Liverpool FC Forum

by **dawson99** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:52 pm

Sad thing is we are at the point where I feel better playing Chelsea away than I feel play 'boro at home

by **Effes** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:40 pm

Tony,

What does it matter how Babel's goal went in? If he'd tw@tted it in you'd be happy?
But he didnt hit it right, so theoretically we were lucky?

by **bigmick** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:59 pm

Tony there is a bit of a contradiction here on the goals front. You can't on the one hand say you don't care if we score goals by Torres beating four blokes or it going in off kuyt's erse, and then bang on continuously about our flukey goals against the other "big four" teams. I think you make many good points in your posts and I understand both your frustration and your concern, but just occasionally there is a point which doesn't make sense to me.

I totally agree with your point about the flowing football and the "classy" appearance of the respective teams in motion, but I am less concerned by it than you. I remember Arsenal winning the title under George Graham for the first time in years and grinding their way towards it, while Man Utd's team under Ferguson which broke their drought was workmanlike for long periods. Only the arrival of Cantona as my memory serves really gave them that "fantasy" ingredient which elevated them above the norm. We too are going to have to win it the hard way if indeed we are capable of winning it at all (which I think we are). We will no doubt hit a purple patch at some point and roll teams over 3 or 4 nil for a few games in succession, but my feeling is that we're going to win a lot of games by the odd goal, almost inevitably as a result of the captain or Torres carrying us over the line.

Did we learn anything against West Ham? Not really I don't think. We saw that we find it difficult when teams sit in, we saw that without Torres we find goals hard to come by. We knew both of those things anyway though surely? We know for instance that if Torres was to be out for three months or so we will be extreme outsiders for the title. No news there though surely.

If we do ultimately come up short, then as I've said earlier we will probably look back on the last three weeks and come to the conclusion that that's where we lost it. People will probably look at signings such as Keane for 20 million, Babel for 11 million, Lucas for 5 and Dossena for 7 and wonder if it could have been different. Everyone will have a theory for sure, but now is not the time, I don't think anyway.

Now is the first time for eons that we've been involved in the title race and I'm absolutely loving it TBH. I couldn't give a sh!t that we don't look pretty, I couldn't care less that we could be accused of being a two man team. We are Chelsea in reverse, they can relentlessly roll over smaller teams but have one point in nine, AT HOME, against the big four. We struggle against the smaller teams but have won two fom two against the big four. Same as Man U, one point in nine against big four oppo this season so far. Now if, and it's a big if, we can keep on getting results against the smaller clubs to hang in there, it'll then come down to our performances against the bigger clubs. It won't be easy, and I'm not sure by any means that we'll do it, but I'm going to enjoy the attempt anyway. Feck me it's been long enough coming that's for sure.

by **lakes10** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:52 pm

Effes wrote:
devaney wrote:IF WE COULD GET RID OF CHILDISH AND EXCESSIVELY NEGATIVE members then the forum would be a better place - LIKE ANFIELD!

Anfield IS negative at the moment!

you are right its not, last week it was good, not as good as the late 80's but still the best ground and fans in the world.

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:40 pm

Great post Bigmick!

by **neil** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:47 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
Dundalk wrote:Setanta coverege the other night of the Liverpool game was sp bad that they have been forced to come up with a new logo

Yeah, wasn't it just. I imagined that some silly eejit was drunk somewhere in a darkened room fiddling about in the dark with a loose wire trying to get the picture back. Fecking Irish, eh? Can't get nothing right.

haha, so you couldnt even watch most of the match on your telly yet you came out bubblin :censored:

after the game finished. Blimey your a star.

by **tonyeh** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:55 pm

bigmick wrote:
Tony there is a bit of a contradiction here on the goals front. You can't on the one hand say you don't care if we score goals by Torres beating four blokes or it going in off kuyt's erse, and then bang on continuously about our flukey goals against the other "big four" teams.

