Liverpool FC Forum

by **LegBarnes** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:59 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:?? arsenal game and Besiktas he was up front for both and scored 3 and got us pen in arsenal game.

Oh, aye, some excellent evidence of his ability to lead the line there. He comes on as a LM against Besiktas when we're already up 4-0 and we've made it 5-0 before he gets moved up top. Talk about running through beaten horses. As for the Arsenal match, Babel was deployed on the left of midfield, as this excerpt from the Soccernet match report reminds us:

"Babel then came on for Crouch, who left the field to a standing ovation. Liverpool switched back to their preferred system, with Gerrard working behind Torres while two holding players protected the midfield." LINK

We've been all through this too, mate--read what I wrote. It's fecking Groundhog Day in here sometimes.

Well as i remember those and games and watch the arsenal one other day he didn't spend much time out on left wing..

One thing getting your info from sites another thing watching it.

He played on the wing in the arsenal game , what part of the pitch did he recieve the ball on and make the run into the penalty area for the penalty?

yeah but he was floating he was up center as well hence the goal he scored.

But any ways 4 games like i said is no basis to say if a player is bad there or not.

Babel is not been consistent in wide area yet and has never had a massive run of games in first team to show what he has and that is a fact.

Even he has come out and said I am striker.

So i think it don't matter what we say if he says he is striker I take his word for it.

http://www.goal.com/en-us....ng-role

by **LegBarnes** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:00 am

Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:?? arsenal game and Besiktas he was up front for both and scored 3 and got us pen in arsenal game.

Oh, aye, some excellent evidence of his ability to lead the line there. He comes on as a LM against Besiktas when we're already up 4-0 and we've made it 5-0 before he gets moved up top. Talk about running through beaten horses. As for the Arsenal match, Babel was deployed on the left of midfield, as this excerpt from the Soccernet match report reminds us:

"Babel then came on for Crouch, who left the field to a standing ovation. Liverpool switched back to their preferred system, with Gerrard working behind Torres while two holding players protected the midfield." LINK

We've been all through this too, mate--read what I wrote. It's fecking Groundhog Day in here sometimes.

Well as i remember those and games and watch the arsenal one other day he didn't spend much time out on left wing..

One thing getting your info from sites another thing watching it.

But lets say even if your are right 4 games is a basis to judge if a player is ok ? why did Keane get 14 so far ?

That's because he never spends much time out on the wings because, as you like to bring up at every...single...opportunity, he's not a winger. He's forever cutting infield and lingering around the box. And yet, you and the other Babel babes would have us believe that he's been so completely burdened with his duties as a wide player that we can't see the real Babel and if only we'd just play him up top...

Well, given that he spends most of his time in and around the box and still fails to look the business you'll forgive me if I have very little faith that starting him up top will produce this miraculous metamorphosis that you lot keep insisting will happen.

Winger or striker, he'll still make poor decisions, bottle out of 50/50 situations and not look a.rsed 3/4 of the time. So forget the position he plays in and focus on the real facts behind the numbers: 12 goals over a season and half, four from starts but 8 from off the bench. That means he's a supersub--a pace merchant to throw on late in games against tired but still attacking opposition. Whenever we use him in those situations, he offers the side a fair bit. Unfortunately, when we start him, he offers much less and I guarantee that'll be the case whether he plays out wide or up top.

And you base that bob on what knowledge ? your years of years of watching football on telly ? is it ?

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:07 am

LegBarnes wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:?? arsenal game and Besiktas he was up front for both and scored 3 and got us pen in arsenal game.

Oh, aye, some excellent evidence of his ability to lead the line there. He comes on as a LM against Besiktas when we're already up 4-0 and we've made it 5-0 before he gets moved up top. Talk about running through beaten horses. As for the Arsenal match, Babel was deployed on the left of midfield, as this excerpt from the Soccernet match report reminds us:

"Babel then came on for Crouch, who left the field to a standing ovation. Liverpool switched back to their preferred system, with Gerrard working behind Torres while two holding players protected the midfield." LINK

We've been all through this too, mate--read what I wrote. It's fecking Groundhog Day in here sometimes.

Well as i remember those and games and watch the arsenal one other day he didn't spend much time out on left wing..

One thing getting your info from sites another thing watching it.

He played on the wing in the arsenal game , what part of the pitch did he recieve the ball on and make the run into the penalty area for the penalty?

yeah but he was floating he was up center as well hence the goal he scored.

But any ways 4 games like i said is no basis to say if a player is bad there or not.

