Liverpool FC Forum

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:04 am

lakes10 wrote:after reading all the post on here from last night i think that most members on here here are blind to the fact that Rafa has been off his own game for sometime, his head is not focused on winning the prem.

he needs to put all the other stuff to one side and focus on what he is paid to do, and that is to WIN games, something he is finding hard to do over the last few weeks.

There is also a point to make for our none English/British players not getting the same feeling of MUST WIN in games like last night, not just as would put us back to the top but it would put one over the Blues.

I am not sure we can pick ourselfes up from last night (in the prem) our players have seen their manager talking to the press and know there is stuff going on.My big fear is now Man U Raffa gives up on the Prem and starts looking at the CL to save his job.

The lack of ideas from our team and manager over the last few games has been shocking, Raffa likes sticking to a plan and when its not working he will not change it, We all know that at 65 mins Rafa will make a sub, well so do the teams we play, the other team know that as well and can put a plan into place to overcome that for the next 5 mins (when a goal is 70% more chance of coming for the team thats just made a sub). ok so last night we did get that goal after the sub but at 1-0 we all know Rafa was going to take off the strikers, was can this tell the other team, well a lot.
They know that they do not have to keep a eye on the danger men up front, they can turn their eye to getting up front and helping in getting their goal (and that did happen last night).

What did Radio 5 live think ?

by **Ciggy** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:04 am

Sir Roger wrote:"Welcome aboard mate."

Cheers big ears

Introduce yourself here if you want

http://www.liverpoolfc-newkit.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=17

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:08 am

Sir Roger wrote:"Lucas, Bennynoon and Kuyt are not good enough simple as."

Totally agree. But I would go one step further. How many of the current first team would get into a Shankley, Paisley or Dalglish side? Very few. Which brings us to the conclusion that the team, Rafa's team, is not good enough. I know it's been said here before, but I've been saying it for two seasons: We will not win the league with Rafa in charge. I'm not saying he's a bad manager. But I can't see him being a great manager. There is definitely something missing?

Your opinion and your entitled to it.

Is it exclusive to "great Managers" this winning the league thing is it ?

Also - defin great managers, and give examples.

by **Sir Roger** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:08 am

Will do later
:;):

by **Sir Roger** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:15 am

"Your opinion and your entitled to it.

Is it exclusive to "great Managers" this winning the league thing is it ?

Also - defin great managers, and give examples"

I think I mentioned three in the post?

I want the manger of LFC to be a great manager. The best. I would love to be able to say that about Rafa but I can't and I honestly don't think I ever will. We can all see by now how he manages and what his strengths and weaknesses are.
Maybe you don't have to be a 'great' manager to win the title? But name me someone who has and say it's not a 'great' achievement? To win it you have to be the best. Would you agree?

by **Judge** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:26 am

Owzat wrote:
Judge wrote:benayoun - two miss timed tackles - two free kicks

one equaliser

If he didn't tackle back we'd slate his work ethic, what those weak ball winners need to do is simply get goalside of the attacker and slow the move down to get bodies behind the ball - or do to them what so often they do to us

no mate thats not what i meant

the tackle that led to the equaliser.

two things - 1. what was benayoun doing at right back
2. and why did he need to make the tackle, he shouldve held the player up in the corner, and stifled the play to help run the clock down. instead of making a rash challange.

thats what i mean - it was a ludicrous tackle which cost us

anyone with any football knowledge could see that

by **stmichael** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:34 am

On the game in general, it was pretty average but that's pretty much what I've come to expect thi season at home. We've had so many average performances with the exception of Man United, Bolton and maybe West Brom.

In terms of talent, we're a million miles ahead of Everton but I wish some of our players would show as much application and work rate as some of their players did. We gave the ball away too easily (mainly due to their closing down) and from a creative point of view we offered very little. The wide players were virtually non-existent, Keane was even worse and Torres, despite some flashes of his old self, clearly wasn't fully match fit.

Having gone 1-0 up we were far too negative aswell. We got deeper and deeper and just invited Everton on. Baines (a forgotten man almost) was bombing forward down the left at will and we started to give stupid free kicks around the edge of the area which was always going to be their biggest threat.

