Liverpool FC Forum

dawson99 wrote:IF we were to take organs.. why not take from 3rd World? They have the biggest population/money /economic/food problems. We can't afford to keep bailing them out when we can't look after our own country so why teh feck not?
Kill two birds with one stone. Help one person and deal with the over population problem

The fact is, not all people are equal. What s@int meant, if you ask me, was that all dead should be allowed to be harvested no matter what. I think that countries where they can't help themselves should help us. If we give them 500 million for whatever they give us some organs... fair deal, as so far we've got nothing back and the problem still there. Feck it, what I really think is. We should not give any other countries money at the moment when we need to spend billions on our own country which we cant afford.

If at home my mum was hungry and so was someone across the street, I'd say 'f*ck the person across the street, mum comes first"
thats how UK should look at how it spends money.

And, REALLY harsh. They are dying anyway, at least let them help someone along the way.
Couldn't care less, I won't give to any charities to asve Africa or whatever. I give to shelter, RSPCA, charities that will help where I live, coz trust me, we need the money as well. Its not a race thing, its a 'save ourselves first" thing. And we need saving

Bad Bob wrote:

s@int wrote:So basically what you are saying Bob is that the dead have rights and that is more important than the fact that these rights can and will lead to even more deaths.  The Argentinians trapped in the Andes obviously didn't agree. (I am not arguing we should fkn eat them before anyone starts)

If you and your family were starving, and next door there was a field full of food rotting because the owner had died and there was no one to gather the food in, I take it that you would watch your family die rather than infringe on your dead neighbours rights and take some food?

There are millions of people dying in Africa every year, their bodies just thrown into mass graves, and you would rather respect the rights of the dead than use their organs to save countless lives around the world? Yet people find it quite acceptable to end life almost before its begun with experiments on embrio's and abortion.

A dead body is a dead body, if its got cholera or whichever contagious disease the body is burned, the dead persons wishes and rights arn't considered, because its a threat to life. Similarly if a dead body can be used to save lives IT SHOULD BE. 

While I find your view admirable, I also find it distasteful that ANYONE would wish to see pain, suffering and death in thousands of people because of some outdated view of morality and the rights of the dead.

The West wont provide the starving Africans with the money to change things significantly now or in the forseable future, so its a vicious cycle of death. Better to use those bodies for something of value rather than rotting in some mass pit. While the money their families/towns/villages/government would receive could be used to improve things in a substantial way.

Death and nothing on the one hand....... life for thousands and a future for millions on the other. I know which I think is the most humane.

Yes its morbid to think of surgeons standing by waiting of people to die before they gather the harvest, but people are just standing by waiting of these people to die anyway.

Someone commits suicide and everyone says "what a waste of a life", some body rotting in a grave is also a waste if it could be used to save lives.

Once you are dead you are dead and all that is left is the chance of life for someone else, but you would rather honour the dead at the expense of the living.

Maybe we should turn the clock back and say all bodies are sacrosanct and shouldn't be touched. So no experiments, no post mortums, no organ transplants , no blood transfusions.

When we die our bodies are allowed to be dissected, our organs removed weighed analysed, but make sure you put all the bits back before we are buried because ? What fkn difference does it make , your fkn dead and unlikely to ever need those organs again. 

Anyway you can see it whichever way you want, personally I am pro life not pro death. If you think its barbaric to treat the dead in such an unseemly manner, I see the forced deaths of thousands of people because of sentiment as barbaric.

Well, Saint, I wasn't talking about the dead because originally you weren't either.  There was a lot of talk about harvesting organs from dying Africans but no mention about those already dead.  But if that's what you'd like to focus on now, I'll respond.  Would I oppose organ donations from dead Africans?  No, so long as the families of the dead approved.  If they didn't then those wishes need to be honoured in the same way our society honours the expressed wishes of the deceased or those of their living family members.  Basically, if the rights protecting the wishes of the dead are good enough for us then they're good enough for anyone on earth.  Without exception.