But, I haven't actually said that. My pont about the lucky goals is limited to the Utd and Chelsea games this year. I only make the point, because there are some, both on and off the board that seem to think that these games are some sort of performance yardstick for Liverpool. But I think cold analysis shows that not to be the case.

I totally agree with your point about the flowing football and the "classy" appearance of the respective teams in motion, but I am less concerned by it than you. I remember Arsenal winning the title under George Graham for the first time in years and grinding their way towards it, while Man Utd's team under Ferguson which broke their drought was workmanlike for long periods. Only the arrival of Cantona as my memory serves really gave them that "fantasy" ingredient which elevated them above the norm. We too are going to have to win it the hard way if indeed we are capable of winning it at all (which I think we are). We will no doubt hit a purple patch at some point and roll teams over 3 or 4 nil for a few games in succession, but my feeling is that we're going to win a lot of games by the odd goal, almost inevitably as a result of the captain or Torres carrying us over the line.

Did we learn anything against West Ham? Not really I don't think. We saw that we find it difficult when teams sit in, we saw that without Torres we find goals hard to come by. We knew both of those things anyway though surely? We know for instance that if Torres was to be out for three months or so we will be extreme outsiders for the title. No news there though surely.

If we do ultimately come up short, then as I've said earlier we will probably look back on the last three weeks and come to the conclusion that that's where we lost it. People will probably look at signings such as Keane for 20 million, Babel for 11 million, Lucas for 5 and Dossena for 7 and wonder if it could have been different. Everyone will have a theory for sure, but now is not the time, I don't think anyway.

Now is the first time for eons that we've been involved in the title race and I'm absolutely loving it TBH. I couldn't give a sh!t that we don't look pretty, I couldn't care less that we could be accused of being a two man team. We are Chelsea in reverse, they can relentlessly roll over smaller teams but have one point in nine, AT HOME, against the big four. We struggle against the smaller teams but have won two fom two against the big four. Same as Man U, one point in nine against big four oppo this season so far. Now if, and it's a big if, we can keep on getting results against the smaller clubs to hang in there, it'll then come down to our performances against the bigger clubs. It won't be easy, and I'm not sure by any means that we'll do it, but I'm going to enjoy the attempt anyway. Feck me it's been long enough coming that's for sure.

The rest of your post I agree with, but in regards to Arsenal grinding it out under Graham, I do think the stakes are higher these days and the Premiership is a tougher nut to crack, with little tolerance for slip ups. We cannot deny that Utd and Chelsea are great teams and every slip we make is another feather in their respective caps. Some people were writing off Utd, with the bad patch they were having at the beginning of the season, but somehow they are now a few points behind and a game in hand and Chelsea have that goal difference that we cannot possibly hope to emulate. I doubt that Arsenal will be in the running as the time goes on, but they did turn the tables on a very strong Chelsea side at the weekend, so you never know. You simply cannot write them off.

I think what I "learned" at West Ham, was that Keane is not going to do it at Anfield (or at least not this year) and that Rafa will persist in folly, even to the detriment of the team he's managing. Those sub choices were unbelievable and are simply a continuation of the same mistake that Rafa has made numerous times. But other than that, no there's nothng "new" as it were. Liverpool's difficulty in finishing hs been there for a couple of seasons, as has the bad passing and lack of possession. I swear at times they seem to be belting the ball at each other with little or no control. Certainly they are not the superb passing team they were in the 80's. I think that's down to the way the manager handles the team to a large degree and I don't think that'll change as long as Rafa remains. That's not a call for his head, by the way.

I too, am absolutely loving this season. None of us should really HAVE to say that and I think that's why there's the worry over the customary November blip matches and the current form, which is bad. Even though it's just December, it's the first real sniff of a title challenging team we've had for ages.

