Liverpool FC Forum

by **GYBS** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:30 pm

What should Rafa do now ? go all out for the title or go for the CL ? going to be hard to go for both as we dont have the players to compete on both levels .

by **stmichael** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:45 pm

I actually think he's an extraordinarily talented and astute football manager but his unwavering stubborness & complete refusal to contemplate anything other than his preferred modus operandi could well cost his and the club's short & long term futures dearly - if he's not careful.

Saying that, the situation is not irrevocable, if he wants to, he can make the change. However I don't think he will.

by **GYBS** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:44 am

Are we a victim of our own early season success ?

Most people at beginning of the season wanted us to be up there or roundabout in jan feb time and to give it a go till end of the season which we are and hope we do but cause we did hit the top spot and had chances to extend and give ourselves a gap at the top did people expectations of what they want change from wanting to challenge to winning the whole thing ? as we have now seen we are struggling through many reasons so now people are dissappointed (greatly in some cases) and are wanting changes despite us being where most people wanted us to be ?

by **Alex G.** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:57 pm

Rafa go now, it´s time for klinsman, he will win the next 8 premier leagues and 4 european cups. Klinsman is the man.

by **Madmax** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:03 pm

Alex G. wrote:Rafa go now, it´s time for klinsman, he will win the next 8 premier leagues and 4 european cups. Klinsman is the man.

i remember when yankies were after him to replace rafa in 07 nov i think... dont know if his the man if rafa goes.. at the moment rafa is our man so i guess even though we do slag him off we have to still hope he could produce the goods...

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:20 pm

Effes wrote:
oakton wrote:The major problem with Rafa is that he does not put the best team on the pitch and we are continuing to not winning games like this.

I bet you haven't realized it yet, but most of the top European clubs rest their players these days. Guardiola rotates the :censored:

out of his Barcelona team and they are by far the best team in Europe. No matter what anyone says, we have a really good squad, but our problem is that many of them are off form.

by **spion** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:32 pm

I think Benitez will walk before the season ends. Possibly after Sundays game against Chelsea but deffo after we get knocked out of the campions league. Fact is he seems to be having a breakdown regarding the football side of things & if I was the owners I'd stop him from doing the pre match press stuff because they are getting at him every time because they want good copy. It is a massive shame that people calling themselves Reds are getting on at the manager. Without Benitez there would be no Champions final in 05 & no Torres! WE have moved on from Houllier & we still have some growing to do before Benitez has gone as far as he can.

by **fivecups** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:38 am

Times Fink tank article on Rafa

There are no cracks in Rafael Benitez's master plan at Liverpool
Fink Tank: Daniel Finkelstein

He’s cracking up. The pressure is getting to him. He just can’t take it. A strange whistling sound appears to be coming from The Nonsense-ometer, perched behind a pile of books in the Fink Tank lab. Every time there is another article about Rafael Benítez, his ulcer — or was it his kidney stone? — Robbie Keane, Liverpool and the elusive title, the indicator on the dial tips into the red. And over the past few days the equipment has turned hot and begun emitting an irritating high-pitched noise. Honestly, it has been hard to concentrate.

So let me tell you what the Fink Tank thinks about the goings-on at Anfield. The first thing is that we are not surprised that Liverpool’s title challenge is faltering. We always thought that it would. Our computer model at the beginning of the campaign gave Liverpool a 10 per cent chance of lifting the Barclays Premier League trophy. It rose to about 13 per cent and has fallen back to 7 per cent. In other words (as the graphic shows, too) nothing particularly spectacular has been going on. Only those who overestimated Liverpool’s chances to start with would be surprised at the position now.

In fact, in terms of points, Liverpool have done a bit better than we expected. They are four points ahead of where we thought they would be. These extra points have been won away from home.

If you want a feel for Liverpool, our ratings have them at 64 per cent as good as the best team in the Premier League (interestingly, still — just — Chelsea). Arsenal are a tiny bit better (at 65 per cent). So there is quite a gap.

