Liverpool FC Forum

by **Owzat** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:59 am

We signed Keane in the summer for £20.3m (or thereabouts) He has scored just four goals in 20 appearances, four appearances of which were off the bench and a combined 30 minutes playing time.

Are Torres and Keane gelling? Is Keane missing too many chances? Should we revert to one up front, a formation that has proved very successful in 2008 and that has seen Kuyt emerge as a good RM and score 11 goals in the calendar year so far despite playing a less central (goalscoring) role. Riera has come in and impressed on the opposite flank. Torres hasn't hit top form through injury and arguably because of the switch of formation to accommodate Keane.

Torres (Aug 07-Dec 07) : 15 goals in 23 appearances
Torres (Jan 08-May 08) : 18 goals in 23 appearances

Very conveniently split nicely in half. The second half of the season saw us (with Torres in the side) play Arsenal three times, Chelsea twice (Torres missed the league game) and Man Utd away, so there were more tight and tricky games in the latter half.

Since Keane signed the story of Torres and the pairing is chequered. Keane has scored 3/4 of his goals when Torres wasn't on the pitch :

Goals scored with combinations of strikers

Keane, no Torres : Keane 3 goals
Torres, no Keane : Torres 2 goals
Torres and Keane : Torres 3 goals, Keane 1 goal

One of Torres' goals against Man City came before Keane came on, the other very soon after Keane came on. Torres' winner against Sunderland came after Keane had gone off. Bear in mind Torres is a quality striker and has played alongside Keane more often than up front alone, so the prospects of scoring as a solo frontman are greatly reduced if he isn't playing as one!

We're not seeing the best of Torres this season, is that because of his injury or because the formation has been adjusted to accomodate a £20.3m striker? Some say Keane was signed so we could play 4-4-2, I suggest we signed a striker because we needed one and it proved worth it, even if the choice and price doesn't convince everyone, as nearly 1/3 of our games have been played without Torres so far

Torres (Aug 08-Nov 08) : 5 goals in 14 appearances

One thing is certain, this is Torres' worst half season spell so far. He'd need to score something like a goal a game from now until January to match previous half seasons

by **Toffeehater** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:19 am

4-4-2 , for me . Firstly to comment on torres , i don't think he will get 33 goals this season but maybe around 25 goals . He has not scored this many firstly due to his injuries , secondly he has had a long season did not get much rest due to the European championship . 5 goals in 14 appearance , in some of those games , he was trying to regain match fitness .

Now for the partnership , i think 4-4-2 is our best partnership as i don't fancy playing 1 upfront against 4 defenders , the striker is not going to get much joy and especially now that defenders have figured out torres's style of play its going to be even harder , thats where keane comes into play , he takes a couple of defenders along with him and torres will have a little more joy , also the wingers will join in the attack and so will gerrard . Keane's movement off the ball is good , he always finds space and can create goals as well . The player sitting infront of the defense will either be masch or xabi but in terms of better ability there i'd prefer masch . On the right , kuyt has made that roles his and is doing well there 7 goals this season but not all have come from the right . On the left riera has given us balance and he can cross , dribble and ball control is fantastic , does not give away the ball unnecessarily but sometimes he's a little selfish , he dribbles when he can pass and that results in losing the ball , it has happened on a few occasions .

by **Bam** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:03 am

Its a tough one (Best formation when Keane and Torres are both fit) I keep finding myself in two minds about it.

I dont know about them both being fit, but if both are on fine goal scoring form then the pair should start together. At the moment though Keane doesnt look much more productive infront of goal than Kuyt when the Dutchman was played upfront. Like it or not strikers will be judged on their goals by many, and while I sympathise with Keane to an extent that he's finding himself playing as a lone striker. To which I personally dont think is best suited to his game, he still hasnt hit the ground running at Anfield.

