Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bam** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:45 am

December 7 th 2008 Liverpool are top of the league, if anyone would of offered me that back in early August I would of returned them the offer of, one of me Kidneys.
I dont know what I'd offer them for the same position come May perhaps the Misses. But there is a long way to go yet but I'd like peoples thoughts on our season so far.

For me our best performances have come away from Chelsea this season with three points. The outstanding record they had at home has gone, now they look a little vulnrable at home and I cant help but think we are the catalysts of their indifferent form at home. Our other great performance came at home to the Mancs, and we had another good performance at Goodison. While for the rest of the games we've looked as though we've been stuck in second gear, while our performances overall havent been great we've grinded on, with a little luck here and their. But we have missed out twice now on what was a gifthorse to put some daylight between ourselves and our challengers. On current form I think our gearbox needs to be overhauled so we can go through the gears better.

Without Torres we have been found out a little, and looked pretty toothless. With him fit he almost single handley commands Rafa to play the 4-2-3-1 formation. Thats not taking away anything from Rafa, merely talking up how good this young Spainard is. He plays this role brilliantly and I honestly dont think there are many other strikers in the league who can produce the goods in this role, Drogba being a fair shout. But certainly not Keane and certainly not Kuyt and for me this is where are weakness has been shown very recently without Torres in the side. The goals up until yesterday had dried up a little, although in saying that I still dont see a genuine goal threat apart from Stevie G maybe, for the forseeable future.
This problem IMO (Torres' injury) has led us into a slight bliip somewhat. Without him our 4-2-3-1 formation hasnt been as effective due to the lack of form and ability from both Kuyt and Keane respectively. Yesterday against Blackburn I didnt really see this formation working to well having the Dutchman upfront, although there was a positive taken from this. That was to see Alonso find himself in the Oppo's box on more than one occasion testing the keeper. By and large though it didnt look good with Kuyt leading the line, and TBPH it wouldnt of faired any better with Keane leading the line. Rafa reverted back to this formation after playing Keane and Kuyt upfront against West Ham, another method he tried, yet still a method that died on its a.rse.

This is the catch 22 at the moment, what system do you play, what striker(s) do you play and if you do play strikers what midfielder do you drop and who plays on the right if Kuyts upfront ?
Anyway thats been our main problem so far and although the form of Riera and Gerrard IMO has dipped somewhat that also doesnt help matters.

Anyway the general feeling amongst Liverpool fans still seems to be mixed. FWIW I'm loving the fact we're sitting ontop of the table, but I can see there is room for improvement. But I can not honestly see why Rafa has been given so much stick from some fans on here and in general. Yes, I gave him loads of stick myself for numerous things, I more or lessed moaned my way through last season because I firmly believed and still do of course that had the bloke cut down on some of his seemingly 'willy nilly' rotating. We'd stand a hell of a lot more of a chance of sustaining some sort of title challenge. He has cut that out considerabley and we're sitting top of the tree, I'm not saying its all down to picking a stable and settled side but its certainly played its part IMO.

So after the "seeing of the light" I dont really have any other quarels with the manager (well okay some of his signings, possibly his man-management and a few other things

) But I can't be greedy and expect it all to change over night, so I'm at least happy to see the toneing down of rotation. He's changed the one thing I was desperate to see him do (rotating), of course I cannot always fathom some of the decisions he makes, in substitutions and the odd selection or two. But on the whole I'm happy with him and the teams position at the moment, how could you not be ? But Rafa still gets his fair share of critisim at times now when I feel its not neccerserily warranted. Especially over the Keane saga where many people have critisised the fact Keane had been taken off almost every 60 minutes into a match. Hmm Fair enough I suppose, but I dont agree with them, Robbie Keane has had his fair share of minutes on the pitch this season and still hasnt hit any kind of form atall, apart from the two goals against West Brom. Thats simply not good enough ! I agree with Rafa 100% on subbing him at certain times aswell as benching him yesterday.

