Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:14 pm

As BB explained perfectly you have to buy smart, and this summer has not been very smart. About the 5 years of Rafa's project, I cannot say the players he has brought haven't been smart moves, when it comes to the top players we have.

One thing must be said, buying smart with less money is not easy (1). Due to the multiple sackings of managers in Spain I have seen a few managers. And almost none of them get right all their decissions, that's impossible. The exception of this rule is John Benjamin Toshack. I can't remember a signing of his that was bad. He's got a exceptional eye for that. He's antirotationist too. So there you have a smart buyer, an antirotationist, and a man who knows and loves Liverpool through and through.

Seems perfect no?

The problem is that I have seen Toshack's training sessions too. He doesn't believe in goal coaches. He doesn't believe in physical coaches. He wants the total control of the training sessions. He'll use the youth system against the population's beliefs. He'd use Insua a lot earlier than Rafa. And we'd see his tactical book from the eighties too, Toshack was the one who still believed in sweepers in the nineties.

My point is simple. If you want a non rotationist and a smart buyer, Toshack is one. But I don't think he's the man for Liverpool in year 2009.

If you want smart buyers, and modern coaches, that's a difficult equation, as I have seen very few men getting right every decission. We'd have our share of Dossennas too. (And probably Keanes, because Toshack also liked Keane's signing)

(1) And Spanish teams that have the philosophy of buying cheap, selling expensive, stay in primera 3-4 years pretty well, then when one "bad summer of signings" come, they get relegated.

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:12 pm

Sabre wrote:But the thread is about progress, and this is where a view with more perspective is needed, as in, look where we were when Rafa came, and look where we are right now.

And I think we have done not some, but a huge progress. Now we expect the league 5 years ago we couldn't do that reallistically. IN the Europe front, reaching semifinals and finals, should say something, but no, it seems it's an easy competition, I'm just sticking to the concept of challenging for the league title (a competition that seems to be getting easier as Rafa gets the hang of it too).

Some will tell you that if we don't rotate you'll have more chances to win the league. I won't discuss that, but make no mistake, if you play the same 11 thugs every week with little rest and they're mediocre, you won't win the league.

You could be waiting another 19 years.

It's the Reinas, it's the Alonsos, It's the Mascheranos, It's the Gerrards, it's the Torres what makes you win leagues. And just as it's a fact Rafa got wrong some signings in the summer, it's a fact Rafa brought those players (bar the captain), and more importantly, those players want to stay in this team.

We don't have our best players wishing to go, and that means they believe in the project. For progress you need to improve your squad. Before Rafa we had Gerrard and Owen wanting to leave. With Rafa we have quality players surrounding Gerrard and wanting to stay.

Once made clear that there's not some but a huge progress, we could adress the question "is it quick enough?".

Well, before Rafa we had been waiting 15 years to challenge seriously, with Rafa we're reaching that position at the end of his project.

If someone is tempted to make some tinkering and chopping with the managers, let's do so. It seems that we're going to see what happens after all because Rafa hasn't accepted the new contract. We'll know how good are the Klinsmanns, and the Hiddinks (funny this one who I like his style but coached no top clubs from ages ago). But I think it would be a mistake.

Let's see how we do with another not rotating manager, and let's see how people explain why we're not challenging if the worst happens. There will be good and lengthy explanations, of that, I'm pretty sure.

Progress. Well we agree on much, in the thread title and in the starting post I make the assumption there has been progress. It would be silly to pretend otherwise, the team we have now is far better than the one which won the Champions League.

The Champions League though? Yes we've improved there for sure. Rafa is tactically a master at the two leg knockout format. Equally, the fact that we've been out of contention domestically by November each season has meant we've been able to concentrate our resources in Europe. Very few people on here I shouldn't think would dispute that Rafa is a top quality manager in European competition.

As for how "easy" it is, well the debate's been done before so no real point in rehashing it here. Avram Grant came within a penalty kick of winning it last season though so it's not always the case that the most celebrated managers progress in it. Usually the English clubs reach at least the quarters etc etc etc, it's all been done before. Anyhow, In Europe there is no dispute, Rafa has done very well.