And, this leads me back to my major frustration with your original comments.  Why the focus on 3rd World peoples at all?  If organ harvesting is so necessary, why not harvest organs from your own dead?  Why not pass a law in Britain that makes it mandatory for all citizens to donate all of their healthy organs and usable soft tissue upon their death?  Why set up this whole dichotomy between the worthy British, who need these organs to survive, and the unworthy, 'primitive', 'spear sharpening', 'cave painting' 'no marks' who are just going to die anyway.  And, newsflash, not everyone living in Africa let alone the wider "3rd World" are destined to die horrible, wasteful deaths through lack of foreign aid.  Millions of Africans live healthy, productive, 'civilized' lives--it's a massive, diverse and vibrant continent, FFS, and not some barren wasteland of the damned.  The colonial mindset of the civilized Englishman (or Canadian, for that matter) vs. the primitive African/Aborigine/Native American etc. should have been eradicated a long, long time ago.  The fact that it still exists and that it can be so breezily inserted into a debate over organ harvesting troubles me deeply.

Judge wrote:presumed consent should be implemented

then people will have to opt out - that would be better

dawson99 wrote:Family of deceased should not get a say. Organs is organs. anyone who won't give them to help others should be shot (then have organs harvested)

I sound cruel and horrible and a complete bar steward. But I'd rather spend money on our homeless, our elderly and needy than a country which will never be out of trouble that I really couldn't care less about.

dawson99 wrote:MEtalhead, no offence, I like you, you're a cool guy, but we are from different parts of the world. How much money does your country give to Africa? 65p tops?
UK still thinks it's a powerhouse, it isn't. we can't keep our own over the poverty line so why help others before our own? (And that's not racist before anyone asks, I'm not saying help only white brits or don't help anyone who isn't white)
It's complex, but the truth is the UK's in trouble, so f*ck Africa and sort ourselves out is what we should do. If we do that, whch we should, and if USA do that, whcih they should (they need to sort out there poverty line more than us) then Africa cannot survive, it's that simple. And IF they cannot survive, then lets go get some organs. Otherwise they will just be wasted. Waste is bad.

dawson99 wrote:MEtalhead, no offence, I like you, you're a cool guy, but we are from different parts of the world. How much money does your country give to Africa? 65p tops?
UK still thinks it's a powerhouse, it isn't. we can't keep our own over the poverty line so why help others before our own? (And that's not racist before anyone asks, I'm not saying help only white brits or don't help anyone who isn't white)
It's complex, but the truth is the UK's in trouble, so f*ck Africa and sort ourselves out is what we should do. If we do that, whch we should, and if USA do that, whcih they should (they need to sort out there poverty line more than us) then Africa cannot survive, it's that simple. And IF they cannot survive, then lets go get some organs. Otherwise they will just be wasted. Waste is bad.

Number 9 wrote:This thread is a total Fu*king wake up call,or if its not it should be!
Theres a lot of little bit'chfests going on,old grudges revisited,cries for attention and all the rest,all rolled into one big brown snowball heading down a hill!

It all started because Saint put his views across,now I'm not saying i agree with what he said.In fact I am totally lost..but maybe I'm thick. What i will say is that his views are his right,if thats what he thinks then so be it.
We have people that obviously disagree,but is there really a need to disagree in such a way that you put across that it has actually ruined your life..that you are sooooo upset that you are disturbed that a fellow human being could think such a thing?
FFS its a planet we live on,it takes all sorts of opinions and mindsets to make it work..if everyone thought the same way it would just be all grey and boring.
Sometimes a controversial opinion is needed so those that fall into the moral code of everyday average procedure and conduct actually think for themselves as opposed to conforming to the general mindset,usually orchestrated by the government,church,religion etc.
Or also by third parties that have been influenced by the above mentioned(albeit at an earlier stage)
Saints not gonna go to Sudan with a box of scalpels and hack fu'ck out of people..In a perfect world,Sabres not gonna be so sensitive,Bob wont be so strict,Woof wont accuse JBG of being someone else,JBG wont huff anyway,everyone else will stop crying about something they never really thought about,Bam will stop posting at silly hours,Judge will admit he's gay,Ciggy can learn how to photoshop Heimdall proper,Nans hubby gets off the sofa............lots of other things as well!
But lifes not perfect...deal with it!

ok, you should add also barry won't moan and moan and moan

stop moaning

 

Number 9 wrote:In a perfect world,Sabres not gonna be so sensitive,Bob wont be so strict,Woof wont accuse JBG of being someone else,JBG wont huff anyway,everyone else will stop crying about something they never really thought about,Bam will stop posting at silly hours,Judge will admit he's gay,Ciggy can learn how to photoshop Heimdall proper,Nans hubby gets off the sofa............

Judge will never admit that !