...... they all choose to sign for other clubs. However I agree with most of your post mate. Can you blame them for not choosing to come to us? Our youth team is being used as a pawn in a battle for power, we are buying in lots of foreign youngsters, and our record of giving players chances in the first team is probably as bad as anyones in the prem.

by **Scottbot** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:39 pm

fivecups wrote:However, rather than a complete overhaul and another rebuilding process (how many more of these can we finance in the current economic climate) I think a tweaking of the current setup is all we need. A bit more aggression and risk when it's 0-0 or 1-0 could turn a lot of our draws into wins. Just a slight change in offensive mentality, a bit more willingness to go for it. Let the player off the leash a bit.

I particularly agree with this bit, but that is what what makes it all so frustrating isn't it? When you can see that we're close, that the opportunity is there to go out and win a game we're drawing if only we showed some balls and really went for it. But can you see the manager changing his philosophy? I'd love to see us throw on 3 subs at once on the hour mark when a match needs changing, or a player subbed at half-time when he is clearly having a mare (see Dossena against Hull for perfect example of this) but it isn't Rafa's way, at least not that we have seen till now.

I'm pretty divided on things at the moment, you can't deny we've missed a MASSIVE opportunity to be firmly in the driving seat this past month but neither can you deny we are still in a good position to make a run at the mancs in the title run-in. A win against Chelsea this afternoon could be just the tonic to get this thing up and running again, whilst a loss will have most writing epitaphs for this season's title challenge.

As for Mick's points, most of them are pretty valid and he is hardly the first to lose faith in the manager's long-term ability to win the title. He is spot on with his assessment of the current squad although you have maintained that we have had a squad capable of winning (or coming close) the title for the past 2 seasons Mick so I don't know if that is something that you still hold to? It's really frustrating to watch us stagnate like this when you're sat here thinking you know the answers.

1- We're shi...te in wide areas, everyone knows it, we talk about it on here every bloody season. Stick the Captain back on the right-hand side and see if he can cause the same havoc of 3 seasons ago (his best in a Liverpool shirt). I don't understand the reluctance of the manager? He played the lad there for virtually an entire season to great effect. Why not now? Even if it is as a change-up during a match. I don't understand it.

2- The Keane problem. SELL HIM and buy someone else for FOOKS SAKE!!!! Why wait, just get it done. why aren't we moving in this transfer window? I'm baffled.

by **roberto green** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:44 pm

bigmick wrote:I know I'm going to come under attack on this thread so I'll keep the topic starter short. It'll give me something to come back with.

Broadly, I think we've improved as a team. But in five seasons, given the investment, I don't think it's enough. I mentioned on another thread about the squad:

Goalkeeper-We have a top drawer keeper (bought by Rafa). Charitably, we have a reasonable replacement.

Right back-After five years our best one is Alvarro Arbeloa. Solid enough player without being anywhere near absolute top class, our back up is non existent.

Left back-Our best one is Fabio Aurelio. Decent player once again without being a World beater (when fit), our back up is a 19 year old kid.

Centre Halves-we still have the two which were left for Rafa when he arrived. One of those is still the best we've got, and the other will need replacing soon. We have two which Rafa has brought in who are both good players, without actually being right at the very top of what there is in the Premiership.
Right midfielder-Being totally honest we haven't got one.

Left midfielder-We have Albert Riera who is a decent player.If he is unavailable, we haven't got anyone else.

Central midfielders-We have three top class ones, and a reasonable stop gap.

Strikers-We have one top class one, one who is good but who never gets selected, and nobody else.

The squad is then topped up with a succession of players who aren't in any way shape or form good enough. The progression from say Finnan to Arbeloa after five seasons isn't enough. Neither is it enough to progress from John Arne Riise of five seasons ago to Fabio Aurelio. Ditto Sami Hyppia to Martin Skrtel. There isn't anyone, not a single player waiting in the wings who you watch and think, "feck me he's going to be some player this lad".

After five seasons of Rafa Benitez, the squad needs major work. My guess is it needs major money, time effort and skill. Much more than he has shown so far. He has spent 150 million quid and I think it's reasonable to expect more for our money. His recent conduct has been at best eccentric, and at worst an absolute disgrace.

In my humble opinion, at the end of the season we should get rid.

Well all i can say is can we wait for the end of the season first?

A lot could change,I do agree with your points but we aren't in too bad of a position as it stands and if we win today we are right back in it as the mancs major challengers and this game might just give us some self belief(if we win).