I'm glad that Rafa is "getting the hang of" the league after five seasons though Sabes. I agree with you there and it's most encouraging. I'm not absolutely sure that the competition as a whole is getting "easier", although I am certain that it's a fairly weak Premiership this season. Once again it's a debate which has been done to death, but by "weaker" I mean you wouldn't have to be as good a team to win it this season as you would in most seasons over the last ten years. This is handy, because we aren't the best team which has played in it over the last ten years, but once again I say for the benefit of stalkers, it doesn't matter. If we win it, we win it. As the Australians say, winners are grinners and the rest can please themselves.

"Some will tell you that if we don't rotate you'll have more chances to win the league". They are idiots.

"Make no mistake, if you play the same 11 thugs every week with no rest and they're mediocre, you won't win the league". Precisely. Anybody who thinks you can play the same team every single weak is a fool, equally if you fill the team with thugs you won't win the league. I couldn't agree more. I think 19 years is conservative, nobody has ever won the league by playing the same team in every single match.

I must learn this multi quote thing, but I'll come back to the second bit in a minute.

by **Sabre** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:19 pm

"Some will tell you that if we don't rotate you'll have more chances to win the league". They are idiots.

Come and blast me if you wish, the longer the footie rant, the better for me. Honest.

But do not think that what I imply there is that you are an idiot, and that's a big disclaimer.

It's aimed to you, obviously, it's meant with a bit of

intention, as you know I don't consider R a "key" factor, but I never wrote that with the intention to insult nor you, nor anyone.

I just want to make that clear because recently I've had a misunderstanding with another good poster because of the "tone" of my comments.

Now, please, post. And do not take too long breaks without posting. You're neded here.

"Make no mistake, if you play the same 11 thugs every week with no rest and they're mediocre, you won't win the league". Precisely. Anybody who thinks you can play the same team every single weak is a fool, equally if you fill the team with thugs you won't win the league. I couldn't agree more. I think 19 years is conservative, nobody has ever won the league by playing the same team in every single match.

And about that point, what I actually meant is that much more important than the rotation level you may apply, it's to gather top class players in the squad, and giving that squad quality.

Without quality, you can rotate more or less: no good.

*I wasn't implying you or anybody advocate to not make changes at all*. Just in case. I know perfectly that from the rotation thread.

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:31 pm

Sabre wrote:It's the Reinas, it's the Alonsos, It's the Mascheranos, It's the Gerrards, it's the Torres what makes you win leagues. And just as it's a fact Rafa got wrong some signings in the summer, it's a fact Rafa brought those players (bar the captain), and more importantly, those players want to stay in this team.

We don't have our best players wishing to go, and that means they believe in the project. For progress you need to improve your squad. Before Rafa we had Gerrard and Owen wanting to leave. With Rafa we have quality players surrounding Gerrard and wanting to stay.

Once made clear that there's not some but a huge progress, we could adress the question "is it quick enough?".

Well, before Rafa we had been waiting 15 years to challenge seriously, with Rafa we're reaching that position at the end of his project.

If someone is tempted to make some tinkering and chopping with the managers, let's do so. It seems that we're going to see what happens after all because Rafa hasn't accepted the new contract. We'll know how good are the Klinsmanns, and the Hiddinks (funny this one who I like his style but coached no top clubs from ages ago). But I think it would be a mistake.

Let's see how we do with another not rotating manager, and let's see how people explain why we're not challenging if the worst happens. There will be good and lengthy explanations, of that, I'm pretty sure.

The progress we have made is precisely because of the quality players the manager has bought, and because Gerrard has developed into being arguably the best player in the World today. The manager has no doubt had some input into that as well as he works with him every day, so all in all we agree that we have far better players than we used to have.

Equally, I agree that no manager gets it right every time. For every Eric Cantona there's always an Eric Djemba-Djemba, and nobodies perfect. Equally, our best players do seem to want to stay which is excellent, and I agree that they "believe in the project" by and large. I say by and large, because my suspicion is that both Gerrard and Carragher believe in the more eccentric aspects of styling a little less enthusiastically than some of the Spanish boys, but there it is anyway.

So we agree there's been progress, and I'll even concede "huge". I would have gone with "major" or "significant" but if you prefer huge, that's good by me.

And here we are five years in. We're now "starting to get the hang" of the league, we've drastically reduced the styling, and we're well and truly involved in the title race (we don't "expect" the league though, that was incorrect that bit).