I know he is a good player, I like him and rate him, I appreciate his hard work and his clever movement. But when you have players like Gerrard, Mascha, Alonso Riera and Kuyt ! Who are seriously knocking on the door and in good form a decision has got to be made for the good of the team. Last season when Xabi Alonso wasnt on form I wanted him dropped, I dont believe in this day and age a team can really afford to carry a player in the hope that he'll snap out of his own blip and come good. Even if we know the quality is there, especially if there are other players of similar quality who are able to come in and do the job. Dont get me wrong I dont expect a player to come straight into the first team and produce the goods, I know it wont always happen. But after a certain amount of time a decision needs to be made. Keane looked great last weekend against West Brom. But if Rafa decides to play with five in midfield for any given reason next weekend, Torres is the man to play upfront on his own.

So as it happens this year Alonso is in form so to Mascha and the rest of the midfield and unfortunately for Keane he isnt quite up there, I dont believe either one of Mascha or Alonso should lose their place in the team so that Keane can find his feet. It may sound harsh and TBH it probably is but its about whats best for LFC.

With the team as they are at the moment only defeated in one game this season and Torres returning back from injury I think I'll sway back to the 4-2-3-1 formation. Next week it will probably 4-4-2

. I dont mind either formation I'm happy with both and I dont believe all this turd written on here that the 4-2-3-1 formation is a "negative" formation ITS NOT !

But the selection of the formation change is not only about who is fit and on form. There is more involved than that, like their fitness levels, the oppositon etc etc ...

To cut a long story short, with Torres coming back from injury I think Keane needs to make way for a little while and see where that takes us. Knowing Rafa though he'll go back to 4-4-2 next week.

by **Owzat** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:20 am

Bam wrote:With the team as they are at the moment only defeated in one game this season and Torres returning back from injury I think I'll sway back to the 4-2-3-1 formation. Next week it will probably 4-4-2 . I dont mind either formation I'm happy with both and I dont believe all this turd written on here that the 4-2-3-1 formation is a "negative" formation ITS NOT !

Eloquently put. It's funny how we scored more goals with Torres on his own up front than we have this season

Aug 07-Dec 07 : P19 W10 D7 L2 F33 A12 PTS 37
Jan 08-May 08 : P19 W11 D6 L2 F34 A16 PTS 39

So we scored one more goal when we largely favoured one up front last season towards the latter third of the season. It didn't greatly impact on our results, we played Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd away, and Boro, West Ham, Tottenham and Bolton away, in the second half of the season as well as having the latter stages of the Champions League to distract us (although some would argue the group stages did that too)

Aug 08-Nov 08 : P13 W10 D2 L1 F21 A8 PTS 32

We've scored a lot less goals and there's plenty of scope to dip close to last season results. Torres recently missed four league games and we also won without him at home to the mancs as well, so it's not as if we're playing 4-4-2 and winning to cement the case for two up front. We were always bound to hit a dip in form, just like we did last season with one win in four also the dip then.

Maybe the strongest single case to be made against 4-4-2 is that we started with two up front for the first FIVE games of the season and Torres' only goal came AFTER Keane was subbed. And Torres' goals against Citeh weren't to do with Keane alongside as he only came on a minute or two before Torres' second. So the first nine games of the season give little reason to believe two up front works. And the last nine games have mostly seen one up front because Torres has been injured. That's a big chunk of the season, Keane has scored three times on his own up front in the last nine games and two of those before being replaced by Torres. If anything Keane seems to do better on his own up front, despite many of us including myself doubting he can - largely because he isn't scoring enough and is not always hitting the cow's ar$e despite having a massive f in banjo presented to him a few feet from said cow's ar$e.

by **Scottbot** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:32 am

Owzat wrote:We signed Keane in the summer for £20.3m (or thereabouts) He has scored just four goals in 20 appearances, four appearances of which were off the bench and a combined 30 minutes playing time.

You do give the guy a hard time. Is it ok for me to say Keane has scored 4 goals in 9 games? (I think that is his current run) I think 4 in 10 was the stat you used to big up Voronin in another thread so perhaps we can say the same for Keane when we are discussing his form.