Is the gap Benítez’s fault? Dr Henry Stott, Dr Ian Graham and Dr Mark Latham have produced a model where the points a team score are compared with points they should be expected to score, given the size of their wage bill.

Some clubs have often done worse than the wage bill says that they should (Newcastle United), other clubs have often done better (Everton), but Liverpool basically perform as you would expect. Last season they were three points ahead of the wage bill. Nothing special, but certainly not a figure that supports the idea that it is all Benítez’s fault.

What about the players? Liverpool’s best player this season, per minute, has been Steven Gerrard so far. However, the most useful player has been Xabi Alonso. This is because he is almost as good per minute but has been on the field more than Gerrard. Fernando Torres is the third most valuable player per minute, but has been absent a great deal.

Has Benítez been mad to exclude Keane? Well, the first is that he, er, has not. Keane has been on the pitch for 66 per cent of the time that Liverpool have played this season. But Benítez’s frustration is not hard to understand. Keane has not been as good for Liverpool as he was for Tottenham Hotspur.

Having played 65 per cent of the 2005-06 season, he added nearly 12 points to Spurs compared with the average replacement. In 2006-07, he played 48 per cent and added 17.2 points. In 2007-08, he played 79 per cent and added 10.4 points. This season? He has played 66 per cent, adding 3.3 points.

So you can see Benítez’s point.

Now, it has been suggested that maybe this decline is not Keane’s fault, maybe it is something Benítez does to strikers. Not so. Peter Crouch is about the same at Portsmouth as he was at Liverpool, Craig Bellamy was better at Liverpool than at West Ham United and Djibril Cissé was better at Liverpool than at Sunderland.

So in a nutshell? I don’t accept the Benítez thesis. I think that he is just fine.

by **puroresu** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:28 am

ruskiy playmaker wrote:
Effes wrote:
oakton wrote:The major problem with Rafa is that he does not put the best team on the pitch and we are continuing to not winning games like this.

I bet you haven't realized it yet, but most of the top European clubs rest their players these days. Guardiola rotates the out of his Barcelona team and they are by far the best team in Europe. No matter what anyone says, we have a really good squad, but our problem is that many of them are off form.

but Barcelona have a squad full of world class players. Also he rarely rotates the front 3 or the back 4 in the league games. Usually he will change the midfield. Iniesta, Toure and Kieta.

by **Effes** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:00 am

Brain reade in The Mirror:

Never Walk Alone? Liverpool chiefs are pulling in different directions

The people at the top of Liverpool Football Club never tire of telling the world how special their fans are.

They’re fond of quoting, even miming, those famous Rodgers and Hammerstein lyrics about never walking alone. But behind the sentimental smokescreen lie warring factions so obsessed with personal victory they long ago ceased to care about the misery they’re piling on those same fans.

From the team-sheets to the balance-sheets, from the manager’s head to the owners’ objectives, Kopites no longer have a clue what’s going on at Anfield.

At the very point in history when the club cries out for unity, the blows from above rain down harder.

It’s as though Manchester United being one title away from equalling their own record of 18 has made the management more intent on playing out their civil war.

As though Liverpool’s seven-week presence at the top of the table didn’t just give their fans a chance to rekindle past glories, it gave the men in charge a platform to cement their own futures.

The absentee American cowboys are only united in one goal: To suck as much money out of Anfield and forget they ever heard of the place.

The life president and the chief executive are lame ducks, wallowing in the shame of selling the club so badly and so cheaply. And an increasingly stubborn manager, who refuses to sign a new contract until he’s handed full control of all football matters, seems more intent on all-out attacks on Rick Parry than opposing teams.

There’s schisms and plotting, lying and leaks, inexplicable outbursts and bizarre decisions wholly unbefitting a great club which is now five months away from being repossessed by banks. And in between are a group of players, some awaiting new contracts, others acceptance, many simply bemused at what’s going on around them.