If Rafa did leave the only spanish player i could see sticking around is Alonso, so i certainly won't be looking forward to the new 5 year plan yet again,boy do these 5 year plans add up I've aged 10 years following watching these plans develop which don't develop should i say.

by **GYBS** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:49 pm

im sorry lakes but if the british youngsters were good enough they would play . Not many teams have british youngsters coming thru the ranks . Even man utd just spent another 16 odd mil on serbians . Chelsea have none and arsenal have one plus one they have bought . No manager will say no to playing a kid just because he is british . The simple hard fact is they arent good enough , the youngsters from abroad get coached and trained far better as a kid and 9 times out of ten are technically better than their english counterpart . Plus if more kids actually went out for a kick about as opposed to eating :censored:

and playin fifa or whatever then maybe more british talent would come thru .

by **tubby** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:36 pm

There are no guarantees that a new manager coulld improve things. Ok if there was new investment and the manager was allowed to rebuild then maybe but even if someone did come in I couldn't see them being given much if any money at all before having to sell.

by **lakes10** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:39 pm

GYBS wrote:im sorry lakes but if the british youngsters were good enough they would play . Not many teams have british youngsters coming thru the ranks . Even man utd just spent another 16 odd mil on serbians . Chelsea have none and arsenal have one plus one they have bought . No manager will say no to playing a kid just because he is british . The simple hard fact is they arent good enough , the youngsters from abroad get coached and trained far better as a kid and 9 times out of ten are technically better than their english counterpart . Plus if more kids actually went out for a kick about as opposed to eating and playin fifa or whatever then maybe more british talent would come thru .

most of the good ones dont come to us now, they know that they have a better chance with other teams......bring back the old days. I hate all this money in football.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:39 pm

If we beat Chelsea, sell Keane getting most our money back, get in at least one striker but preferably two (Henrik Larson and Eidur Gudjohnsen on loan?) and Rafa signs a new contract on terms he and the club are happy with, it might not look so bad Monday evening.

Just thought I’d throw it in there.

by **tubby** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:41 pm

lakes10 wrote:
GYBS wrote:im sorry lakes but if the british youngsters were good enough they would play . Not many teams have british youngsters coming thru the ranks . Even man utd just spent another 16 odd mil on serbians . Chelsea have none and arsenal have one plus one they have bought . No manager will say no to playing a kid just because he is british . The simple hard fact is they arent good enough , the youngsters from abroad get coached and trained far better as a kid and 9 times out of ten are technically better than their english counterpart . Plus if more kids actually went out for a kick about as opposed to eating and playin fifa or whatever then maybe more british talent would come thru .

most of the good ones dont come to us now, they know that they have a better chance with other teams......bring back the old days. I hate all this money in football.

Yeah and their prices are so inflated these days we dont have a chance tbh. Look at Rooney, Walcott and others. Our only chance is if we snap them up quick but we don't seem to have any knack for doing that and by the time the other clubs find out we are already priced out of the market.

by **Scottbot** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:48 pm

Cool Hand Luke wrote:If we beat Chelsea, sell Keane getting most our money back, get in at least one striker but preferably two (Henrik Larson and Eidur Gudjohnsen on loan?) and Rafa signs a new contract on terms he and the club are happy with, it might not look so bad Monday evening.

Just thought I’d throw it in there.

Agree on the contract front, whether you want the manager to stay or not it is FAR better for this season's prospects for him to sign the new deal. Not sure about Larsson I'd be all over a move for Gudjonsen. We've got to bring someone in, surely?

by **roberto green** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:49 pm

Cool Hand Luke wrote:If we beat Chelsea, sell Keane getting most our money back, get in at least one striker but preferably two (Henrik Larson and Eidur Gudjohnsen on loan?) and Rafa signs a new contract on terms he and the club are happy with, it might not look so bad Monday evening.

Just thought I’d throw it in there.

That's a lot to fit in mate as well as being a bit too optimistic

by **tubby** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:50 pm

Should be an interesting end to the transfer window. Knowing Rafa he probably already has someone in mind. I wouldn't mind that Karim Benzema or that Affalay.

by **Sabre** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:51 pm

Bigmick, about your post, it was just about time you expressed explicitly what your posts implied in the last year and a half. IMHO, that opinion should be said naturally, and accepted naturally. I admit though that sometimes it wasn't easy to say that opinion, because issues about loyalty were mixed. But it was more than obvious you had that opinion within you.

The only "stick" I'll give you is that you tend as of late to open a new thread to state your opinion when there are other threads covering the same topic. Your opinion won't be read with less attention if you decide to post it in an already opened thread (bar the match threads which are difficult to follow). It's not a major trouble for me either, but I think it's good that regular members like yourself show the new members not to open a new thread if the topic is already covered.

As you know I disagree your opinion and my concerns are summed up by Fivecup's excellent post. I don't have new arguments that the ones already stated dozens of times.

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