Calls for the manager to go from some fans I listened to this morning though are ludicrous. Typical armchair fans who've never been to a game in their lives. Ok I didn't agree with some of Rafa's decisions (Lucas instead of Mascherano being one of them) but it's hardly his fault that several players seriously had off nights, Torres missed a sitter he would normally bury and Benayoun gave away a ridiculous free kick. Thank God for Gerrard is all I can say.

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:45 am

Sir Roger wrote:"Your opinion and your entitled to it.

Is it exclusive to "great Managers" this winning the league thing is it ?

Also - defin great managers, and give examples"

I think I mentioned three in the post?

I want the manger of LFC to be a great manager. The best. I would love to be able to say that about Rafa but I can't and I honestly don't think I ever will. We can all see by now how he manages and what his strengths and weaknesses are.
Maybe you don't have to be a 'great' manager to win the title? But name me someone who has and say it's not a 'great' achievement? To win it you have to be the best. Would you agree?

So Wenger is a great manager as he has won the LEague ?

But he is not a true great for not winning in Europe ?

Is this hte same about Mourinho ? Did he not buy the league ?

Furgeson - I will give you that, its a no brainer.

IS hte Spanish league the same as (ie on a par with) the Premiership ? IF so does someone who has won that league with a not os fashionable side against hte might of Barcelona AND Real MAdrid qualify ?

by **Judge** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:07 pm

Great managers win everything, maybe not all at the same time, but overtime have their hand in various puddings (so to say).

Unfortunately my comments mean rednose is a great manager (hate to say that).

For Liverpool, we seem to be running out of ideas. Maybe that is Rafa's problem. He lacks idea, unable to ad-lib thru a game, making crucial changes that have a positive effect on the teams performance. In fact, last night the changes had a negative effect. The introduction of benayoun did nothing to influence the goal, so folk cant say that.
The introduction of said Benayoun, lucas and babel was a waste of time. We should have stuck with 4-4-2 until the end.
The first thing lucas did was to foul a player in midfield - why?
benayoun cost us with that stupid in the corner tackle - why?
and babel hardly got a look in - not enough time for him to make an impact

Those tactical changes were wrong last night. Other times it may have worked. too many errors of late, and now we have 5 draws on the bounce at home. Hardly championship winning form!!

However, we are still in with a shout, and we wouldve taken equal top before the season started. If we match manure, then by virtue of beating them at old trafford will hand us the league - easy (lol)

by **lakes10** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:12 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:"Your opinion and your entitled to it.

Is it exclusive to "great Managers" this winning the league thing is it ?

Also - defin great managers, and give examples"

I think I mentioned three in the post?

I want the manger of LFC to be a great manager. The best. I would love to be able to say that about Rafa but I can't and I honestly don't think I ever will. We can all see by now how he manages and what his strengths and weaknesses are.
Maybe you don't have to be a 'great' manager to win the title? But name me someone who has and say it's not a 'great' achievement? To win it you have to be the best. Would you agree?

So Wenger is a great manager as he has won the LEague ?

But he is not a true great for not winning in Europe ?

Is this hte same about Mourinho ? Did he not buy the league ?

Furgeson - I will give you that, its a no brainer.

IS hte Spanish league the same as (ie on a par with) the Premiership ? IF so does someone who has won that league with a not os fashionable side against hte might of Barcelona AND Real MAdrid qualify ?

come on, This is Liverpool mate, the league was always our main thing, Yes Raffa has won other stuff but do you think he can win us what matters, The league?

by **devaney** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:47 pm

I hate to criticise a man who made May 2005 great !! But Rafa has spent the same as Ferguson over 4 seasons up to the beginning of this season which was £24.5m a year and that is taking into account what he has sold. Just what have we got apart from Torres, Alonso,Rierra and Skrtel. Masch - is he worth £20m - certainly not the player he was last year. Keane - just awful and a complete waste of money. Kuyt - works hard but now that the goals have dried up just what have we got? Pennant, Babel, Dossena, Cav,Lucas and Benayoun are just not worth of the red shirt.

Does this look like the transfer record of a title winning manager?