But its is definately a mixed feeling from my point of view so far into this season. The fact that we're top has counter-balanced our problems and potential problems. Again, I'm glad we're top ... Delighted infact but I do have reservations about our confidence, form and goal threat. Its weird, we know our team can play much better yet we're still up there in the mix and for that I'm grateful.

by **Owzat** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:33 am

The way we're playing is just worryingly poor, certainly not to the level of league leaders but more a team in fifth or sixth pushing to get into the top four as has often been the case in the past. We're not scoring enough goals, 1/4 of our games have resulted in 0-0 draws. There's little point focusing on positives, it's the weaknesses that can be corrected which could make us title contenders.

It's way too early to start etching an 'L' on the Premiership trophy, taking 69+ minutes to score past a side bottom but one of the table should make that very apparent. The two teams who've won the last four Premiership titles between them sit dangerously close to us, poised and ready. I'll be a lot more convinced this season could be our season if we're still there or thereabouts in February or March. By then we will have played Arsenal away and Chelsea at home, we'll still have Arsenal at home (18/4) and Man Utd away (14/3) to play and unless fans believe we'll be six or more points clear by then, those games could still kill a title challenge.

I'm definitely not counting any chickens, to do so would be stupid at this early stage even if we were top AND playing a lot better than we are (as opposed to top by one point playing mediocrely). I doubt the mancs or Chelsea will drop off the pace at any stage during this marathon sprint, expect no respite and this pace will probably need to be maintained ie no margin for error

by **bigmick** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:59 am

I agree we've been annoyingly inconcsistent, not just from game to game but from minute to minute. As I touched on in the "R" thread, while I've been pleased that the reduction in rotation has coincided with much more consistent results, I am very disappointed that it hasn't resulted in the much vaunted improvement in "cohesion" and "rhythm". Whether that's down to the anxiety the players are feeling from being right up there or what i'm not sure, but there is no question our actual form in terms of team play has been bitterly disappointing at times. Bam was right in the topic starter, Chelsea Away was our best performance by a distance, but annoyingly it was an absolute stand out.

That said, we are top of the league and the only reason I give a sh!t about the performances is that I am certain that if we don't play better we will come unstuck before long. As each game ticks by though, as long as we win I must confess I don't care about the artistic merit. If Keane can begin to play anywhere near to his potential, it would an absolutely huge difference to the team IMHO. That could well be the key.

by **DanAn** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:49 pm

I think we have had quite a few standouts. The 2nd half against Man City, Man Utd and Everton along with Chelsea were all good performances. It's the games we should be winning easily that have been the disappointments.

by **Number 9** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:13 pm

Watching the game yesterday the first half especially was frustrating as hell.Nothing was going right for us,passing was poor,players were not moving around much,no one really done anything to damage the opposition.Thats been the story of our season,mostly playing WAY below potential...but getting the results to top the League after 16 games,its been a surreal season.

After the second half was over and taking into account our postion in the League and the scoreline,i tried to take my LFC hat off for a while and think from our competetors position on us!
Would you be genuinely worried about LFC this season if you were Fergie or Scolari I asked myself?
I'd say yes,for the first time in years I think we are to be taken seriously.How can you not be wary of a team that is top of the League near Xmas mostly without the best player in the world,who are playing no where near what they are capable of?The football aint been pretty and we have had to fight and win ugly at times(more than the nerves would like) but that is not a bad thing.
We usually play better in the second half of the season too and TBH I struggle to see us playing so ugly for much longer...the football can really only get better.

Exciting times from where Im sitting,if we can stay where we are until Nando gets back in the team we have every chance of going all the way!

by **Madmax** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:00 pm

Its been a very odd season so far. We have not kicked in the top gear at the moment it must be said. Things could have been worse if it wasnt for our comebacks. For me so far the standout performances have to be against manchester utd and chelsea. So glad we beat those clowns. Was really chuffed that we finally broke the mannue woodoo and anfield. Even though we are not performing well i have to admit and any fan will agree it feels brill being top of the table. Any true fan would have taken that if said in august. With the striker problem at the moment the few games in december will be nervy. Lets just hope when we have a fitter tores we will kick start the 2nd half of the season. As stated before if we are stil top in end feb we have a great chance. Mancs will eventually start winning every game and so will chelsea. The pressure will be on us! The thing that worries me is will we be able to handle it though?

