Liverpool FC Forum

by **Fo Dne** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:45 am

Right, well I'll start by saying that I think its a good time to change. Obviously we're in a good position now, but personally I don't believe the manager can take us any further and I don't for a second believe we have enough quality to win this league. Its United's league to throw away and thats the only chance I see us, (or Chelsea) for that matter of winning it. I actually think the standard of the league is so poor this year the likes of Villa and ourselves especially are benefitting from it immensley. Also if you look at other teams, Everton haven't played well at all and are in the top half, Arsenal aren't the side they were... van der Sar is a year older at United and Chelsea are in somewhat of a transitional period.

When it comes to our manager though there are things for me that just don't work. I'll break it down into sections and try to be as balanced as possible.

His handling of the press:

This is something I can't really complain about. Rafa often says the right things and makes the right noises. He occassionally makes out we were better than we were and places a bit to much emphasis on control of the game but he generally gets this side of management spot on for me. Very rarely does he lose his cool.

Man management:

Now this is a sticky point for me. I'm a big believer that a good man manager can get alot more out of players. I believe thats the key to Mourinho's successes.

Rafa on the other hand is very cold and professional (or so many have said). Now obviously with certain players that doesn't have an effect, but other players and more insecure players (and people) can find this approach hard to deal with. I also think this isn't the right way to bring through youth players. Obviously being like this can have its plus points, I like the way he tells players when they're doing something wrong, I like the way Gerrard and Carragher have said he's quick to point out flaws in their game, but I also find it weird he seems to offer little in the way of encouragement. I firmly believe this can cause alot of problems in this country due to culture and the bringing up of players etc etc.

Tactial knowledge:

Absoloutely world class. No question on the face of the earth he knows what player should be doing what and tactically understands how to use players and get the very best out of them. He also reads the pattern of a game well and knows how to change it using substitutes. The sign of a world class coach. Also, I've seen him myself on the training ground at Melwood, he's very very hands on and is always trying to explain to players what he wants from them on the pitch.

Tactical decisions:

Absoloutely baffling at times. Bringing on Lucas for Gerrard, dropping players after they score or play well. Bringing on defenders and midfielders when you need a goal, taking off players just to give other players minutes on the pitch, taking off players when you're losing who shouldn't be taken off, woeful team selections and refusing to sub players just because the hole ground is calling for it and his undying love for the rubbish that is "Dirky boy".

Signings:

In general poor to average. Some he's payed top money for and got top players, others he's payed top money for and got rubbish, others he's paid decent money for and got decent players. I'm not impressed with his signings in general. I don't think we've adequately replaced Sami with a better or equal player, I don't believe we've replaced Riise or Finnan with better or equal players and Carragher's still there. Riena was an unbelievable signing, Rafa's best. In midfield its only now that really we're looking like we have a good midfield again, I think Rieira is a good player along with Alonso and obviously Stevie, but its took him 3 years to improve the side in this area and I'm not sure I'd take Riera over a fit Kewell. We still need a right winger aswell. Upfront I don't have an issue with the Keane signing what so ever, we paid alot more than he's worth but we got a player I felt we needed (shame he's not being used). Through out the years though I'm not impressed.

I firmly believe if we had the players there Rafa could shape them into a side thats formidable, but leaving him to sign them I don't think we'll ever see this.

Ego:

I firmly believe this is costing us points aswell. At times we've seen him defend the indefensible, we've seen him make decisions just to prove he's the boss. We've seen him give players a game just because he can and wants to and seen him leave players out just because he feels he can. We've also seen him more than once make decisions just to :censored:

the crowd off (the Alonso for Mascherano sub the other week vs Fulham and the Keane decision yesterday). These things will ultimately cost us points over the season.