Josemi Rey Malaga £2,000,000 26.07.2004
Antonio Nunez Real Madrid £1,500,000* 17.08.2004
Luis Garcia Barcelona £6,000,000 20.08.2004
Xabi Alonso Real Sociedad £10,700,000 20.08.2004
Mauricio Pellegrino Valencia Free 05.01.2005
Fernando Morientes Real Madrid £6,300,000 13.01.2005
Scott Carson Leeds United £1,000,000 21.01.2005
Antonio Barragan Sevilla £240,000 04.07.2005
Boudewijn Zenden Free Transfer Free* 04.07.2005
Jose Reina Villareal £6,000,000 04.07.2005
Mohamed Sissoko Valencia £5,600,000 14.07.2005
Peter Crouch Southampton £7,000,000 20.07.2005
Godwin Antwi Real Zaragoza Unknown 15.08.2005
Miki Roque Lleida Unknown 15.08.2005
Jack Hobbs Lincoln City £150,000* 18.08.2005
Besian Idrizaj LASK Linz £190,000* 22.08.2005
Mark Gonzalez Albacete £1,500,000* 20.10.2005
Paul Anderson Hull City Player Exchange* 01.01.2006
Jan Kromkamp Villareal Player Exchange* 04.01.2006
Daniel Agger Brøndby £5,800,000 12.01.2006
David Martin MK Dons £250,000* 12.01.2006
Robbie Fowler Man City Free 27.01.2006
Craig Bellamy Blackburn £6,000,000 01.07.2006
Gabriel Paletta Club Atlético Banfield £2,000,000 04.07.2006
Fábio Aurélio Valencia Free 05.07.2006
Jermaine Pennant Birmingham £6,700,000 26.07.2006
Dirk Kuyt Feyenoord £9,000,000 18.08.2006
Nabil El Zhar St Etienne £200,000 21.08.2006
Astrit Ajdarevic Falkenberg £750,000* 11.01.2007
Daniele Padelli Sampdoria On Loan* 12.01.2007
Jordy Brouwer Ajax Undisclosed* 24.01.2007
Francisco Durán Malaga £66,000* 30.01.2007
Ronald Huth Tacuary FC Undisclosed 31.01.2007
Álvaro Arbeloa Deportivo £2,500,000 31.01.2007
Javier Mascherano West Ham On Loan 20.02.2007
Lucas Leiva Gremio £5,000,000 11.05.2007
Mikel San José Domínguez Athletic Bilbao £270,000 28.06.2007
Sebastian Leto Club Atlético Lanús £1,800,000 01.07.2007
Fernando Torres Atletico Madrid £20,200,000 04.07.2007
Andriy Voronin Leverkusen Free* 06.07.2007
Yossi Benayoun West Ham £5,000,000 12.07.2007
Ryan Babel Ajax £11,500,000 13.07.2007
Charles Itandje Lens Undisclosed 09.08.2007
Emiliano Insúa Boca Juniors £1,300,000* 26.08.2007
Martin Skrtel Zenit St Petersburg £6,500,000 11.01.2008
Javier Mascherano Media Sports Investment £17,000,000 29.02.2008
Philipp Degen Dortmund Free* 03.07.2008
Andrea Dossena Udinese £7,000,000 04.07.2008
Diego Cavalieri Palmeiras £3,500,000 11.07.2008
David Ngog Paris St Germain £1,500,000 24.07.2008
Robbie Keane Tottenham £19,000,000* 28.07.2008
Albert Riera Espanyol £8,000,000 31.08.2008