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:25 pm

Bam wrote:December 7 th 2008 Liverpool are top of the league, if anyone would of offered me that back in early August I would of returned them the offer of, one of me Kidneys.
I dont know what I'd offer them for the same position come May perhaps the Misses. But there is a long way to go yet but I'd like peoples thoughts on our season so far.

For me our best performances have come away from Chelsea this season with three points. The outstanding record they had at home has gone, now they look a little vulnrable at home and I cant help but think we are the catalysts of their indifferent form at home. Our other great performance came at home to the Mancs, and we had another good performance at Goodison. While for the rest of the games we've looked as though we've been stuck in second gear, while our performances overall havent been great we've grinded on, with a little luck here and their. But we have missed out twice now on what was a gifthorse to put some daylight between ourselves and our challengers. On current form I think our gearbox needs to be overhauled so we can go through the gears better.

Without Torres we have been found out a little, and looked pretty toothless. With him fit he almost single handley commands Rafa to play the 4-2-3-1 formation. Thats not taking away anything from Rafa, merely talking up how good this young Spainard is. He plays this role brilliantly and I honestly dont think there are many other strikers in the league who can produce the goods in this role, Drogba being a fair shout. But certainly not Keane and certainly not Kuyt and for me this is where are weakness has been shown very recently without Torres in the side. The goals up until yesterday had dried up a little, although in saying that I still dont see a genuine goal threat apart from Stevie G maybe, for the forseeable future.
This problem IMO (Torres' injury) has led us into a slight bliip somewhat. Without him our 4-2-3-1 formation hasnt been as effective due to the lack of form and ability from both Kuyt and Keane respectively. Yesterday against Blackburn I didnt really see this formation working to well having the Dutchman upfront, although there was a positive taken from this. That was to see Alonso find himself in the Oppo's box on more than one occasion testing the keeper. By and large though it didnt look good with Kuyt leading the line, and TBPH it wouldnt of faired any better with Keane leading the line. Rafa reverted back to this formation after playing Keane and Kuyt upfront against West Ham, another method he tried, yet still a method that died on its a.rse.

This is the catch 22 at the moment, what system do you play, what striker(s) do you play and if you do play strikers what midfielder do you drop and who plays on the right if Kuyts upfront ?
Anyway thats been our main problem so far and although the form of Riera and Gerrard IMO has dipped somewhat that also doesnt help matters.

Anyway the general feeling amongst Liverpool fans still seems to be mixed. FWIW I'm loving the fact we're sitting ontop of the table, but I can see there is room for improvement. But I can not honestly see why Rafa has been given so much stick from some fans on here and in general. Yes, I gave him loads of stick myself for numerous things, I more or lessed moaned my way through last season because I firmly believed and still do of course that had the bloke cut down on some of his seemingly 'willy nilly' rotating. We'd stand a hell of a lot more of a chance of sustaining some sort of title challenge. He has cut that out considerabley and we're sitting top of the tree, I'm not saying its all down to picking a stable and settled side but its certainly played its part IMO.

So after the "seeing of the light" I dont really have any other quarels with the manager (well okay some of his signings, possibly his man-management and a few other things ) But I can't be greedy and expect it all to change over night, so I'm at least happy to see the toneing down of rotation. He's changed the one thing I was desperate to see him do (rotating), of course I cannot always fathom some of the decisions he makes, in substitutions and the odd selection or two. But on the whole I'm happy with him and the teams position at the moment, how could you not be ? But Rafa still gets his fair share of critisim at times now when I feel its not neccerserily warranted. Especially over the Keane saga where many people have critisised the fact Keane had been taken off almost every 60 minutes into a match. Hmm Fair enough I suppose, but I dont agree with them, Robbie Keane has had his fair share of minutes on the pitch this season and still hasnt hit any kind of form atall, apart from the two goals against West Brom. Thats simply not good enough ! I agree with Rafa 100% on subbing him at certain times aswell as benching him yesterday.