Babel is not been consistent in wide area yet and has never had a massive run of games in first team to show what he has and that is a fact.

Even he has come out and said I am striker.

So i think it don't matter what we say if he says he is striker I take his word for it.

http://www.goal.com/en-us....ng-role

Fine, you take his word for it if it makes you feel better. I'd rather focus on what's best for the team than what's best for poor old Ryan.

FWIW, he'd be the first name on my subs list every week and I'd give him plenty of minutes off the bench to make an impact if I were the gaffer. I also wouldn't hesitate to give him the odd start, out wide or even up top, if our regular starters were injured/suspended/in need of a rest. I think he's worthy of these kinds of cameos. Moreover, if--like any player--he hit a real purple patch during those cameos I'd give him a run of games to reward his performances and to see what he could bring to the team. If, however, he failed to bring much more to the table than we've already seen I'd have no qualms about keeping him on the bench as a supersub, no matter how much talking to the press he did. If his ego couldn't take that, he could find another club. That's how I'd play it if I were gaffer...I wonder how Rafa would handle it?

LFC Uber Elite Super Member · by **LFC Uber Elite Super Member** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:09 am

Petar wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
heimdall wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:Is your name Petar

Because he reckons hes an out an out striker . Not in my book he aint.

Nanny why do you claim he is not an out and out striker? He has not been given the chance to play as striker enough apart form last 10 minutes as a loan striker very few times, I think he would function very well in a 4-4-2 with Torres.
All I am saying is give the lad a chance, a decent run in that position. If after 7-8 games he is and shows no sign of improving or is worse than Keane then I will hold my hands up and admit he's not good enough but playing a striker out on the left wing all the time makes no damned sense.

He is not a good passer of the ball because he's a striker.
He is not good at tracking back and getting stuck into tackles.... because he's a striker!
What he is good at is beating his man and taking his chances. I agree he needs to get a bit more clever with his passing but that will come with playing time in the right position I am sure of it.

Tell me: Why does Babel deserve a run of games, if Ngog does not?

Because he played some fantastic games for us. N gog did not.

Ohhh,try with some logic,it is good,FFS

To be fair to Babel he does need to play more regulary if he is to improve and develop his skills, Benitez using him mostly as a impact player of the bench isn't ideal for a 21 yo who obviously needs game time to sharpen his skills. Not sure about the 'natural striker' argument stats I found have him making around 22 appearances for Holland in 08 where I believe he plays in a more advanced role scoring twice. The interesting element with Babel I think is more about Benitez and his ability at developing young talent, Babel isn't the only youngster to come to the club with big expectations and not really develop over the last few years. Would he be a better player now had he signed with Arsenal?

by **LegBarnes** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:14 am

there is no comparison to a winger and striker the skills that are needed are 2 totaly different posistions.

More likely to compare a defender and a striker as both need good heading composure and strenght.

But as I have played a striker in my playing days and been asked to fill a side area role I do understand Babels fustration.

Strikers are there to do one thing and one thing only and that is to put the ball in net any thing else is a bonus.

We score goals thats is it.

I agree there is a new breed of player on the sceen nowa days the rooney and ronaldo types that can play both areas.

But Ronaldo if you was to put him up front I feel wouldn't have the stenght to deal with it.

Remember if you are a striker the game changes you have to learn to deal with man marking rather then zonal as wingers deal with.

Babel for me has show me is adept to having a cool head and composure which for me is one the prime skills(or mental skills) to play a striker.

Others are pace , Strenght , Good in Air and finishing.

Picking a pass , desision making are not what I see as important for someone that is paid to put ball in back of net.

Yes they are something I see all player should grasp at some point but really these skills you either have young or you gain them as you gain match experience.

by **Sabre** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:15 am

Bad Bob, I agree the bits about poor decissions and the description of the player as a whole, but your position on babel is harsher than my position on him. I think it's because you also say that he doesn't look ársed where as I couldn't be certain to say that.

IMHO it's difficult (i.e. in the past I've been wrong about that) to read body languages or attitudes in a player unless those are blatant, so I'm curious, where do you see signs of not being ársed a lot of times?

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:16 am

LegBarnes wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:?? arsenal game and Besiktas he was up front for both and scored 3 and got us pen in arsenal game.

