Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:12 am

I did say in the topic starter, "leaving aside who's fault it is" that keane is surrently rubbish. It's really not that important right at this moment if it's Keane's fault, Rafa's fault or my fault. Assuming Torres isn't going to play 90 minutes in every single match from now on though, who are we going to play up top when he's off? I should think that 4-5-1 will be the preferred option from now on with Gerrard off the front man, so who do we play while Torres has a bit fo rest from time, or perish the thought he gets injured?

Seeing Keane this morning, he looks like a bloke who has the Worlds problems on his shoulders. If you were to pick him in the next game, how do you think he'd go? FWIW I definately would pick him in the FA Cup match. It's nowhere near so important and you never know, something might happen for him. I'd pick him up top and rest Torres but that's another story.

But in all honesty, I've about as much confidence in the possibility of him turning in any decent performances soon as he appears to have.

I really do think we ought to consider a panic buy striker, for the rest of the season at least.

by **andy_g** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:13 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ciggy wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:So is it therefore ALL down to Rafa that Torres and Gerrard are so good - after all he plays htem wll the time when htey are fit.

These players need to feel the love dont they.

Torres and Gerrard are world class players and would be the same in any team no matter who their manager was.

So then surely KEane would be a good player no matter who his manager was ?

You cant have it both ways - if its Rafa's fault we do one thing, its got to be him who is responsible for our success in another area.

Fickle.

different players react in different ways and a good man manager will see to it that he gets the best out of all his players. unfortunately i don't think benitez is a particularly good man manager.

by **Sir Roger** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:19 am

Rafa did a similar thing with Crouch. Backed him then froze him out. After he was leading goalscorer for club and country. I wonder what's gone on with Keane?

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:19 am

andy_g wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ciggy wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:So is it therefore ALL down to Rafa that Torres and Gerrard are so good - after all he plays htem wll the time when htey are fit.

These players need to feel the love dont they.

Torres and Gerrard are world class players and would be the same in any team no matter who their manager was.

So then surely KEane would be a good player no matter who his manager was ?

You cant have it both ways - if its Rafa's fault we do one thing, its got to be him who is responsible for our success in another area.

Fickle.

different players react in different ways and a good man manager will see to it that he gets the best out of all his players. unfortunately i don't think benitez is a particularly good man manager.

Again - your opinion.

A managers job is to influence performance - nothing more and nothing less.

The "not a good man manager" card is impossible to play unless you have been on the board, in hte changing room and at MElwood.

The only person I would listen to is a player - and I am pretty sure I read Carra dismiss the not a good man manager line in his book - I will try and find hte quotes later.

by **stmichael** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:24 am

We should never have got rid of Crouch. I suppose in the end it was Crouch's decision to leave but to be quite honest with you, Rafa's treatment of him was nothing short of a disgrace. I suppose the CL final in 2007 was the prime example of this. If you looked at the bench last night, with Torres and Keane both off, we had f#ck all to change the game. Babel could possibly be used upfront but it's extremely unlikely and El Zhar and Ngog are young and unproven at this level. Ok Crouch wasn't treated fairly by Rafa, but it never stopped him showing his class whenever he played. That's the difference. CLASS. Unfortunately, Keane doesn't have enough of it to be a Liverpool player.

Now I'm not Heskey's biggest fan but if we could get him for cheap he could do a decent job short term and at least provide an alternative to what we have. Nobody will ever convince me that Kuyt is good enough and Heskey would bring more out of those around him aswell. Owen is also a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned from a football perspective but just wouldn't fit in to our preferred system. We need to get back to 4-2-3-1 as soon as possible.

by **bigmick** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:27 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:The "not a good man manager" card is impossible to play unless you have been on the board, in hte changing room and at MElwood.

Not sure I totally agree with that one Leon. It's fair that nobody could know for certain, but you can have an educated guess based on how players perform.

It's fair to say for instance based on what we can see that martin O Neil is a good man manager. You could equally argue that perhaps he isn't tactiucally astute (I wouldn't necessarily agree but you could argue it) but judging from how he gets players to perform, he's a good man manager. Cloughie was, Ferguson is, Mourinho is.

You don't need to be in the dressing room to know that, you can see it with your eyes and from the way the players perform.

I'm not necessarily saying that Rafa isn't any good at it, but some people are very good at it and the effects are fairly obvious.

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:27 am

stmichael wrote:We should never have got rid of Crouch. I suppose in the end it was Crouch's decision to leave but to be quite honest with you, Rafa's treatment of him was nothing short of a disgrace. I suppose the CL final in 2007 was the prime example of this. If you looked at the bench last night, with Torres and Keane both off, we had f#ck all to change the game. Babel could possibly be used upfront but it's extremely unlikely and El Zhar and Ngog are young and unproven at this level. Ok Crouch wasn't treated fairly by Rafa, but it never stopped him showing his class whenever he played. That's the difference. CLASS. Unfortunately, Keane doesn't have enough of it to be a Liverpool player.