But its is definately a mixed feeling from my point of view so far into this season. The fact that we're top has counter-balanced our problems and potential problems. Again, I'm glad we're top ... Delighted infact but I do have reservations about our confidence, form and goal threat. Its weird, we know our team can play much better yet we're still up there in the mix and for that I'm grateful.

It's a good balanced post, Bam. I agree that we've not looked at the races for most of the season yet are top of the pile in December, which is strange. Like Barry (in another thread) I hope we can maintain this league position while playing ourselves into some form. We'll truly take some beating if we're still at or very near the top and start playing the way we are capable of.

The biggest concern at the moment is how to produce, not just goals, but actual goal chances. With Torres out the 4-5-1/4-2-3-1 looks a little flimsy because neither Keane nor Kuyt (nor Babel nor Ngog) are up to as a lone striker. With that said, though, putting Gerrard in support just behind at least puts our most potent attacking weapon up where he can do the most damage, so long as he stays up in that advanced role (Saint's right that he was dropping way too deep in the 1st half yesterday). The other option is to go 4-4-2 but that means dropping Masch for one of our misfiring strikers and probably introducing some rotation at RM, unless one of Benayoun, Babel, El Zhar or Pennant raise their game enough to make the position their own with Kuyt moving up top.

Whichever way we go, I think it'll have to be a bit of a chewing gum and bailing wire patch-up job through the festive season. We need to come up with ways to keep churning out results and look to still be at or very near the top of the pile come January when, hopefully, we get Torres back and reinforce the attack in the transfer window.

by **Igor Zidane** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:17 pm

I'm pretty much enjoying the ride so far . I'm just hoping that this is our blip and we can kick on from here and start playing convincing football and win games convincingly, which will do the teams confidence the world of good . If we can have a good December and christmas period ,well we've defo got a chance.

by **Sabre** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:37 am

Igor Zidane wrote:I'm pretty much enjoying the ride so far . I'm just hoping that this is our blip and we can kick on from here and start playing convincing football and win games convincingly, which will do the teams confidence the world of good . If we can have a good December and christmas period ,well we've defo got a chance.

Same here.

These last years, I could read around here "9 points off Manchester -- not good enough". Or "10 points off Chelsea -- not good enough". I could read post 3 comments like that per page.

For some reason, this year, it seems the points are not something that important to comment. Newkits has become all of a sudden in a "O jogo bonito" (O beautiful game

) forum.

Myself I'm of the "Give me points, and call me numpty" school.

I think that if we're able to get a difference of points like 4 points, it will fuel our confidence and we'll be able to see some teams spanked.

As we speak, I'm happy to be rivalling with the excellent point ratio that Chelsea is doing, and beutiful football or samba is not a priority in my agenda right now.

by **bigmick** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:09 am

Yep, it's not how, it's how many. I couldn't give a feck if we bore the pants off everybody while we're doing it, provided we keep winning I'm happy. This weekend was a great example. We were unconvincing against Blackburn but still got the points, and we came so so close to a two point gain on Man Utd. Feck me anyone who talks about any lucky goals we've scored should take a look at Vidics equaliser. From the deflected shot, to the the unlikely bend the sidespin put on the ball, to the perfect contact on the post to roll it into the path of the onrushing centre half, it was a goal which was worryingly shrowded in a "it was meant to happen" cloak of inevitability. Like Dudeks dying seconds save from Shevchenko in the Champions League final, such incidents decide sporting events. I only hope we aren't left looking back at the end of the season on Vidics goal as being a pivotal moment.