Forget the awful draws, the anti-Fergie rant and the Press leak which forced the Kuwaitis to walk away in anger, what most sums up this unseemly shambles is the treatment of Robbie Keane.

Last summer, Benitez fancied him, but not as much as he fancied Gareth Barry. Parry fancied Keane so badly he paid over the odds, leaving Benitez without sufficient cash for Barry, and fuming.

Almost from day one Keane has felt unwanted, a feeling confirmed by regular substitutions, exclusion from the team and eventually, in a home derby, from the bench. And this week he’s all but been encouraged to leave.

So instead of watching a proven striker winning games, the fans stare dumbfounded at a £20million pawn in a long-running power struggle. Nothing exposes the divisions at the heart of the club more.

I’ve been a staunch supporter of Benitez and I still believe he can make Liverpool great again. I even think he can win a trophy this season.

But right now he seems so hell-bent on winning his own personal battles he’s alienating everyone around him. Tomorrow Tom Hicks and George Gillett will sit a dozen seats apart in the directors’ box, in some fake show of love for a club they’re killing. Equally distant will be Benitez and Parry.

No doubt, if Liverpool win, all will try to claim credit, when it will probably be down to a flash of brilliance from the usual suspects and the passion of the fans they claim are so special.

Well here’s a message from one of them: This year sees the 50th anniversary of Bill Shankly’s arrival at Anfield and the creation of modern Liverpool.

Never in his worst nightmare would he have envisaged his precious club being run in such a destructive and undignified manner.

You love Liverpool? Put away your egos and prove it.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport....1084536

by **112-1077774096** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:47 am

stmichael wrote:I actually think he's an extraordinarily talented and astute football manager but his unwavering stubborness & complete refusal to contemplate anything other than his preferred modus operandi could well cost his and the club's short & long term futures dearly - if he's not careful.

Saying that, the situation is not irrevocable, if he wants to, he can make the change. However I don't think he will.

sorry mike if he was as talented and astute as you think he is then his stubborness would not be an issue. The fact is his stubborness is an issue because he is not as talented or astute as some think he is.

by **Effes** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:52 am

I never voted on this poll til now, I wasn't sure how I felt about things.

Just voted NO. My reasons -

Off the pitch:

Rafa simply must stay, look at the others "in charge" at the club - Those 2 clowns and Parry?!!
If Rafa was to go, we could find ourselves totally fecked.
They could get Klinnsman in, and before you know it we could be where Spurs are now.
Rafa is the only person we can trust our club with.

On the pitch:
There have certainly been a few occasions where Ive wondered whether Rafa is the right man to bring us a 19th Title.
It's been a bit of a rollercoaster really.

The Stoke draw didn't worry me that much, it was a mad "park-the-bus" scenario.
Then we had the come back away to Man City - I was feckin ecstatic at that.
I thought, "This is it, Rafa's gonna concentrate on the League, he's gonna do it."
Winning away at Chelsea had me sit up and take serious notice too - I was buzzing.

But then the draws at home to Fulham, West Ham and Hull depressed me somewhat.
But then the draw at Arsenal, win against Bolton then the 5-1 at Newcastle had me buzzing again.

Only for the draws against Stoke, Everton and Wigan to bring me back down again.

But isn't this just typical of the "modern" (since 2001) Liverpool?
Think about it - Birmingham League Cup, the UEFA Cup Final, Arsenal FA Cup (Owens late goals), Istanbul, 2006 FA Cup ??

Now I know Rafa wasn't around in 2001, but it's still Liverpool.
I wonder whether this season could sit alongside those legendary finals.

I feel my head has cleared after the Wigan game. On Sunday it's back to business, it could be our D-Day.
The atmosphere I think will be cranked up big time, and Im sure the support will be ther for Rafa -we cant let him fight this on his own.

