Liverpool FC Forum

by **Redman in wales** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:15 pm

worst part is 98% of the problems JBG spoke about on the 1st February 2008 are still 1st February 2009.

by **stmichael** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:46 pm

I don’t believe in short-termism. I’m frustrated by the club from top to bottom from the Board room to the youth set up (on the field and off the field) at the moment and that includes Rafa. It’s more a sense of optimism has washed away and the true picture of our demise has become apparent. I still believe we are making progress and have improved immeasurably under Rafa (from the dark days of Houllier, Traore, Cheyrou, Biscan, Diao, and Diouf) and by and large Rafa gets it right most of the time, but such are the expectations of the fans, the scrutiny of the media and the successes of our rivals it’s hard not to get pulled in and lose all sense of context and perspective.

Everyone wanted a challenge this season – which we are giving (but fading fast), but as soon as that happened, the goal post changed to “we want the title”! So now the expectation has been set and if we don’t finish first, the season will seem a failure. But should that be the case? To win the title we have to punch substantially above our weight as the teams around us have far greater resource to call upon. This season certainly looks like a missed opportunity, but is that purely down to Rafa? The players were a joke last night.

by **THEBARON** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:53 pm

True - we should not let these numerous ( and valid ) criticisms of Rafa distract us from the fact that too many of the players are letting us down as well.

by **Penguins** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:52 pm

How many titles have we won since our 20 goals/20 assist man came?

by **GYBS** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:55 pm

20 goals 20 assists ?

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:09 pm

Bad Bob wrote:A fantastic initial post from JBG. There's lots of food for thought there and I'm kind of with Scott--my head agrees with most of it but my heart is not yet ready to see Rafa go. I'd still like to give him one more year to straighten things out. That said, failing to finish among the CL positions this season will force the axe to fall, I'm afraid.

Just had to have a look back to see how I responded to the initial (fantastic) post from JBG. I was all braced to see some spirited defense of Rafa but I guess I've had my doubts longer than I realized. One year on and I don't think Rafa's done over-much to rubbish any of JBG's indictments. Indeed, the only perceivable area he's changed relates to mass rotation. In the area of transfers and man-management, JBG's comments are even more prescient 12 months later than they were at the time, and that's a worry. And then, of course, there's the idea that Rafa over-complicates things rather than letting the lads loose to play their game. Subbing a very-much-in-goal-scoring-form Gerrard off seconds after conceding a late equalizer is further evidence in favour of the prosecution, I'm afraid.

So what does it all mean? Well, that's a bit murkier. JBG was writing at a time, last year, before we switched the formation round and went on a fantastic CL run. Things looked a might rosier once that happened and I wouldn't bet against us doing the same sort of thing this season. But, will it be enough to keep us in the league race and, crucially, will it be enough to keep Rafa in a job? That's a harder call to make and I'm certainly not going to prejudge just yet. What I will say is that my faith in Rafa has been shaken in the past month in a way I didn't predict would happen. Serious doubts have started to creep in about whether he's the man to lead forward after this season. I'll keep faith until May and see how things shake out but I can't say I'm particularly optimistic at this stage. Perhaps, one year on, my head has finally worn my heart down?

by **Ciggy** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:38 pm

Should Wenger, Scolari or MON be sacked for not winning the league? Hell no, Wenger seems on his last legs Arsenal havent won anything for a while and their sexy football seems to have ground to a hault aswell.

Our problem is we are really boring to watch at times, its predictable and I can count on one hand how many times we have played well this season.

Is this enough a top 4 finish every season? and maybe a trophey.

Or have people actually had enough of drawing all these games?

by **tubby** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:41 pm

Arsenal are suffering from their main guy Fabregas being out injured. We are the same when we lose Torres or Gerrard. Now they will have Arshavin soon.

by **tonyeh** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:53 pm

Ciggy wrote:Should Wenger, Scolari or MON be sacked for not winning the league? Hell no, Wenger seems on his last legs Arsenal havent won anything for a while and their sexy football seems to have ground to a hault aswell.