There's only one way to ensure that doesn't happen, and that's keep winning. I couldn't myself give a flying feck exactly how we do it, as long as we do. I worry only about the performances because against better teams we'll need to play better, but we can cross that one when we come to it.

by **stmichael** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:20 am

To be honest, this season has been the most average Premier League I can remember. Nobody is outstanding. Everybody outside the top six is looking down rather than up. We're top of the League having played well for about four halves of 16 games (the best we played was the first 70 minutes at Spurs which we somehow ended up losing). Chelsea have problems behind the scenes. Arsenal have gone backwards and the Mancs have been distinctly average. It sums it all up when Hull are still sixth, despite the fact that before the weekend they hadn't won in six games.

by **Scottbot** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:28 am

Bam wrote:December 7 th 2008 Liverpool are top of the league, if anyone would of offered me that back in early August I would of returned them the offer of, one of me Kidneys.
I dont know what I'd offer them for the same position come May perhaps the Misses. But there is a long way to go yet but I'd like peoples thoughts on our season so far.

For me our best performances have come away from Chelsea this season with three points. The outstanding record they had at home has gone, now they look a little vulnrable at home and I cant help but think we are the catalysts of their indifferent form at home. Our other great performance came at home to the Mancs, and we had another good performance at Goodison. While for the rest of the games we've looked as though we've been stuck in second gear, while our performances overall havent been great we've grinded on, with a little luck here and their. But we have missed out twice now on what was a gifthorse to put some daylight between ourselves and our challengers. On current form I think our gearbox needs to be overhauled so we can go through the gears better.

Without Torres we have been found out a little, and looked pretty toothless. With him fit he almost single handley commands Rafa to play the 4-2-3-1 formation. Thats not taking away anything from Rafa, merely talking up how good this young Spainard is. He plays this role brilliantly and I honestly dont think there are many other strikers in the league who can produce the goods in this role, Drogba being a fair shout. But certainly not Keane and certainly not Kuyt and for me this is where are weakness has been shown very recently without Torres in the side. The goals up until yesterday had dried up a little, although in saying that I still dont see a genuine goal threat apart from Stevie G maybe, for the forseeable future.
This problem IMO (Torres' injury) has led us into a slight bliip somewhat. Without him our 4-2-3-1 formation hasnt been as effective due to the lack of form and ability from both Kuyt and Keane respectively. Yesterday against Blackburn I didnt really see this formation working to well having the Dutchman upfront, although there was a positive taken from this. That was to see Alonso find himself in the Oppo's box on more than one occasion testing the keeper. By and large though it didnt look good with Kuyt leading the line, and TBPH it wouldnt of faired any better with Keane leading the line. Rafa reverted back to this formation after playing Keane and Kuyt upfront against West Ham, another method he tried, yet still a method that died on its a.rse.

This is the catch 22 at the moment, what system do you play, what striker(s) do you play and if you do play strikers what midfielder do you drop and who plays on the right if Kuyts upfront ?
Anyway thats been our main problem so far and although the form of Riera and Gerrard IMO has dipped somewhat that also doesnt help matters.

Anyway the general feeling amongst Liverpool fans still seems to be mixed. FWIW I'm loving the fact we're sitting ontop of the table, but I can see there is room for improvement. But I can not honestly see why Rafa has been given so much stick from some fans on here and in general. Yes, I gave him loads of stick myself for numerous things, I more or lessed moaned my way through last season because I firmly believed and still do of course that had the bloke cut down on some of his seemingly 'willy nilly' rotating. We'd stand a hell of a lot more of a chance of sustaining some sort of title challenge. He has cut that out considerabley and we're sitting top of the tree, I'm not saying its all down to picking a stable and settled side but its certainly played its part IMO.

So after the "seeing of the light" I dont really have any other quarels with the manager (well okay some of his signings, possibly his man-management and a few other things ) But I can't be greedy and expect it all to change over night, so I'm at least happy to see the toneing down of rotation. He's changed the one thing I was desperate to see him do (rotating), of course I cannot always fathom some of the decisions he makes, in substitutions and the odd selection or two. But on the whole I'm happy with him and the teams position at the moment, how could you not be ? But Rafa still gets his fair share of critisim at times now when I feel its not neccerserily warranted. Especially over the Keane saga where many people have critisised the fact Keane had been taken off almost every 60 minutes into a match. Hmm Fair enough I suppose, but I dont agree with them, Robbie Keane has had his fair share of minutes on the pitch this season and still hasnt hit any kind of form atall, apart from the two goals against West Brom. Thats simply not good enough ! I agree with Rafa 100% on subbing him at certain times aswell as benching him yesterday.