I think we will continue to see a mixture of both 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-2 and that is fine by me. I think the team have showed that they are adept at playing both formations. The chopping and changing of formations over the years under Rafa has certainly frustrated many fans and no doubt it has cost us the odd game BUT I think it's a fair comment to say we have the most tactically astute side in the league with players who know their roles within a variety of formations. We are more than capable of making both formations work.

by **Number 9** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:28 pm

Thunder..Thunder..Thunderr!!! :buttrock

by **banana** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:57 pm

The best LFC team is one without Keane. Keane is not good enough to play for LFC and we should cut our losses by offloading him as soon as possible. The loss will be in the region £ 10 millions but that's the price you pay when you make the completely wrong choice.

Heskey
Diouf
Collymore
Keane

The list is long. Only Torres has been a big success from striker signings.

And Torres cost only about 20 % more than Keane!!!

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:00 pm

Bam wrote:Its a tough one (Best formation when Keane and Torres are both fit) I keep finding myself in two minds about it.

I dont know about them both being fit, but if both are on fine goal scoring form then the pair should start together. At the moment though Keane doesnt look much more productive infront of goal than Kuyt when the Dutchman was played upfront. Like it or not strikers will be judged on their goals by many, and while I sympathise with Keane to an extent that he's finding himself playing as a lone striker. To which I personally dont think is best suited to his game, he still hasnt hit the ground running at Anfield.

I know he is a good player, I like him and rate him, I appreciate his hard work and his clever movement. But when you have players like Gerrard, Mascha, Alonso Riera and Kuyt ! Who are seriously knocking on the door and in good form a decision has got to be made for the good of the team. Last season when Xabi Alonso wasnt on form I wanted him dropped, I dont believe in this day and age a team can really afford to carry a player in the hope that he'll snap out of his own blip and come good. Even if we know the quality is there, especially if there are other players of similar quality who are able to come in and do the job. Dont get me wrong I dont expect a player to come straight into the first team and produce the goods, I know it wont always happen. But after a certain amount of time a decision needs to be made. Keane looked great last weekend against West Brom. But if Rafa decides to play with five in midfield for any given reason next weekend, Torres is the man to play upfront on his own.

So as it happens this year Alonso is in form so to Mascha and the rest of the midfield and unfortunately for Keane he isnt quite up there, I dont believe either one of Mascha or Alonso should lose their place in the team so that Keane can find his feet. It may sound harsh and TBH it probably is but its about whats best for LFC.

With the team as they are at the moment only defeated in one game this season and Torres returning back from injury I think I'll sway back to the 4-2-3-1 formation. Next week it will probably 4-4-2 . I dont mind either formation I'm happy with both and I dont believe all this turd written on here that the 4-2-3-1 formation is a "negative" formation ITS NOT !

But the selection of the formation change is not only about who is fit and on form. There is more involved than that, like their fitness levels, the oppositon etc etc ...

To cut a long story short, with Torres coming back from injury I think Keane needs to make way for a little while and see where that takes us. Knowing Rafa though he'll go back to 4-4-2 next week.

Agreed. I'm not particularly bothered which formation we play as long as our most in form players are on the pitch and the tactics are tailored to exploit our opponents most effectively. I suspect we'll see both formations in abundance as the season progresses and both will be deployed to good effect. As long as the players playing in each formation know their role, I'm not overly bothered which way we line up, TBPH.

by **Number 9** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:05 pm

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:09 pm

banana wrote:Heskey
Diouf
Collymore
Keane

Heskey and Collymore did do their fair bit when partnered with Owen and Fowler. they werent as clinical as as the latter or Torres but they played their role well enough to justify their values at that period.
Diouf was/is a waste. Keane still has time to prove his worth.

as for formations, Torres on his own. his understanding with Gerrard is almost telepathic.

by **woof woof !** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:33 pm

Bam wrote:Its a tough one (Best formation when Keane and Torres are both fit) I keep finding myself in two minds about it.