There is alot more but am tired, al finish it tomorrow chaps when I can type and think properly.

by **Thewaykokid** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:27 am

I slate him for not playing Keane......but thats more of a preference than an actual issue

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:44 am

that is a very fair and good post Stu. i agree with it totally.

by **kazza** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:57 am

At half time in Istanbul I am curious what you thought, odds are it was something along the lines of "we will lose 5-0"

by **Toffeehater** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:01 am

He pulled off a miracle in istanbul but how long more should he be given if he does not win us the league this season . If we are too far off , he should leave at the end of the season , as he's clearly not the right man for the job

by **RedEire** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:52 am

We cannot keep returning to Istanbul as a defense to Rafas' brilliance. It was a great achievement and something that will remain part of LFC history forever. However, it is now that we want Rafa to show his brilliance. The Premiership is the one that all the players want and the one the fans want.
We have to play the best players for every game. That necessarily does not mean playing them all in the preferred positions. Dossena is a liability - worse than Djimi Traore. We have an excellent player with Agger who could easily adapt to left back or Arbeloa could play left back (as he has done in past) and play Agger with Hyypia in middle and put Carra out right.
Either that or give Insua a chance - he could not be any worse than Dossena.
However are we again seeing Rafa trying to demonstrate "I'm the boss" policy where players are being left on the bench because of they want to play more and have said so in the press.
I firmly believe that we will not win PL and the sole reason is that (a) we are not playing a best 11 every game and (b) Rafa is too concerned with tactics and adapting the style of football to nullify opposition instead of just letting his team play football and letting the opposition worry about us.
Rafa whinges to the press when a team comes to Anfield and defends deep, and now he is complaining that yesterdays game was too open in the first half and his obvious tactics of holding midfield/lone striker were once again not right.

by **Owzat** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:18 am

Rafa's use of subs is poor and too predictable, not that starting with Mascherano and Alonso is a brilliant strategy at home against a side we need to be beating. His buys are rather hit and miss, the 'sly dig' at Kuyt aside there are mostly valid points made. I don't agree Rafa is a great tactician, he tends to try and out-tactic the opposition when often putting out our best side should be enough and he trips himself up. Yesterday Phil Brown had him stumped, although our defenders let the side down. If he is so great tactically then why do we draw too many games, nearly a quarter of all games under Rafa, and we've relied on comebacks a lot this season which also indicates either his starting tactics aren't good enough or the players aren't. So Gerrard, Alonso, Torres, Carragher, Reina, Mascherano, Riera etc aren't good enough? If that is so then how come I don't see many suggestions to sell them? Usually it's the soft targets like Kuyt, Babel, Lucas, Dossena etc who get scapegoated, apparently some think we'll raise enough by selling our unwanted "rubbish" to buy a quality player or two

Like any top club would come in for them or smaller clubs could pay what we'd want or need to do so

Riera as a possible exception, has Rafa signed anyone in the summer who's made an impact? £40m spent and not much to show for it, it is now when wise spending could have made a difference instead of half of it sitting on the bench watching us draw 2-2 at home to Hull.

Here's a statistic a lot on here won't like : We've drawn three or more home games in a row in the Premiership on FOUR occaisions. Every time previously the mancs have won the Premiership and the previous two occaisions are seasons we've enjoyed unbeaten starts. I believe the last (only?) time the mancs played in the Club World Championship they came back and won the league

93/94 : 3 in a row - Swindon 2-2, Wimbledon 1-1, Man Utd 3-3

And the unbeaten starts :-

02/03 : 5 in a row - Bitters 1-1, Blackburn 1-1, Aston Villa 1-1, Arsenal 2-2, Middlesboro1-1
07/08 : 3 in a row - Birmingham 0-0, Tottenham 2-2, Arsenal 1-1
08/09 : 3 in a row - Fulham 0-0, West Ham 0-0, Hull 2-2

Rafa has had more success than Houllier, at least the Champions League win, Runners-up and the FA Cup win plus finishing with a Liverpool Premiership record 82 points outdoes anything Houllier won - although we did finish Runners-Up under Houllier with two points less. But Rafa has had shedloads of money, three signings costing over £18m and a hatful of £10m+ signings

£10m+ signings

Evans (0) - n/a
Houllier (3) - Heskey £11m, Diouf £10m, Cisse £14m (never got to use him!)
Rafa (6) - Alonso £10.5m, Kuyt £10m, Babel £11.5m, Mascherano £18.6m, Torres £21m, Keane £20.3m

I would think given that advantage in funds that Rafa could have managed more than 5th, 3rd, 3rd and 4th if he was good enough to make a title challenge. Maybe the problem with some on here is they will always harp back to the Champions League in Rafa's first season. It was great, but Rafa can't live off that forever in the same way the same people will say you can't judge Rafa on his first season in terms of league results. Besides that, wasn't he brought in to win the Premiership and not the odd cup no matter how big or small that cup is?