Note - I dont get offended at people who want Rafa out. I can see why. Dont agree, but people are
allowed to have their opinions.

by **fivecups** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:04 am

Strong words from Brian Reade. He mentions a lot of the topics that have been debated on here recently.

Ownership - the Americans are out for as much money as they can get. I don't think anyone disputes that. The mention of 5 months until Liverpool gets repossessed is hugely concerning in this economic crises.

The power struggle - Carra calls for unity in his autobiography. He intimates it's affecting the players. I hate that when we were so close to challenging for the title the board conspired to put that at risk. :censored:

them.

Robbie Keane - he agrees that we paid too much for him. Interestingly he states that Rick Parry was keener than Rafa and that it was Parry who agreed the price. He also suggests that Rafa has used Keane as a 'pawn' in his battle with Parry. I personally don't believe that but if true would be disgraceful management by Benitez.

Sort it out!

by **heimdall** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:07 am

Effes wrote:I never voted on this poll til now, I wasn't sure how I felt about things.

Just voted NO. My reasons -

Off the pitch:

Rafa simply must stay, look at the others "in charge" at the club - Those 2 clowns and Parry?!!
If Rafa was to go, we could find ourselves totally fecked.
They could get Klinnsman in, and before you know it we could be where Spurs are now.
Rafa is the only person we can trust our club with.

On the pitch:
There have certainly been a few occasions where Ive wondered whether Rafa is the right man to bring us a 19th Title.
It's been a bit of a rollercoaster really.

The Stoke draw didn't worry me that much, it was a mad "park-the-bus" scenario.
Then we had the come back away to Man City - I was feckin ecstatic at that.
I thought, "This is it, Rafa's gonna concentrate on the League, he's gonna do it."
Winning away at Chelsea had me sit up and take serious notice too - I was buzzing.

But then the draws at home to Fulham, West Ham and Hull depressed me somewhat.
But then the draw at Arsenal, win against Bolton then the 5-1 at Newcastle had me buzzing again.

Only for the draws against Stoke, Everton and Wigan to bring me back down again.

But isn't this just typical of the "modern" (since 2001) Liverpool?
Think about it - Birmingham League Cup, the UEFA Cup Final, Arsenal FA Cup (Owens late goals), Istanbul, 2006 FA Cup ??

Now I know Rafa wasn't around in 2001, but it's still Liverpool.
I wonder whether this season could sit alongside those legendary finals.

I feel my head has cleared after the Wigan game. On Sunday it's back to business, it could be our D-Day.
The atmosphere I think will be cranked up big time, and Im sure the support will be ther for Rafa -we cant let him fight this on his own.

Note - I dont get offended at people who want Rafa out. I can see why. Dont agree, but people are
allowed to have their opinions.

erm weren't you calling for Rafa to be sacked a few short days ago.

don't agree with you but I do respect peoples blind faith in Rafa. BTW that fink tank thing was the biggest load of :censored:

I've evr read, made Owzat's stats look sensible. Bellamy as effective for WestHam as he was for us, so how come he's just been sold for double what we got for him then?? Plus how the feck has Xabi played more minutes than Stevie this season?? BUt any "system" that rates Chelsea as the best team currently needs some adjustment, for me the best teams currently are, Manure, Aston Villa, Chelsea, Everton, Arsenal... then maybe us.

We really need this win tomorrow, if we get spanked which I don't for some reason think will happen but then I never thought we'd have a manager who thought it would be a good idea to constantly remove any attacking threat we possess in the dying minutes of a drawing game either, then we could really go into freefall.

by **Owzat** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:24 am

Madmax wrote:
Alex G. wrote:Rafa go now, it´s time for klinsman, he will win the next 8 premier leagues and 4 european cups. Klinsman is the man.

i remember when yankies were after him to replace rafa in 07 nov i think... dont know if his the man if rafa goes.. at the moment rafa is our man so i guess even though we do slag him off we have to still hope he could produce the goods...