Our problem is we are really boring to watch at times, its predictable and I can count on one hand how many times we have played well this season.

Is this enough a top 4 finish every season? and maybe a trophey.

Or have people actually had enough of drawing all these games?

I don't think Rafa will be let go due to not winning anything though Ciggy. He'll be gone because of the absolutely bizzarre decisions he makes and his obvious detrimental effect his intereference has on the performance of the team.

He really only has himself to blame.

Wenger's Arsenal may have fallen on tough times, but Arsene never makes the howlers that benitez makes.

Likewise with Scolari and Chelsea, who have had a Liverpool-style-blip™ themselves. But I simply cannot imagine him leaving Chelsea toothless, like Rafa has done on recent occasions.

Ditto with Martin O'Niell, who IMHO is doing an absolutely excellent job at Aston Villa.

by **Simari** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:00 am

bavlondon wrote:Arsenal are suffering from their main guy Fabregas being out injured. We are the same when we lose Torres or Gerrard. Now they will have Arshavin soon.

This really goes to show just how strong and deep a team, Fergie has built. The keyword being team.

But it starts with making winning a habit and the only outcome on a game.

Rafa may be a tactician and possibly can motivate for one-off games, but he surely doesn't appear to be a motivator over the course of an entire season.

Tevez most likely won't be around come summer, but he is more than doing a job in Rooney's absence.

And to top it off, Mancs did not concede a goal for 8 games without Ferdinand in the side.

None of the other EPL teams can match the quality in strength and depth. Funny enough, even Barca fall down to the level of the rest of the Spanish chasing teams, without Messi.

by **Rorschach26** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:03 am

yeh the fact thats hes got about afew 30 mill players about 8 15-20million plus players in his squad & afew 10 million 1s on the cheap helps

by **Kharhaz** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:05 am

Simari wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Arsenal are suffering from their main guy Fabregas being out injured. We are the same when we lose Torres or Gerrard. Now they will have Arshavin soon.

This really goes to show just how strong and deep a team, Fergie has built. The keyword being team.

But it starts with making winning a habit and the only outcome on a game.

Rafa may be a tactician and possibly can motivate for one-off games, but he surely doesn't appear to be a motivator over the course of an entire season.

Tevez most likely won't be around come summer, but he is more than doing a job in Rooney's absence.

And to top it off, Mancs did not concede a goal for 8 games without Ferdinand in the side.

None of the other EPL teams can match the quality in strength and depth. Funny enough, even Barca fall down to the level of the rest of the Spanish chasing teams, without Messi.

I actually think the experience that Scholes, Giggs, Van der Sar and Neville has benefits to there team as much as anything. No other of the top 4 can boast that they have that kind of experience.

by **Rorschach26** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:05 am

oh an the fact he had about 5 quality-worldclass players come through the ranks & save his :censored:

when he was about 2 get sacked helps also

& be4 any1 says well he recruited em....yeh im sure he worked miracles doin that "well er they were born & wanted 2 play 4 united from when they started kickin a ball" yeh im sure he broke a sweat gettin them 2 all join

by **Simari** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:12 am

Rorschach26 wrote:oh an the fact he had about 5 quality-worldclass players come through the ranks & save his when he was about 2 get sacked helps also

& be4 any1 says well he recruited em....yeh im sure he worked miracles doin that "well er they were born & wanted 2 play 4 united from when they started kickin a ball" yeh im sure he broke a sweat gettin them 2 all join

It didn't stop him from rebuilding and there was no shortage of talent wanting to join the Mancs.

Fergie is an old fart, but still manages to get the best out of his signings. Don't get me wrong, he has had big failed signings also - but you cannot take away the double last year and their brilliant defensive run this season.

I guess it is upto Sammy to do the motivational talks, but I do wonder if the foreign contingent understand a word of what he says

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:17 am

In fairness, judging by his interviews Sammy is so far up Rafa's @rsehole that any of the players looking for some kind of counterpoint to the managers philosophy are probably not going to get it from the assistant manager.

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