I've heard the old story about the mancs and Chelsea having spent more money and that as an excuse for us not challenging. But we've probably spent more money than Hull, Fulham, Stoke and West Ham put together, yet we didn't beat any of them AT HOME. We've taken three points off the mancs, three points off Chelsea and then dropped EIGHT points to sides of whom two are newly promoted and another was nearly relegated last season. We're just about punching above our weight thanks to some good comebacks and beating 'big four' rivals, but we can't stay at the top without beating the rest of the teams regularly. Three drawn home games in a row isn't good enough, it doesn't even include an Arsenal, Chelsea or Man Utd. Even when we have been top it hasn't been by much, come this evening we could be nervously looking over our shoulders at the mancs and fearing the worst when we go to the Emirates.

by **Toffeehater** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:21 am

RedEire wrote:We cannot keep returning to Istanbul as a defense to Rafas' brilliance. It was a great achievement and something that will remain part of LFC history forever. However, it is now that we want Rafa to show his brilliance. The Premiership is the one that all the players want and the one the fans want.
We have to play the best players for every game. That necessarily does not mean playing them all in the preferred positions. Dossena is a liability - worse than Djimi Traore. We have an excellent player with Agger who could easily adapt to left back or Arbeloa could play left back (as he has done in past) and play Agger with Hyypia in middle and put Carra out right.
Either that or give Insua a chance - he could not be any worse than Dossena.
However are we again seeing Rafa trying to demonstrate "I'm the boss" policy where players are being left on the bench because of they want to play more and have said so in the press.
I firmly believe that we will not win PL and the sole reason is that (a) we are not playing a best 11 every game and (b) Rafa is too concerned with tactics and adapting the style of football to nullify opposition instead of just letting his team play football and letting the opposition worry about us.
Rafa whinges to the press when a team comes to Anfield and defends deep, and now he is complaining that yesterdays game was too open in the first half and his obvious tactics of holding midfield/lone striker were once again not right.

Good post

by **kazza** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:28 am

Owzat wrote:Rafa's use of subs is poor and too predictable, not that starting with Mascherano and Alonso is a brilliant strategy at home against a side we need to be beating. His buys are rather hit and miss, the 'sly dig' at Kuyt aside there are mostly valid points made. I don't agree Rafa is a great tactician, he tends to try and out-tactic the opposition when often putting out our best side should be enough and he trips himself up. Yesterday Phil Brown had him stumped, although our defenders let the side down. If he is so great tactically then why do we draw too many games, nearly a quarter of all games under Rafa, and we've relied on comebacks a lot this season which also indicates either his starting tactics aren't good enough or the players aren't. So Gerrard, Alonso, Torres, Carragher, Reina, Mascherano, Riera etc aren't good enough? If that is so then how come I don't see many suggestions to sell them? Usually it's the soft targets like Kuyt, Babel, Lucas, Dossena etc who get scapegoated, apparently some think we'll raise enough by selling our unwanted "rubbish" to buy a quality player or two Like any top club would come in for them or smaller clubs could pay what we'd want or need to do so

Riera as a possible exception, has Rafa signed anyone in the summer who's made an impact? £40m spent and not much to show for it, it is now when wise spending could have made a difference instead of half of it sitting on the bench watching us draw 2-2 at home to Hull.

Here's a statistic a lot on here won't like : We've drawn three or more home games in a row in the Premiership on FOUR occaisions. Every time previously the mancs have won the Premiership and the previous two occaisions are seasons we've enjoyed unbeaten starts. I believe the last (only?) time the mancs played in the Club World Championship they came back and won the league

93/94 : 3 in a row - Swindon 2-2, Wimbledon 1-1, Man Utd 3-3

And the unbeaten starts :-

02/03 : 5 in a row - Bitters 1-1, Blackburn 1-1, Aston Villa 1-1, Arsenal 2-2, Middlesboro1-1
07/08 : 3 in a row - Birmingham 0-0, Tottenham 2-2, Arsenal 1-1
08/09 : 3 in a row - Fulham 0-0, West Ham 0-0, Hull 2-2