Is it a decent return on the significant financial investment? I think it is actually yes.

Has it happened quickly enough? Probably not for me no. Had we not stuck to the styling with such grim determination for quite so long despite the overwhelming evidence that an alternative approach might be a better idea, I think we may have made an assault on the summit much sooner. We wouldn't be now so "inexperienced" and we'd have a better shot from here.

We are now though setting up base camp for a final push after five years of trying. The danger for me is that the weather up and around the summit this time around is just about as favourable as it's ever going to be, and if we don't get there this term it may become impassable in the future. Another Summer of 40 million quid spent for the improvement of Babel to Riera would see us needing an injection of cash unseen previously in English football in order to bridge the gap should say the Mancs be a better team next season than this. My guess is that they will be, and I'm absolutely convinced that Arsenal will be, Man City and in all probability Chelsea and Villa as well.

If it took us five years to get the hang of the idea that mass rotation from game one wasn't probably the best policy, how long will it take to work out that when it's locked up at 0-0 or 1-1, you've got to go absolutely all out for the win? The biggest shame of all is that everyone else doesn't just stand still while you improve past them, they get better too.

by **Sabre** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:41 pm

That's fair enough.

And I admit that perhaps "huge" was too happy clappy. So I downgrade my progress rate to "major".

I agree completely the first two paragraphs.

I also agree the criticism in the end: we can't afford many bad summer signings like this summers.

My fear is this, Mick. I consider the feel of a fan to sack a manager natural. I've been there. And I know it's difficult to change your mind. I'll never say things like not supporting the manager is lacking loyalty. That's bóllocks. The people usually loses faith in a manager and wants him sácked precisely because they think that's better for the club.

The thing is that sometimes, that makes us think that anyone could do the same, or better. And it's not always like that. Things can go terribly wrong, and people might remember these years of "slow" progress.

For instance, I got it wrong with Mourinho. I never rated him as a manager and I thought that without the money of Abrahamovich, he wouldn't be the especial one.

Evidence says however, that Scolari's Chelsea is weaker. And evidence says Mourinho is doing well in Italy. So I have to eat my own opinion, and admit I was wrong.

My fear is that something similar happens with Liverpool. That people sees the progress we make easy and for granted.

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:44 pm

Sabre wrote:Evidence says however, that Scolari's Chelsea is weaker. And evidence says Mourinho is doing well in Italy. So I have to eat my own opinion, and admit I was wrong.

.

Sorted, lets get Mourinho in then

DISCLAIMER-I'M ONLY JOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by **Sabre** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:51 pm

It would be a massive mistake.

I've made some simulations of the situation in my computer:

<Reina> Makes a joke
<Mourinho> Not funny. My jokes are funny. Yours are not.
<Carra> oi!! :angry:

<ununderstandable english> funny
<Mourinho> I'm the special one. you are not.
<Alonso> Eres un idiota
<Mourinho> I'm the boss.

For some reason, I think it's a big no no. I admit there are feelings in my opinion, whenever Rafa goes, I'll feel gratefulness. And to sign up one of the enemies that attacked him would make me feel as a traitor. But there you go.

The thing is that even bringing Mourinho and admitting he's doing well wherever he has gone as of late, you'd never know what would happen, whether he'd get along well to keep our top class players together (for me one of Rafa's success), it would be a gamble.

And that's where I'm a bit conservative, I preffer moderate progression rather than a gamble, as much as it's tempting.

by **redhayesy** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:35 am

s@int wrote:I think progress has been slow with perhaps one real backward step..... the summer signings after the FA Cup win back in 2006. Gerrard and Carra are probably at their peak now and there is only one way from there. Our progress was too slow for Sammi, I don't want to be still struggling for a title challenge AND having to replace Gerrard and Carra in a few seasons.

I don't believe we can continue to outspend the mancs year on year, so I think we need to try something a little different. I would reduce the size of the squad but improve the team. Yes we may have problems competing in all 4 competitions with a smaller squad, but we havent won much the last couple of years with a huge one .... have we? Get a nucleus of 14 or 15 top quality players instead of a squad of 25 + and maybe we can still outspend the mancs......where it counts on the first team.
Citeh seem certain to be added to the mix next season, Villa could well be pushing as well if they can hang onto their stars, things can only get harder imo. This could be the best chance we have for years.