Oh, aye, some excellent evidence of his ability to lead the line there. He comes on as a LM against Besiktas when we're already up 4-0 and we've made it 5-0 before he gets moved up top. Talk about running through beaten horses. As for the Arsenal match, Babel was deployed on the left of midfield, as this excerpt from the Soccernet match report reminds us:

"Babel then came on for Crouch, who left the field to a standing ovation. Liverpool switched back to their preferred system, with Gerrard working behind Torres while two holding players protected the midfield." LINK

We've been all through this too, mate--read what I wrote. It's fecking Groundhog Day in here sometimes.

Well as i remember those and games and watch the arsenal one other day he didn't spend much time out on left wing..

One thing getting your info from sites another thing watching it.

But lets say even if your are right 4 games is a basis to judge if a player is ok ? why did Keane get 14 so far ?

That's because he never spends much time out on the wings because, as you like to bring up at every...single...opportunity, he's not a winger. He's forever cutting infield and lingering around the box. And yet, you and the other Babel babes would have us believe that he's been so completely burdened with his duties as a wide player that we can't see the real Babel and if only we'd just play him up top...

Well, given that he spends most of his time in and around the box and still fails to look the business you'll forgive me if I have very little faith that starting him up top will produce this miraculous metamorphosis that you lot keep insisting will happen.

Winger or striker, he'll still make poor decisions, bottle out of 50/50 situations and not look a.rsed 3/4 of the time. So forget the position he plays in and focus on the real facts behind the numbers: 12 goals over a season and half, four from starts but 8 from off the bench. That means he's a supersub--a pace merchant to throw on late in games against tired but still attacking opposition. Whenever we use him in those situations, he offers the side a fair bit. Unfortunately, when we start him, he offers much less and I guarantee that'll be the case whether he plays out wide or up top.

And you base that bob on what knowledge ? your years of years of watching football on telly ? is it ?

Well at least you didn't call me a tw.at...I suppose that's a step forward from your usual tactics when you get frustrated. Look, mate, it's a football forum where we discuss football. I'm sorry it bugs you that some of us don't rate Babel as highly as you do but there's no need to throw your toys out of the pram. What? Am I just supposed to nod along when you post up nonsense stats just because you've supposedly played the game to some decent standard? Bollox to that. You talk rubbish, you get told. That's the beauty of this place.

by **LegBarnes** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:21 am

Well I have played the game bob think that might explain how I know you talking out your ar.se(on this matter).

All the stats in world don't teach you how football is played when you on the pitch.

You are not very forgiving this is how I know you ain't with it so to speak only ex pro's know that young footballing talent needs time.

You come across as your avg He ain't scored in 5 matches sell him type of fan.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:27 am

Sabre wrote:Bad Bob, I agree the bits about poor decissions and the description of the player as a whole, but your position on babel is harsher than my position on him. I think it's because you also say that he doesn't look ársed where as I couldn't be certain to say that.

IMHO it's difficult (i.e. in the past I've been wrong about that) to read body languages or attitudes in a player unless those are blatant, so I'm curious, where do you see signs of not being ársed a lot of times?

I know what you're saying, mate--not every player has that all-action style that the likes of Masch or Kuyt or Keane show. I don't expect that. With Babel there's just something else, though--like he's half-asleep half the time. Maybe saying he can't be a.rsed is the wrong way of putting it. It might have much more to do with not having the bottle to get stuck in, track back or take on the fullback. That latter bit is what frustrates me most about him. I can forgive him many of his defensive weaknesses because, striker or winger, he's more focused on attack. But, when a big, strong, pacey lad won't take the fullback on or won't play in a much better positioned teammate I start to wonder. Because we expect attackers to be taking men on and looking to dovetail with teammates effectively. He does too little of that for my liking and whether that's down to lack of awareness, lack of bottle, lack of interest or some combination of all three, it's still frustrating.

by **LegBarnes** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:30 am

Bad Bob wrote:
Sabre wrote:Bad Bob, I agree the bits about poor decissions and the description of the player as a whole, but your position on babel is harsher than my position on him. I think it's because you also say that he doesn't look ársed where as I couldn't be certain to say that.

IMHO it's difficult (i.e. in the past I've been wrong about that) to read body languages or attitudes in a player unless those are blatant, so I'm curious, where do you see signs of not being ársed a lot of times?

I know what you're saying, mate--not every player has that all-action style that the likes of Masch or Kuyt or Keane show. I don't expect that. With Babel there's just something else, though--like he's half-asleep half the time. Maybe saying he can't be a.rsed is the wrong way of putting it. It might have much more to do with not having the bottle to get stuck in, track back or take on the fullback. That latter bit is what frustrates me most about him. I can forgive him many of his defensive weaknesses because, striker or winger, he's more focused on attack. But, when a big, strong, pacey lad won't take the fullback on or won't play in a much better positioned teammate I start to wonder. Because we expect attackers to be taking men on and looking to dovetail with teammates effectively. He does too little of that for my liking and whether that's down to lack of awareness, lack of bottle, lack of interest or some combination of all three, it's still frustrating.

