Liverpool FC Forum

by **metalhead** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:59 pm

“The only person who can decide the value of a player to his squad is the manager because he knows what elements are needed to improve the squad.”

Exactly!

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:01 pm

metalhead wrote:sorry heimdall...

so why do you think the Barry thing didn't happen? is it because Parry said in a statement that he doesn't value Barry? so isn't he judging a player there? its not his job.

He was given funds yes, and we missed over 2 or 3 quality players over there because of Parry's stupidity and our slow movement in the transfer market. Vidic, Alves? ring any bells? now Barry?

This thing about Barry is an interesting one. I don't think it's quite as simple as Parry being a clown if you really look at it.

Firstly, had we signed Barry we would almost certainly have sold Xabi Alonso. Rafa was actively hawking Alonso around the major clubs of Europe trying to flog him off so we could get Barry in. Now hindsight has shown us (and some posters on here told us) that this would have been a huge mistake. I'm not saying for a moment that Parry put the block on the deal so therefore deserves the credit for Alonso staying, but neither does the manager either.

Secondly, and this is the reason you have a board and a CEO, it was legitimate given the fact that Rafa knew this was a make or break season for him personally, to scrutinise all prospective transfers. It was only natural that Rafa was going to spend big on "proven" Premiership quality, as he knew as well as we all did that no title challenge this season would have been curtains for him. Given that though, I think it's reasonable for the CEO to wiegh up the long term benefits of signing players in their late twenties for hugely inflated salaries and wages. It may well have fit in with Rafa's agenda to spend 40 million quid on two 28 year olds, but all things considered it's possible that it may not have been in the best interests of the club in the longer term.

History has told us of course that we actually blocked the wrong transfer (always assuming that Rafa would actually have put Barry in the team having bought him), but that's another story.

by **GYBS** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:04 pm

Mick you keep putting in every thread about players bought not being picked ie keane yet hasnt he played a lot of matches for us and in fact only 5 more players have played more minutes than him ? So he has been picked plenty of times.

by **Ciggy** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:08 pm

Bad Bob wrote:No matter which perspective you take on Rafa's decision, is there any possible scenario where this going to end well? I can't see it. FFS.

The whole situation stinks, the owners have to sell within 6 months, if rafa leaves now imagine the sh!t we would be in?
In the summer some of our players will want to follow Rafa.

Its one big giant mess I am sick of it.

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:09 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:At the end of the day, we did spend 40 million quid in the Summer which is quite a lot by anyones standards.

Not by Chelsea and United standards, the teams we are supposed to be competing with domestically.

I know it's been done hundreds of times, but isn't it the case that over the last two or three seasons we've just about matched in financial terms what man Utd and Chelsea have spent? I don't think either of them spent 40 million quid in the Summer did they (they may well have before anyone jumps all over me. Not getting British newspapers makes it difficult to keep track).

Whatever though, I think the point holds good and it's not really being sarcastic. I think the manager has been fairly well backed in the transfer market. He may not have got every single player he could wish for, but then few managers do.

On a slightly seperate note, I think from what he's saying that he is asking for the impossible. Even Ferguson doesn't hold a dictatorship over all things football in the sense that Rafa appears to be asking for. Anyway, it's not the first time that the press have been used as a bargaining and publicity tool, so I'm sure it'll all get sorted out in the end.

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:11 pm

bigmick wrote:
metalhead wrote:sorry heimdall...

so why do you think the Barry thing didn't happen? is it because Parry said in a statement that he doesn't value Barry? so isn't he judging a player there? its not his job.

He was given funds yes, and we missed over 2 or 3 quality players over there because of Parry's stupidity and our slow movement in the transfer market. Vidic, Alves? ring any bells? now Barry?

This thing about Barry is an interesting one. I don't think it's quite as simple as Parry being a clown if you really look at it.

Firstly, had we signed Barry we would almost certainly have sold Xabi Alonso. Rafa was actively hawking Alonso around the major clubs of Europe trying to flog him off so we could get Barry in. Now hindsight has shown us (and some posters on here told us) that this would have been a huge mistake. I'm not saying for a moment that Parry put the block on the deal so therefore deserves the credit for Alonso staying, but neither does the manager either.

Secondly, and this is the reason you have a board and a CEO, it was legitimate given the fact that Rafa knew this was a make or break season for him personally, to scrutinise all prospective transfers. It was only natural that Rafa was going to spend big on "proven" Premiership quality, as he knew as well as we all did that no title challenge this season would have been curtains for him. Given that though, I think it's reasonable for the CEO to wiegh up the long term benefits of signing players in their late twenties for hugely inflated salaries and wages. It may well have fit in with Rafa's agenda to spend 40 million quid on two 28 year olds, but all things considered it's possible that it may not have been in the best interests of the club in the longer term.

History has told us of course that we actually blocked the wrong transfer (always assuming that Rafa would actually have put Barry in the team having bought him), but that's another story.

To be fair Barry has been instrumental in Villa's rise, so the effect on both players has been visible.

Alonso has been back to his best BBUT was poor in the past 18 months before this season.

Swings and roundabouts for me on that one like.

by **Kash_Mountain** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:12 pm

Ciggy wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:No matter which perspective you take on Rafa's decision, is there any possible scenario where this going to end well? I can't see it. FFS.

The whole situation stinks, the owners have to sell within 6 months, if rafa leaves now imagine the sh!t we would be in?
In the summer some of our players will want to follow Rafa.