As far as results are concerned, I couldn't care less if we don't do well against the others in the so called "big four" so long as they're not all losses, but we absolutely MUST do it at the likes of Stoke, Spurs, Fulham and West Ham.

by **Igor Zidane** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:04 pm

tonyeh wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Tony there is a bit of a contradiction here on the goals front. You can't on the one hand say you don't care if we score goals by Torres beating four blokes or it going in off kuyt's erse, and then bang on continuously about our flukey goals against the other "big four" teams.

But, I haven't actually said that. My pont about the lucky goals is limited to the Utd and Chelsea games this year. I only make the point, because there are some, both on and off the board that seem to think that these games are some sort of performance yardstick for Liverpool. But I think cold analysis shows that not to be the case.

I totally agree with your point about the flowing football and the "classy" appearance of the respective teams in motion, but I am less concerned by it than you. I remember Arsenal winning the title under George Graham for the first time in years and grinding their way towards it, while Man Utd's team under Ferguson which broke their drought was workmanlike for long periods. Only the arrival of Cantona as my memory serves really gave them that "fantasy" ingredient which elevated them above the norm. We too are going to have to win it the hard way if indeed we are capable of winning it at all (which I think we are). We will no doubt hit a purple patch at some point and roll teams over 3 or 4 nil for a few games in succession, but my feeling is that we're going to win a lot of games by the odd goal, almost inevitably as a result of the captain or Torres carrying us over the line.

Did we learn anything against West Ham? Not really I don't think. We saw that we find it difficult when teams sit in, we saw that without Torres we find goals hard to come by. We knew both of those things anyway though surely? We know for instance that if Torres was to be out for three months or so we will be extreme outsiders for the title. No news there though surely.

If we do ultimately come up short, then as I've said earlier we will probably look back on the last three weeks and come to the conclusion that that's where we lost it. People will probably look at signings such as Keane for 20 million, Babel for 11 million, Lucas for 5 and Dossena for 7 and wonder if it could have been different. Everyone will have a theory for sure, but now is not the time, I don't think anyway.

Now is the first time for eons that we've been involved in the title race and I'm absolutely loving it TBH. I couldn't give a sh!t that we don't look pretty, I couldn't care less that we could be accused of being a two man team. We are Chelsea in reverse, they can relentlessly roll over smaller teams but have one point in nine, AT HOME, against the big four. We struggle against the smaller teams but have won two fom two against the big four. Same as Man U, one point in nine against big four oppo this season so far. Now if, and it's a big if, we can keep on getting results against the smaller clubs to hang in there, it'll then come down to our performances against the bigger clubs. It won't be easy, and I'm not sure by any means that we'll do it, but I'm going to enjoy the attempt anyway. Feck me it's been long enough coming that's for sure.

The rest of your post I agree with, but in regards to Arsenal grinding it out under Graham, I do think the stakes are higher these days and the Premiership is a tougher nut to crack, with little tolerance for slip ups. We cannot deny that Utd and Chelsea are great teams and every slip we make is another feather in their respective caps. Some people were writing off Utd, with the bad patch they were having at the beginning of the season, but somehow they are now a few points behind and a game in hand and Chelsea have that goal difference that we cannot possibly hope to emulate. I doubt that Arsenal will be in the running as the time goes on, but they did turn the tables on a very strong Chelsea side at the weekend, so you never know. You simply cannot write them off.

I think what I "learned" at West Ham, was that Keane is not going to do it at Anfield (or at least not this year) and that Rafa will persist in folly, even to the detriment of the team he's managing. Those sub choices were unbelievable and are simply a continuation of the same mistake that Rafa has made numerous times. But other than that, no there's nothng "new" as it were. Liverpool's difficulty in finishing hs been there for a couple of seasons, as has the bad passing and lack of possession. I swear at times they seem to be belting the ball at each other with little or no control. Certainly they are not the superb passing team they were in the 80's. I think that's down to the way the manager handles the team to a large degree and I don't think that'll change as long as Rafa remains. That's not a call for his head, by the way.