Lack of confidence ? maybe ?

You seem to focus on the things that make him out to be an a**hole but not on things that could be the real problem is this just maybe you looking for a scape goat every time he plays ?

EDIT: I dunno if you remember collymore much but he reminds me of babel a little in his mind.

He used to be so poor some days others he looked worlds best player.

Now I hope babel doesn't turn out to be a collymore because he was one of the biggest wastes of tallents we have seen in football for a long time.

But it can show you the power of the mind and if someone isn't happy can really have an effect on there game don't ya think ?

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:34 am

LegBarnes wrote:Well I have played the game bob think that might explain how I know you talking out your ar.se(on this matter).

All the stats in world don't teach you how football is played when you on the pitch.

You are not very forgiving this is how I know you ain't with it so to speak only ex pro's know that young footballing talent needs time.

You come across as your avg He ain't scored in 5 matches sell him type of fan.

Well I'll be sure to defer to your superior footballing wisdom from here on out. If an ex-pro thinks Babel's the dog's bollox, that'll be good enough for me. :kungfu:

by **Sabre** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:39 am

Somehow, it's as if we're looking to a patient no? And we see the same symptoms, I agree those decissions are frustrating, he doesn't take a man the times he should, and he's unable to stop the game, he's a man of one or two speeds.

But I'm unsure about the diagnostic, and I'm unsure about being a waste of time to spend time on him (1). I do think young players not looking good at the early stages of his career can become good players. It's those cases like Llorente of Villarreal. Wasn't good enough for Real Sociedad, he took decissions wrong, he was handtied by pressure and anxiety. Then, away from home, he got off the chest that anxiety and these days he's at a important club.

Another reason (more selfish) to keep patient with him is that if we sell him now it will be a very bad business...

I agree the symptoms, but I'm not certain about getting rid of him, and I haven't lost my hopes on him. THere's a lot of work to do though. And I certainly disagree the Heimdallesque views, who advocate for making experiments of the calibre of giving 7 games to Babel when a league is at stake (then he'll call Rafa mad!). Babel has to claim his place and convince us more times than he's doing this season if he wants to get games.

(1) Disclaimer

: Not that you have said any of this, it's just that I start the post answering you, then wander, and I end up thinking aloud

by **LegBarnes** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:41 am

Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:Well I have played the game bob think that might explain how I know you talking out your ar.se(on this matter).

All the stats in world don't teach you how football is played when you on the pitch.

You are not very forgiving this is how I know you ain't with it so to speak only ex pro's know that young footballing talent needs time.

You come across as your avg He ain't scored in 5 matches sell him type of fan.

Well I'll be sure to defer to your superior footballing wisdom from here on out. If an ex-pro thinks Babel's the dog's bollox, that'll be good enough for me.

I don't think he is the dog's bollox that is point I think he has been poor alot.

I think you missing my point on this maybe thats my fault.

Unlike you I am not the best at showing what I meen in words.

I feel there is something not right with him atm Is that down to confidence ? or maybe that he feels he should have more games ? Or maybe just bcos he is playing wide left and right when he wants to play up front ?

Your guess is as good as mine with out having a word with him.

But I seen alot of promise in him I meen alot he has all the skills to be world class.

He just seems to be lacking the mental strenght to exspress that on the pitch.

I hope it is just down to some basic reason and he recovers but I can see he is not happy most of time.

But I get really mad when I see a young expressive tallent like babel really going for it other night then right after people saying what a greedy little (other persons words K**t) he is.

At end of day this is what I have been looking for in him to stand up and be counted and he showed that on tuesday he brought us back into game and should be shown respect for that.

I hope you understand now.

by **SupitsJonF** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:12 am

NANNY RED wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:If you don't like people why post?

He loves me

But everyone does! :love:

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:35 am

I have no really strong views on Babel either way, although I don't think he is good enough for a regular first team place at the moment , but he may develop given a few chances. He reminds me more of Cisse than Colleymore. Often standing flatfooted rather than on his toes, and not the "cleverest" of footballers most of the time.

Then again I was never as harsh on Cisse as some on here. I thought he had a rough time at Liverpool, both with injuries and the role he was asked to play.

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