Now I'm not Heskey's biggest fan but if we could get him for cheap he could do a decent job short term and at least provide an alternative to what we have. Nobody will ever convince me that Kuyt is good enough and Heskey would bring more out of those around him aswell. Owen is also a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned from a football perspective but just wouldn't fit in to our preferred system. We need to get back to 4-2-3-1 as soon as possible.

Crouch showing his "class" at Portsmouth is he ?

Peter Crouch was just what we needed at the time, but ultimatley he is not good enough.

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:37 am

bigmick wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:The "not a good man manager" card is impossible to play unless you have been on the board, in hte changing room and at MElwood.

Not sure I totally agree with that one Leon. It's fair that nobody could know for certain, but you can have an educated guess based on how players perform.

It's fair to say for instance based on what we can see that martin O Neil is a good man manager. You could equally argue that perhaps he isn't tactiucally astute (I wouldn't necessarily agree but you could argue it) but judging from how he gets players to perform, he's a good man manager. Cloughie was, Ferguson is, Mourinho is.

You don't need to be in the dressing room to know that, you can see it with your eyes and from the way the players perform.

I'm not necessarily saying that Rafa isn't any good at it, but some people are very good at it and the effects are fairly obvious.

So wwas Rafa a good mana manager up until the Stoke game ?

We had us top like, and got the best out of some players.

Or how about Istanbul. (I think this was Carras point too). Look at the team, Traore, Baros, Cisse, Biscan, Smicer, Mellor, Nunez, LE Tallac, Welsh et all all played a part in the run in to the final, against Juventus, Chelsea, Bayer LEverkusen and Milan.

Look at the games against Olympiakos and in Barcelona - this was not good man management ? Or was it the players that did it and Rafa was just in the right in the place.

by **bigmick** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:39 am

He wasn't good enough to keep Torres out of the team, and he wasn't as good at playing off Torres as Gerrard is. I'd take him right now though is a heartbeat, and his scoring record for Portsmouth after a slow start is pretty good. By all accounts, his overall play has been top class.

The trouble was with Crouch that he was too good to sit on the bench for game after game. Unfortunately that problem would still apply.

by **kazza** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:41 am

Keane does not like to play against teams that defend 10 men behind the ball and has trouble finding space against defensive teams (either from a lack of skill or pace or a bit of both). He scored against Arsenal and a couple against Newcastle when they came out and attacked. He is a counter-attacking striker and needs space in front of him to play well which he does not get against defensive teams.

Blaming Raffa for his form and missed chances is laughable! The next attacking team we play he will probably score.

As for who I want to replace him is a creative second striker that can unlock these defensive teams. Winning the prem probably depends on it and they should break the bank to get one, we are so close and need that finishing touch.

by **metalhead** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:45 am

Yes we need a new striker, but not heskey

by **bigmick** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:45 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:So wwas Rafa a good mana manager up until the Stoke game ?

We had us top like, and got the best out of some players.

Or how about Istanbul. (I think this was Carras point too). Look at the team, Traore, Baros, Cisse, Biscan, Smicer, Mellor, Nunez, LE Tallac, Welsh et all all played a part in the run in to the final, against Juventus, Chelsea, Bayer LEverkusen and Milan.

Look at the games against Olympiakos and in Barcelona - this was not good man management ? Or was it the players that did it and Rafa was just in the right in the place.

I don't think Rafa was a good man manager until the Stoke game no, and I'm surprised you've gotten hold of this point. He says himself he likes to keep a distance from players, Gerrard has said the same as have many others. He may well be a good manager (and I think that's probably what the Istanbul success is down to) but I'd be surprised if even he would lay claim to be top drawer at man management.

Still it's unproveable either way so there seems little point in arguing about it. Your opinion seems to be that he is a very good man manager, whilst other seem to think he isn't which is fair enough.

My point was that I don't the card is "impossible to play unless you're at Melwood", I think it's quite possible to form an opinion one way or another based on how players respond to him.

by **stmichael** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:50 am

metalhead wrote:Yes we need a new striker, but not heskey

Got any suggestions then?

I ask because there's nobody out there. January is a really poor time to buy and the top clubs, especially the big four hardly ever buy in this window. All the best players are cup-tied and everyone ends up paying over the odds for players as they become desperate.

by **Ciggy** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:53 am

The reason he comes across a bit cold is the lack of celebration when we score he looks at his watch, if a player plays really well other managers put an arm around them after the game or when they come off the pitch.
The only time Ive seen rafa celebrate a victory was at Goodison last season and on the pitch in Istanbul.

by **metalhead** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:53 am

stmichael wrote:
metalhead wrote:Yes we need a new striker, but not heskey

Got any suggestions then?

I ask because there's nobody out there. January is a really poor time to buy and the top clubs, especially the big four hardly ever buy in this window. All the best players are cup-tied and everyone ends up paying over the odds for players as they become desperate.

I'd stick to 4-5-1 now, Torres as lone striker until the summer to get another quality striker..erm.. like Tevez, who may actually leave

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Given that keane is currently rubbish.. - Do we need a new striker?

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