Rafael Benítez bought 52 players for £190,616,000

Markus Babbel VfB Stuttgart Free 16.07.2004
Danny Murphy Charlton £2,500,000 10.08.2004
Michael Owen Real Madrid £8,500,000* 14.08.2004
Stephane Henchoz Celtic Free 28.01.2005
Vladimir Smicer Bordeaux Free 13.06.2005
El Hadji Diouf Bolton £3,500,000 15.06.2005
Mauricio Pellegrino Alaves Free* 17.06.2005
Alou Diarra Lens £2,000,000 23.06.2005
Mark Smyth Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
Paul Harrison Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
Richie Partridge Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
Patrice Luzi Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
Gregory Vignal Portsmouth Free* 01.07.2005
Igor Biscan Panathinaikos Free* 01.07.2005
Jon Otsemobor Rotherham United Free* 01.07.2005
Antonio Nunez Celta Vigo £2,000,000* 29.07.2005
Milan Baros Aston Villa £6,500,000 23.08.2005
John Welsh Hull City Player Exchange* 01.01.2006
Josemi Rey Villareal Player Exchange* 02.01.2006
Zak Whitbread Millwall £200,000 13.06.2006
Bruno Cheyrou Rennes Undisclosed 29.06.2006
Robbie Foy Unknown Free* 01.07.2006
David Raven Carlisle £0* 03.07.2006
Fernando Morientes Valencia £3,000,000 05.07.2006
Dietmar Hamann Bolton Free 11.07.2006
Antonio Barragan Deportivo £675,000 03.08.2006
Djimi Traore Charlton £2,000,000 09.08.2006
Carl Medjani Lorient Free 12.08.2006
Neil Mellor Preston £500,000 30.08.2006
Jan Kromkamp PSV Eindhoven £1,750,000 31.08.2006
Chris Kirkland Wigan Ath. £3,500,000* 27.10.2006
Darren Potter Wolves £250,000* 18.01.2007
Stephen Warnock Blackburn £1,500,000 22.01.2007
Salif Diao Stoke Free 25.01.2007
Florent S.-Pongolle Recreativo de Huelva £2,700,000 04.05.2007
Daniele Padelli Sampdoria Returns from loan 08.06.2007
Danny O' Donnell Crewe £100,000 13.06.2007
Jerzy Dudek Real Madrid Free* 01.07.2007
Boudewijn Zenden Marseille Free* 01.07.2007
Robbie Fowler Cardiff Free* 01.07.2007
Luis Garcia Atletico Madrid £4,000,000 03.07.2007
Djibril Cissé Marseille £6,000,000 09.07.2007
Craig Bellamy West Ham £7,500,000 10.07.2007
Mark Gonzalez Real Betis £3,500,000 17.07.2007
Gabriel Paletta Boca Juniors £1,200,000* 26.08.2007
James Smith Stockport Cou. Free 28.12.2007
Mohamed Sissoko Juventus £8,200,000 28.01.2008
Lee Peltier Yeovil Free* 31.01.2008
John Arne Riise AS Roma £4,000,000 01.07.2008
Harry Kewell Free Transfer Free 01.07.2008
Anthony Le Tallec Le Mans Undisclosed 02.07.2008
Peter Crouch Portsmouth £11,000,000* 11.07.2008
Danny Guthrie Newcastle £2,250,000 14.07.2008
Scott Carson WBA £3,250,000* 18.07.2008
Steve Finnan Espanyol Undisclosed* 31.08.2008

Rafael Benítez sold 55 players for £92,075,000

This season how many times have we looked convincing - very very few in my opinion and it is down to resources - NO WONDER Rafa TAKES A CAUTIOUS APPROACH WITH THAT LOT! I DISPAIR! And to think we blame the Yanks for everything and just look what we have spent ffs. No other clubs other than Chelsea have spent more and for what. I know we are second but where will we be in May?

by **KOPMATT** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:48 pm

Well most has been said that needs saying, just i though we barely turned up in the first half! The second we were far more direct and playing with alot more passion IMO, got the goal after Keane going off which in my mind tells me something, either he ain't up to it for us or he needs more time in a 4-4-2 to gel with Torres. However after our goal we sat back looked for the 1-0 that for me is inexscuseable in any game when your chasing the league title let alone a Derby game. We obviously then paid a dear price for that and dropped another 2 precious points.