I too, am absolutely loving this season. None of us should really HAVE to say that and I think that's why there's the worry over the customary November blip matches and the current form, which is bad. Even though it's just December, it's the first real sniff of a title challenging team we've had for ages.

As far as results are concerned, I couldn't care less if we don't do well against the others in the so called "big four" so long as they're not all losses, but we absolutely MUST do it at the likes of Stoke, Spurs, Fulham and West Ham.

Now that's a fair post , i don't agree with it but , it's a good post. Good on yer lash.

by **neil** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:11 pm

I'm under the impression that we continually finish the second half of the season stronger than any of the other top 4 and have done for quite a while(obviously someone will prove me wrong here) thats why I'm pretty confident of the title this time. We're always cr4p at this time of the year.

by **bigmick** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:32 pm

neil wrote:I'm under the impression that we continually finish the second half of the season stronger than any of the other top 4 and have done for quite a while(obviously someone will prove me wrong here) thats why I'm pretty confident of the title this time. We're always cr4p at this time of the year.

Bit of an urban myth that Neil which pro-rotationists used to cling to in order to justify the "delayed gazelle" theory. What normally happens, or has happened before this season, is that we rotate ourselves into dizziness for the first dozen or so games of the season, before selecting relatively sensibly for a while and going on a run. This usually brings us within 14 or so points of the leaders, and from then on we normally hold our own give or take a little.

Last season for instance Chelsea came from well back off the pace (behind us even) to get within a whisker of winning it. In so doing they ran past us and Arsenal without any problem, and in the meantime found enough energy to outrun us in extra-time in the Champions League. All that after a couple of days previously beating Man Utd in the league, and all done with next to no rotation.

Rafa around that period was selecting fairly sensibly for us as well and had been for some time. Seeing Chelsea's sustained run into joint leadership of the Prem, and within a John Terry spot kick of the Champions league win without really rotating, may just have been the final illuminatory factor in his "seeing of the light" period.

by **neil** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:44 pm

who had bigmick in the sweep?

by **bigmick** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:52 pm

Whoever it was they won't be collecting just yet. I'm notoriously sh!t at stats amongst other things, so I'd be waiting until someone has provided categorical proof before I'd be dishing out the kitty. I'm absolutely certain about last season not being an example of us outrunnign the other big four teams as Chelsea went past us like we were stood still, but the season we won the FA Cup we went a long run at the end. As I recall though the "LFC factor" came into play there, as the Premiership was won a long time before the final game.

Where's Owz when you need him?

by **Emerald Red** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:42 pm

neil wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Dundalk wrote:Setanta coverege the other night of the Liverpool game was sp bad that they have been forced to come up with a new logo

Yeah, wasn't it just. I imagined that some silly eejit was drunk somewhere in a darkened room fiddling about in the dark with a loose wire trying to get the picture back. Fecking Irish, eh? Can't get nothing right.

haha, so you couldnt even watch most of the match on your telly yet you came out bubblin after the game finished. Blimey your a star.

And you think I drew my conclusion from just one game? Take a look and read some of the other posters on this, and other sites, before jumping down my throat for having the balls to say something first that no one else had said on here. I'm not alone with this view, and even some of our players share it. BTW, I did watch most of the game, I just missed five minutes or so. Regardless, I still heard all that I needed to hear and that was the boos at the final whistle.

by **rafa09** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:51 pm

hi guys it,s 3rd of dec and guess what? WERE STILL TOP OF THE PREM

by **Kharhaz** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:24 am

We saw that we find it difficult when teams sit in, we saw that without Torres we find goals hard to come by.

In all fairness, this season especially, we have found goals hard to come by even with Torres in the team. Did he not play against stoke? Torres has resorted at times to simply working as hard as Kuyt and Gerrard to just get the ball in the first place. The problem is when teams sit in front of us and defend we have no idea at all, we cannot blame lacking our key players because we have had them and still failed to break teams down. We just simply have no idea when it comes to playing defensive teams.

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