Rafa has had more success than Houllier, at least the Champions League win, Runners-up and the FA Cup win plus finishing with a Liverpool Premiership record 82 points outdoes anything Houllier won - although we did finish Runners-Up under Houllier with two points less. But Rafa has had shedloads of money, three signings costing over £18m and a hatful of £10m+ signings

£10m+ signings

Evans (0) - n/a
Houllier (3) - Heskey £11m, Diouf £10m, Cisse £14m (never got to use him!)
Rafa (6) - Alonso £10.5m, Kuyt £10m, Babel £11.5m, Mascherano £18.6m, Torres £21m, Keane £20.3m

I would think given that advantage in funds that Rafa could have managed more than 5th, 3rd, 3rd and 4th if he was good enough to make a title challenge. Maybe the problem with some on here is they will always harp back to the Champions League in Rafa's first season. It was great, but Rafa can't live off that forever in the same way the same people will say you can't judge Rafa on his first season in terms of league results. Besides that, wasn't he brought in to win the Premiership and not the odd cup no matter how big or small that cup is?

I've heard the old story about the mancs and Chelsea having spent more money and that as an excuse for us not challenging. But we've probably spent more money than Hull, Fulham, Stoke and West Ham put together, yet we didn't beat any of them AT HOME. We've taken three points off the mancs, three points off Chelsea and then dropped EIGHT points to sides of whom two are newly promoted and another was nearly relegated last season. We're just about punching above our weight thanks to some good comebacks and beating 'big four' rivals, but we can't stay at the top without beating the rest of the teams regularly. Three drawn home games in a row isn't good enough, it doesn't even include an Arsenal, Chelsea or Man Utd. Even when we have been top it hasn't been by much, come this evening we could be nervously looking over our shoulders at the mancs and fearing the worst when we go to the Emirates.

If we are going to be honest we could say the same about every manager including Fergie, Moureen and Wenger. They all do good things and they all make mistakes. Raffa is not perfect and neither is any other manager but he is the best choice available and he is our gaffer so he gets my support.

Any way this seems like a slag Raffa thread so I'm gone.

by **bigmick** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:46 am

If it does go wrong this season (and I don't mind being honest enough to admit it's looking more likely than it did three weeks ago), where have we gone wrong? Is it simply one of those things, is it Rafa's fault, the players fault or what? Is it indicative of the fact that he will never win us the Prem, or should we be simply thankful that he's got us into a position where we can actually challenge for once, if indeed "he" has?

Aside from silliness at the back recently with far too much chopping and changing for no reason (which has done us no favours at all IMHO) there has been much less styling so you couldn't put the blame for our recent demise there. Torres being injured has obviously been a bitter blow, as most people identified he and Gerrard staying fit as a prerequisite to us sustaining a challenge. My guess is though that if we did start to fall by the wayside (and indeed even if we don't), people would begin to focus on the Summer signings and what value they brought to proceedings. On the face of it the signings were necessary, but if you actually inspect the value they've added to the team it does make you wonder a bit.

So lets look at it, the best part of 40 million quid and what did we get?

Well, we got a striker who we don't play, and when we do we haul him off in each match after an hour or so. He hasn't at any stage even looked like getting going, and any potential confidence he might have picked up from his rare goalscoring appearances has been dashed on the rocks of the "next game rotation" policy. Whatever the thinking is and was about such a plan, Keane should have taken solace in the fact that it wasn't personal, it's a bit of a Rafa thing. Crouch could tell him all about being in a far richer vein of form than Keane ever was before being promtly rotated out of it, while even Rafa's so called favourite son Kuyt had to endure being benched after finding the net. After seemingly months of trying without any discernable success to score a goal or even look like doing so, he turned in ecstacy at St James park as the ball ricoched off his knee and broke his barren run. Relief was etched all over his little chops as he ran away, only to be followed by bemusement as he was promptly dropped for the next match. Quite what the thinking is behind such a theory I can't be sure, perhaps it works a treat in Spain where players celebrate with such passion when they score it could be that they need a rest in the next fixture so emotionally draining is the whole experience. Who knows?, certainly not this cocktail barman.