What i will say though that disappointed me mostly though was the amount of Reds that were leaving long before the final whistle? This seems to be getting more and more and for the players to see their so called fans leaving so early can only have a negative effect on them.................again IMO.
I wasn't able to attend last nights game and let my friend have my ticket, but will be there for the Chelski game I won't leave until it's all over come win, lose, or draw, the team plays for 90mins + and we should support them until the final whistle, not 85 mins.

by **Redbilly1960** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:04 pm

I said before the game an ugly 1-0 will do and until 87th minute it was more a grotesque 1-0 but as soon a Rafa made the first substition I had a gut feeling it was going to go t1ts up we do it everytime we go 1-0 up we sit back the ball goes sideways or back never forward. The bitters wanted a result more than we did and they were better (or were we worse) at 1-0. I don't blame Benayoun for the goal he aint no right back and any tackle made was going to be clumsy. You could blame the zonal marking but I think Cahill was just to clever you could see even before the free kick was taken he was on his toes and knew what he was upto.
I have been saying (not here) for weeks Rafa will go come the summer he has like GH taken us as far as he can and as much as it pains me, the league is just beyond his fingertips.
I think he will go to Real Madrid in the Summer with the aim of getting them closer to Barca.
I know its not over and it only takes the mancs to slip up once but it also needs Liverpool not to slip up at all.
DAMN THE OVER WEIGHT WOMAN IS CLEARING HER VOICE

by **stmichael** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:12 pm

devaney wrote:Rafa has spent the same as Ferguson over 4 seasons up to the beginning of this season which was £24.5m a year

Does it not occur to you that they were miles ahead of us when Rafa came in? Our squad had so much dross it was embarassing. If over that time the two squads have spent roughly the same how exactly are we supposed to significantly close the gap? They spend £15m+ on players who aren't even first team regulars (Hargreaves, Nani, Anderson, Carrick). They'll have to stump up £32m for Tevez who can't get in the team. Hell they've just brought two teenagers for £16m ffs.

We on the other hand have spent a lot but have had to recoup a lot of this money through selling players. If we wanted Barry we would have had to sell Alonso. The Mancs don't have this problem. The likelihood is they'll cough up another £25m or so for Benzema next summer. Ok they may lose Ronaldo but it's not as if they desperately need the money. You just don't turn down £70m for a guy who's already made i pretty clear that he doesn't want to be there.

by **Ace Ventura** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:19 pm

Cant be bothered ready through the post mortem.

There are a couple of things that really bothered me last night.
I'll get the one about the manager out the way first.
Firstly just to say i was happy with the team, i think its close to the best we can put out, what he possibly should of done though is played the same team against Stoke last weekend considering Keane hasnt been selected at all the previous week and when he has been selected it has mostly been in a different formation - not the managers fault that Torres has been injured but it would of helped to have given them a start together away at Stoke last week.
Anyways like i say i was happy with the starting line up it was positive.
What i am fuming about is the substitutions.
To be fair to Rafa it was difficult who to take off first between Keane and Riera as they were both woeful, so am not bothered about Keane being dragged off this time around - he was poor whether thats due to the way he has been treated previously is another matter, he deserved to come off last night.
The one that bothered me most was Torres for Lucas, i know there was only about 6 minutes left but it just smacks of us hanging on for dear life when we were not before the change.
Now Torres did look shattered, he has just come back from a long injury and worked his erse off. So it wasnt the taking him off, it was who it was for. He should of at least brought on Babel for Torres and asked him to stay up top and keep them pegged back a bit.
What he effectively did in taking Keane and Torres off leaving just Kuyt as the only recognised striker on the pitch is surrendered territory, as Kuyt drops too deep most of the time.
So the last 6 minutes we invited them on, now we are a good side usually backs against the wall defending for dear life, but did we need to be ?
I dont think so, he should of trusted the players more, he should of brought an attacker on for an attacker and been positive, we allowed them to put pressure on us when they didnt really seem to have any more ideas left.

The goal itself though was all our own fault, firstly the stupid challenge from Benayoun to give away the free kick, it was clear that we were not comfortable with crosses into the box so giving away a free kick in a dangerous area right at the death was clumsy to put it mild.
Then the defending ?? if you can call it that, i know we mark zonally but whoever is in Cahills zone surely needs to be awake. He had threatened a few times in the air earlier so it was no great surprise that he would get on the end of something.

On a positive side apart from his miss was made up with Torres, he looked really lively and there were signs of him getting back to form.
Negatives - Keane, was abysmal and its a real concern the lack of striking options.
It doesnt look great on the transfer front but if we have any money in this window we need to be looking to bring in a striking option.
Not going into names, its been done to death but we clearly need further options/possibilities - rafa's favourite word in the past.

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