I dont know about them both being fit, but if both are on fine goal scoring form then the pair should start together. At the moment though Keane doesnt look much more productive infront of goal than Kuyt when the Dutchman was played upfront. Like it or not strikers will be judged on their goals by many, and while I sympathise with Keane to an extent that he's finding himself playing as a lone striker. To which I personally dont think is best suited to his game, he still hasnt hit the ground running at Anfield.

I know he is a good player, I like him and rate him, I appreciate his hard work and his clever movement. But when you have players like Gerrard, Mascha, Alonso Riera and Kuyt ! Who are seriously knocking on the door and in good form a decision has got to be made for the good of the team. Last season when Xabi Alonso wasnt on form I wanted him dropped, I dont believe in this day and age a team can really afford to carry a player in the hope that he'll snap out of his own blip and come good. Even if we know the quality is there, especially if there are other players of similar quality who are able to come in and do the job. Dont get me wrong I dont expect a player to come straight into the first team and produce the goods, I know it wont always happen. But after a certain amount of time a decision needs to be made. Keane looked great last weekend against West Brom. But if Rafa decides to play with five in midfield for any given reason next weekend, Torres is the man to play upfront on his own.

So as it happens this year Alonso is in form so to Mascha and the rest of the midfield and unfortunately for Keane he isnt quite up there, I dont believe either one of Mascha or Alonso should lose their place in the team so that Keane can find his feet. It may sound harsh and TBH it probably is but its about whats best for LFC.

With the team as they are at the moment only defeated in one game this season and Torres returning back from injury I think I'll sway back to the 4-2-3-1 formation. Next week it will probably 4-4-2 . I dont mind either formation I'm happy with both and I dont believe all this turd written on here that the 4-2-3-1 formation is a "negative" formation ITS NOT !

But the selection of the formation change is not only about who is fit and on form. There is more involved than that, like their fitness levels, the oppositon etc etc ...

To cut a long story short, with Torres coming back from injury I think Keane needs to make way for a little while and see where that takes us. Knowing Rafa though he'll go back to 4-4-2 next week.

Good post Bam.

Certainly agree that on current form Mascherano or Alonso shouldn't be sacrificed in order to accommodate Keane.

I personally prefer the 4231 formation anyway, but having said that there will be times (form fitness oppo etc) when 442 could be the better option.

by **heimdall** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:46 pm

I'd like to see 4-4-2 given a proper go. Firstly I think it would suit Keane much better end secondly I think it would give Torres more room as the defenders wouldn't just be focussing 100% on him all the time. If 4-4-2 is not working then we can easily switch over to 4-5-1, either by switching Keane wide out right or bringing on Kuyt.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:22 pm

I don't mind either, but prefer a 4-4-2 generally speaking.

I don't think Keane and Torres have had sufficient time on the pitch to show what they can do together. In part due to him being subbed off or failing to earn a start after showing good form (Man City), but in the main down to Torres' injury.

The important point is we've shown we have two systems which are effective and can use at various stages of the season, depending on injuries, the opposition, and form of players. E.G. Arsenal, Manc's away, or away to a side like Wigan who have a strong midfield - 4-2-3-1, at home to any park the bus team 4-4-2. Generally, away in Europe -4-2-3-1.

Because we're a well drilled team, this degree of flexibility is (and can be) a key asset for us so long as we start players in positions they're familiar, and try and use our strongest side (i.e. limit the use Babel, Lucas, Benayoun, Pennant, El Zhar, and don't use Dossena/Degen).

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:54 pm

LFC2007 wrote:so long as we start players in positions they're familiar, and try and use our strongest side (i.e. limit the use Babel, Lucas, Benayoun, Pennant, El Zhar, and don't use Dossena/Degen).

That's the key. The players are savvy enough to be able to handle two formations so long as they play similar roles in each. And, either formation will give us the platform we need to see off most teams, so long as our best/most in-form players are on the pitch.

by **hello_red** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:56 pm

Dont really care as long as we are winning. If Keane dosnt do anthing for a game and it ends in a draw or worse a defeat then he should be dropped. But at the minute Torres needs to be played by coming on as he is coming back to fitness, and we dont wanna risk him rushing a starting place and getting injured again.

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