I think we can safely say though without any fear of contradiction, whatever methods have been employed within the club in order to make sure Keane settles as quickly as possible haven't been a roaring success it's fair to say. Whether it's Keane's fault, Rafa's fault or even my fault I'm fecked if I know, but so far his signing looks less than inspired when you look at his recent form (you can't say current because currently he doesn't play). Given the fact that he is the only striker we have apart from Torres (and lets face it, he is) and he can't get a game even when the Spaniard is out injured, you have to ask why the manager decided to shell out 20 million quid for him three months ago. Or I should say you might ask, because you don't have to if you don't want.

We also shelled out a lot of cash on a left back who I think most people agree isn't very good. We certainly needed a left back as whether you rate Aurelio or think he's a donkey, he simply isn't fit very often. So we needed a left back assuming the lad Insua isn't good enough I suppose, and based on his performance the other day I wouldn't necessarily be writing him off. We bought ourselves one, but quite simply he is awful. If this lad can turn it around and become a good player from where he is currently, I for one will be absolutely staggered.

We splashed out on a reserve goalie. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about goalies, but on first look he seems to me to be at best OK (if i'm honest I don't think he's good enough).

By a distance the best signing of the lot based on what we've seen so far was Riera. He has given the team balance, scored the odd goal, provided the odd assist. His arrival has meant we don't have to play Babel anymore down the left, Babel who we paid 11 million for a couple of years back. He was a striker back then, but we don't like playing him up front either. So when we are labouing for the second half against Hull and in desperate need of a goal, we have 31 million quids worth of strikers on the bench (not my valuation, the managers) and we don't bring either on to try and score one. we might have thought they were worth 31 million quid when we bought them, but we don't think they will significantly improve our chances of scoring a goal.

Like I say, you don't have to ask anything if you don't want.

by **dawson99** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:50 am

It almost looks, to me at least, like Rafa was given this 20 million kitty to buy Barry. When that didnt happen, he HAD to spend the money. Its like getting abudget at a company, if you dont spend it you get less the next time you ask. So he took a gamble on Keane, and it didn't quite work, or hasnt so far.

Its not the end of the world yet. Still 6 in front of manure (they have a game in hand) and 8 in fron t of Arsenal. Still, altho they play today, 2 in front of Chelsea, with 3 or 4 of our biggest players to come back (Torres, Skyrtel, Agger, I've missed someone) so let's not all cry yet. and Rafa is still the best manager we have had in a fuk of a long time.

by **Fo Dne** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:57 am

kazza wrote:At half time in Istanbul I am curious what you thought, odds are it was something along the lines of "we will lose 5-0"

That has to be the most pathetic arguement ever! Absoloutely grade "A" rubbish. It was nearly four years ago for a start, what the :censored:

has that got to do with us not beating Hull, Stoke, Fulham or West Ham at home this season?

Absoloutely nothing lad.

by **Fo Dne** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:01 am

RedEire wrote:I firmly believe that we will not win PL and the sole reason is that (a) we are not playing a best 11 every game and (b) Rafa is too concerned with tactics and adapting the style of football to nullify opposition instead of just letting his team play football and letting the opposition worry about us.

Said like that it sounds stupid and naive. If you don't attempt to negate the oppositions strengths in professional football you'll get your backside kicked and you'll never win anything.

You have to adapt every game to the opposition, what I don't agree with is changing the side and players to do this on a regular basis. You have to find patterns in the oppositions play and break them down, occassionally it will call for a team change, but Rafa does it every :censored:

game, sometimes when a simple adjustment to the shape of the team is needed, Ala Blackburn in the second half when he simply asked Alonso to push 10 yards up the pitch and occupy a different area. It made all the difference.

by **JBG** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:03 am

Fo Dne wrote:Right, well I'll start by saying that I think its a good time to change.

It pretty much went down hill from here..... :laugh:

We are top of the league and you want to replace the manager?

by **Fo Dne** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:08 am

JBG wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:Right, well I'll start by saying that I think its a good time to change.

It pretty much went down hill from here.....

We are top of the league and you want to replace the manager?

Well we aren't going to win the league so why not?

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