He could produce the goods, the problem is his very best only lasts 10-12 games and is followed by title challenge destroying form. We're not out of it yet, but unless we match our form of the first 10 games - P10 W8 D2 L0 - then I can't see us finishing higher than 3rd or 4th, maybe 2nd if Chelsea stumble a bit again.

Rafa's best points tally is 82, no Champions have won the league with less than that since 2000/01. The most wins Rafa has managed are 25, the last time the Champions won that few was Man Utd in 2002/03. The point is we have to improve to a higher level than we are, not three points better off but six, seven, eight, nine or maybe more. Our 'best ever Premiership start' is only in comparison to OUR previous Premiership starts, doesn't mean it's good enough.

If we win ALL our remaining games, including Man Utd (a), Chelsea (h) and Arsenal (h), then we'd manage 93 points. That would probably be enough to win the league, but that's a maximum with no dropped points and even then compare that maximum with recent totals by Champions

04/05 : 95 Chelsea
08/09 : 93 Liverpool (with maximum points from remaining games)
99/00 : 91 Man Utd
05/06 : 91 Chelsea
03/04 : 90 Arsenal (unbeaten)
06/07 : 89 Man Utd
01/02 : 87 Arsenal
07/08 : 87 Man Utd
02/03 : 83 Man Utd
00/01 : 80 Man Utd

We're gonna drop points, the above shows that we can't afford to drop too many more before we're facing little hope of a title challenge. Even including the good start we're drawing more than once every third game. To reach even 83 points we'd need another 35 points from 15 games. To reach the lowest total to win the league in the last FIVE seasons (87 last season), we'd need to win at least 12 of our last 15 games (drawing the other three)

Any way you look at it, we can't afford many more draws or a defeat. A win at old trafford looks almost a must from where I'm sitting, I said a while back that I'd rather consider our title challenge prospects AFTER that game. Well now it looks crucial to win it since the mancs have only to play us and Arsenal and not many other sides look capable of beating them. Not many look capable of beating us, but we have to play THREE that do, the Champions away, and are looking incapable of beating enough of those that don't look capable of beating us.

A gamble of sacking Rafa and bringing in a 'miracle man' may not pay the ultimate dividend, but I'm guessing it's no less likely than Rafa performing the same 'miracle'. His sides may have clawed back cup finals to draw and win on penalties, how much of that is down to him is a matter of opinion, but he's NEVER shown capable of winning consistently enough to win the league.

Most Consecutive League Wins Under Rafa

10 : 2005/06 (29/10/05-31/12/05)
9 : 2005/06 (15/03/06-07/05/06)
5 : five instances under Rafa

So we've had just two runs of more than five consecutive league wins under Rafa. Sadly we won just three games in the spell of 11 games between the two long winning runs in 2005/06, three away defeats inflicted by 'big four' rivals.

In a spell not long before Rafa's side won 10 in a row in the league, they managed their worst spell in the league under Rafa (over 10 games) - and somewhere in the middle of that poor spell came the Istanbul miracle.

23/04/05-02/10/05 : P10 W2 D5 L0 PTS 11
29/10/05-31/12/05 : P10 W10 D0 L0 PTS 30

Maybe we will best the tally of 2005/06, I'm not sure we'll even best last season's 76 points the way we're going. Some are holding on to the hope that Rafa IS the man and will get there eventually, but WHAT IF he has peaked already and what we saw last season and this IS as close as he will ever get?

Last two laps of a GP, car has a problem with a tyre and you're leading by maybe just enough seconds to make a pit stop. Win the race and you win the Driver's Championship. Do you change the tyre or hope your car can limp the last two laps courtesy of your lead? Well our car isn't in front anymore, there IS a problem with the car and maybe a change (of driver) will work. It's not the done thing, but the fact is we may not get in a position as good as this again. The Championship is slipping away as we've just been passed by a car lapping fractionally faster and we don't look like doing anything to beat their laptimes.

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Should rafa go if he fails to win the league

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