It just seems to me we are playing into the mancs hands the way we are buying at the moment. We buy a £20million player....... they can buy a £30million one. While we spend millions more on swopping one average player just to be replaced by another player of similar average abilities. Riise and Dossena for example (sorry Riise), rather than paying for the top quality we need. There is an old saying ....buy cheap and pay twice.

If we don't push out all the stops now, it may be too late in a couple of years.

Maybe we will have to cut back on how much we are investing in youth in the short term as well. Once we have the first team in place...... then invest heavily in youth.

Think of the team we could have now if we had just had the money to close the deals.

Reina

Alves Carra Vidic Aurelio

Simao Gerrard Masch Barry

Torres Villa

With Aguero on the bench

what no alonso in the team- shame on you! :;):

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:05 am

redhayesy wrote:
s@int wrote:I think progress has been slow with perhaps one real backward step..... the summer signings after the FA Cup win back in 2006. Gerrard and Carra are probably at their peak now and there is only one way from there. Our progress was too slow for Sammi, I don't want to be still struggling for a title challenge AND having to replace Gerrard and Carra in a few seasons.

I don't believe we can continue to outspend the mancs year on year, so I think we need to try something a little different. I would reduce the size of the squad but improve the team. Yes we may have problems competing in all 4 competitions with a smaller squad, but we havent won much the last couple of years with a huge one .... have we? Get a nucleus of 14 or 15 top quality players instead of a squad of 25 + and maybe we can still outspend the mancs......where it counts on the first team.
Citeh seem certain to be added to the mix next season, Villa could well be pushing as well if they can hang onto their stars, things can only get harder imo. This could be the best chance we have for years.

It just seems to me we are playing into the mancs hands the way we are buying at the moment. We buy a £20million player....... they can buy a £30million one. While we spend millions more on swopping one average player just to be replaced by another player of similar average abilities. Riise and Dossena for example (sorry Riise), rather than paying for the top quality we need. There is an old saying ....buy cheap and pay twice.

If we don't push out all the stops now, it may be too late in a couple of years.

Maybe we will have to cut back on how much we are investing in youth in the short term as well. Once we have the first team in place...... then invest heavily in youth.

Think of the team we could have now if we had just had the money to close the deals.

Reina

Alves Carra Vidic Aurelio

Simao Gerrard Masch Barry

Torres Villa

With Aguero on the bench

what no alonso in the team- shame on you!

He was sold when we bought Barry mate ..... sorry

by **Dalglish** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:09 am

One of the best threads on here for some time...............

The fact that we are in January and STILL talking about the possibility of winning the title should be suffcient evidence that progress has indeed been made.

I'll be absolutly honest with you , I'm shitting myself because for the first time since maybe 1996 I actually believe we might just be in with a shout of winning the Holy Grail !

by **Dundalk** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:13 am

True and every weekend is exciting, nearly every top match.

A season or two ago we were on the look out for Evertons and maybe Arsenals results to see if we would finish fourth, this season its all about the top and it has a different feel to it all together.

Long may it continue

by **Dalglish** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:17 am

Amen to that Brother

Some people on here need to cast their minds back and remember the days when we were chasing Everton and hoping to pip them for 4th FFS !

I suppose with progress comes increased expectation and I accept that but IMO it's a lot more nerve wracking when your reaching for the skies and 1st than hoping that we make the CL and 4th !

by **kazza** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:34 am

Rafa Benitez has turned down the new contract offered to him by Premier League leaders Liverpool.

The Spaniard, who has been at the helm of the Anfield outfit since June 2004, has been considering the deal proposed to him by club owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett.

Benitez confirmed last week that an agreement had been reached over the length of his contract and the salary.

But a stumbling block has emerged with the former Valencia boss unwilling to answer to the club's chief executive - a role currently held by Rick Parry - in relation to on-field matters and transfer policy.

Benitez told the Liverpool Echo: "The owners feel that the manager's decisions need to be subject to the chief executive.

"But I know that I am subject to results and to our fans and they are the best judges I will ever have.