Its one big giant mess I am sick of it.

I'm sick to the back teeth with the clowns we have in management. H&G need to sell sooner then 6 months Ciggy, I'd say 2 months.

by **heimdall** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:13 pm

Bad Bob wrote:No matter which perspective you take on Rafa's decision, is there any possible scenario where this going to end well? I can't see it. FFS.

We could get a better manager, that would be a good outcome, not that I'm saying Rafa is terrible or anything.

Dives for cover into the fallout shelter as the nukes are fired.

by **supersub** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:13 pm

lakes10 wrote:well the echos report is better than what has just been said on Radio 5 live, they said he has told the club he will quite the club in Weeks if the contract is not to his and the fans needs.

classic lakes...cheesecakery would be proud :laugh:

by **Kash_Mountain** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:14 pm

heimdall wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:No matter which perspective you take on Rafa's decision, is there any possible scenario where this going to end well? I can't see it. FFS.

We could get a better manager, that would be a good outcome, not that I'm saying Rafa is terrible or anything.

Dives for cover into the fallout shelter as the nukes are fired.

Suggest a couple who are better right now.

by **GYBS** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:14 pm

Who is this better manager that we can realistically get ?

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:15 pm

GYBS wrote:Mick you keep putting in every thread about players bought not being picked ie keane yet hasnt he played a lot of matches for us and in fact only 5 more players have played more minutes than him ? So he has been picked plenty of times.

He has played a lot of matches for us yes. I think though that most people would probably conclude that if we were playing our best team, he wouldn't get in it. He doesn't even get in it when our star striker is injured as we'd rather move our best right midfielder out of position and stick him up front rather than play Keane. He doesn't get in the team when he's scored, and he doesn't complete a game when he starts one.

Some people may feel that Keane has been given enough chances and has made his bed and therefore should lie in it. I don't necessarily agree with that, but surely few would put him in their very best eleven, and nobody I shouldn't think would put him in Rafa's best eleven.

I only stick up for him because a) I think he's a good player and by a distance our best option up top when Torres is injured. b) after playing sh!t for months he's actually scored three goals in his last three league games and you never know, he might just score in the next one he plays in as well. c) We paid 20 million quid for him six months ago and it would be nice to think we hadn't completely spunked the cash.

by **heimdall** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:16 pm

metalhead wrote:
“The only person who can decide the value of a player to his squad is the manager because he knows what elements are needed to improve the squad.”

Exactly!

So Dossena, was he a good signing, wasn't he rafa's signing?
How about Degan?

or N'Gog

or that dodgy keeper?

or a £20 million striker who doesn't get a game recently?

All super signings, but yes rafa needs to be the dictator at Liverpool and control everything, some of you people are in cloud cuckoo land you really are.

by **Ciggy** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:22 pm

I bet this comes down to if City offer over £100million for Torres they could just go over Rafas head and sell him, and Rafa could do feck all about it.

There is noway on earth Rafa would be selling Agger for 7 million not a chance, if we wanted to buy Agger from a top club we would be talking 20 million +.

by **metalhead** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:25 pm

bigmick wrote:
metalhead wrote:sorry heimdall...

so why do you think the Barry thing didn't happen? is it because Parry said in a statement that he doesn't value Barry? so isn't he judging a player there? its not his job.

He was given funds yes, and we missed over 2 or 3 quality players over there because of Parry's stupidity and our slow movement in the transfer market. Vidic, Alves? ring any bells? now Barry?

This thing about Barry is an interesting one. I don't think it's quite as simple as Parry being a clown if you really look at it.

Firstly, had we signed Barry we would almost certainly have sold Xabi Alonso. Rafa was actively hawking Alonso around the major clubs of Europe trying to flog him off so we could get Barry in. Now hindsight has shown us (and some posters on here told us) that this would have been a huge mistake. I'm not saying for a moment that Parry put the block on the deal so therefore deserves the credit for Alonso staying, but neither does the manager either.

Secondly, and this is the reason you have a board and a CEO, it was legitimate given the fact that Rafa knew this was a make or break season for him personally, to scrutinise all prospective transfers. It was only natural that Rafa was going to spend big on "proven" Premiership quality, as he knew as well as we all did that no title challenge this season would have been curtains for him. Given that though, I think it's reasonable for the CEO to wiegh up the long term benefits of signing players in their late twenties for hugely inflated salaries and wages. It may well have fit in with Rafa's agenda to spend 40 million quid on two 28 year olds, but all things considered it's possible that it may not have been in the best interests of the club in the longer term.

History has told us of course that we actually blocked the wrong transfer (always assuming that Rafa would actually have put Barry in the team having bought him), but that's another story.

My main point BigMick about Barry is that the CEO shouldn't have a say in judging the players, his job and the owners is to devise a budget, give it to Rafa, tell him to do what he likes with it and if he needed more money, he should sell. When Rafa says he wants this player with X amount of money, the CEO goes with the manager, gives the check to the party, maybe negotiate on the fee and then pay.

Your point on CEO weighing up long term benefits. I disagree, its not his job

. But Lets say if the we did get two 28 year olds and proven premiership quality, then won the league in the short term, lets say twice in 3 years I do think many of us would forget the signings!

I do agree that many of us have argued that selling Alonso would have been a mistake, but others said if ''Rafa think it benefits the club, then why not'' , it comes down to the fans on rating Gareth Barry.

However, Parry went against the manager, told Rafa no because the CEO felt Barry won't benefit the team.

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