But its is definately a mixed feeling from my point of view so far into this season. The fact that we're top has counter-balanced our problems and potential problems. Again, I'm glad we're top ... Delighted infact but I do have reservations about our confidence, form and goal threat. Its weird, we know our team can play much better yet we're still up there in the mix and for that I'm grateful.

That's a good post mate...

by **Scottbot** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:34 am

Owzat wrote:There's little point focusing on positives, it's the weaknesses that can be corrected which could make us title contenders.

Which is fair enough on a footy forum like this but I get the impression the fans in the ground are taking the same view. Why else would anyone boo their team off when they have just gone top of the league? There is too much 'half glass empty' thinking around this place for me at the moment.

by **Scottbot** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:37 am

bigmick wrote:If Keane can begin to play anywhere near to his potential, it would an absolutely huge difference to the team IMHO. That could well be the key.

I think you're right there. With Torres out we need Keane and babel to step up and contribute over the Christmas period and beyond.

by **Bam** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:31 pm

I agree with Mick in that we'll need an inform Keane to keep the momentum going through the festive season and beyond. The thing is though, call me Pessimistic I just can't see Keanes form turning around that quickly. Maybe if he has a good allround game against PSV capped off with a goal something may come of it. I stand by what I said in agreance with Rafa about benching him on Saturday, but a run-out against a fairly average PSV team where he'll hopefully get a chance or two should become an indicator whether he should start at home to Hull this Saturday.

All that being said, its not that cut and dry with Keane at the moment. Its not just a case of waiting for a striker to go on a scoring track IMO. I think there is more to it than just this, Keane will have to lead the line better than he has done whomever his partner is. If he does start and starts on his own upfront I think that particular route is a non-starter, unless Gerrard can play right up behind him and support him just as much if not better than he does with Torres. You'd have to take away Gerrards defensive duties IMO to help the Irishman out, its not a position Keanes accustomed to. Mind you neither is leading the line in a two man attack, he's played off the shoulder of a target man in the past as others have mentioned, where as he'll be the focal point also in the build-up of our attacks.

Personally I've always felt Keane had the ability to come deep, collect the ball and create something amongst build up play. Maybe I have called that wrong and he is at his best deployed playing off the shoulder of the CB and TBF we need Keane in goal scoring positions more than we do in our build up play.

Keanes overall game does need to improve but to get the best out of him the likes of Riera, Gerrard, Kuyt and Benayoun have to be on their game. Firstly long balls up from the back cannot be adopted as a Plan A' or B' approach while Keanes upfront. The ball needs to be on the deck and has to be played through the midfield rather than over it, if the oppo sit deep our passing will have to be patient but also probing. We signed Riera to overcome this problem somewhat to give us width and with a side sitting deep we need to use that width much better than we have been in the last couple of matches. We'll need to stretch the pitch and make it as wide as possible and inject that bit of pace in our passing at the right time. For Gerrard, Alonso or Yossi to find some space to feed in the likes of Keane or Kuyt or whomever through the middle.

Keane is able to make the runs and provide the movement but an understanding needs to happen between him and his teamates which hasnt developed yet. Until that understanding is worked on, plus the fact that Keane himself has to learn how to lead the line and be a focal point rather than a foil for a partner nothing much will change.

Like Mick said if he finds some form when his opportunity arises the team will benefit from it, but it does look bleak at the moment TBH. Riera has gone off the boil, Gerrard too and the teams overall confidence has suffered as a result, coupled with the fact they've been booed off at Anfield.

In saying that though the PSV game has come at the right time for us to gain the confidence back, the lads need to find their passing game again because lets be fair it went missing at Blackburn. Hopefully a goal or two will come and the confidence come flooding back with an alround good team performance. It has been a worry to see us perform so under par lately and we need team confidence and goals to eradicate this, PSV should be the perfect game before a sterner test in breaking teams down against Hull on Saturday comes, again I can't stess enough the need to use the width of our wide men in helping us to break teams like Hull down.

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