"I have a lot of experience in football at different clubs and if you do not have a technical director and you are the manager you have to have control of the football decisions. But always within the confines of a budget which is controlled by the owners and the club.

"In this scenario the manager knows the amount money he has available to him and can decide how much he should spend on each player according to the needs of the team.

"The only person who can decide the value of a player to his squad is the manager because he knows what elements are needed to improve the squad."

Supportive
Benitez insists that his decision is no reflection on his relationship with Gillett and Hicks, and that he is not attempting to secure improved terms.

He is also determined that the Reds' Premier League title bid, which continues with a Merseyside derby against Everton on Monday night, must not be overshadowed.

"My relationship with the owners is better than people think," he added. "I have regular contact with them and especially with Tom Hicks who has always been very supportive.

"The talks between my agent and the advisers of the owners have been very positive and friendly and our differences are about my responsibilities.

"I have to say again that this is not about financial gain. This is not a way to get more money. This is solely about being allowed to manage Liverpool football club to the best of my abilities as I see them.

"I believe that this club has the potential to improve and I just want to be able to help this to happen. I will continue to do my job as manager and concentrate on the thing that our fans want me to focus on - winning trophies for them.

"From the first day I came to the club I have only ever given 100 per cent and I will continue to do this.

"We have a very important game coming up against Everton on Monday night and now I just want to be able to concentrate only on this."

Development
Benitez feels that he should be given more input into the club's academy and is keen to see more home-grown talent emerge.

Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher both came through the ranks at Anfield and the Spaniard is keen to see more youngsters emerge on Merseyside.

He said: "I believe the academy is a very important part of the future of the club. The length of the contract was already agreed and this showed my long term commitment to the club.

"I know the academies of Ajax, Real Madrid, Barcelona, AC Milan and Valencia and they are producing players regularly.

"The way the system works there means the manager has an input into development and I think this could be the way forward here and we would hope that this would help us make better use of local talent."

******************

So what I am reading from this is Raffa is saying that if he is the one that will be held accountable from the fans then he wants to be responsible for all decisions made (ie no Parry interference). This is probably why Keane "hardly" plays as Raffa may not have wanted him. As I have said many times, we cannot properly comment as we do not have all the facts.

Is there a reason we do not use the "Our Progress Under Raffa" thread which documents the changing opinion of members and is a better timeline of events

"Is it quick enough" is not is not really a different discussion.

by **bigmick** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:52 am

kazza wrote:So what I am reading from this is Raffa is saying that if he is the one that will be held accountable from the fans then he wants to be responsible for all decisions made (ie no Parry interference). This is probably why Keane "hardly" plays as Raffa may not have wanted him. As I have said many times, we cannot properly comment as we do not have all the facts.

Is there a reason we do not use the "Our Progress Under Raffa" thread which documents the changing opinion of members and is a better timeline of events "Is it quick enough" is not is not really a different discussion.

I predicted on here about a month ago that it wouldn't be long before people were claiming that Keane wasn't Rafa's choice but Parry's, and it comes to pass. Presumeably Parry has become an officionado of Serie A as well and was responsible for the signing of Dossena.

As for the other Rafa thread, I don't read it or at least haven't recently so I thought I'd start a new one. Hopefully this one has raised a few fresh and debateable points, one respected member commented that it was the best thread on here in quite some time so that's something at least.

"Is it quick enough" as you paraphrase it Kaz though is an interesting point I think. If you get the time and can find the inclination, read it through again and I'm sure you'll agree there has been some good debate in it. Your own point about Rafa not playing Keane because he "may not have wanted him" is without question one of the more interesting opinions which have come up.

by **bigmick** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:00 am

I know there has been a kind of two camp mentality on here for the best part of two seasons now, and that both camps accuse the other of being more abusive, more argumentitive, more ridiculous etc etc. I ask you though in all seriousness, if a poster came on here and said that Rafa didn't deserve any credit for the signing of Torres as it was in all likelyhood down to Parry, how much abuse do you think he'd pick up (and absolutely rightly so). Does anybody seriously and honestly believe that knowing the manager as we have come so to do over the last five seasons, that he would stick around if the CEO was signing players who he didn't want for 20 million quid?

I know I've been accused (rightly) of being overly condescending, taking the p!ss etc etc but it's quite hard to take people seriously sometimes it really is.

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