Liverpool FC Forum

by **Effes** » Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:40 pm

But Keane was having a really bad game - bringing Babel on for him
wasn't such an outrageous substitution.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:40 am

For the record; I don't think mid-week changes had any effect, in any capacity, on the outcome of the game today.

If anyone does think so, I'd be interested to see how they link the changes to the result.

by **metalhead** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:50 am

LFC2007 wrote:For the record; I don't think mid-week changes had any effect, in any capacity, on the outcome of the game today.

If anyone does think so, I'd be interested to see how they link the changes to the result.

Agreed.

we were unlucky with some of our chances today, have we had torres playing, maybe it would have been a different result, who knows.

We will be back to winning ways next week.

by **bigmick** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:47 am

I made a post in the match thread where I made a few observations. There were a number (I think I got to seventhly, but it might have been fifthly I can't be ersed to look back). In there, I said we were very unlucky, didn't take our chances, Riena should have saved the first goal etc etc etc etc. One of the ly's (it may have been sixthly but I can't recall) was where I said that ARGUABLY the rotation and styling in midweek didn't do us any favours. I don't really see how anyone could have a problem with that to be perfectly honest. You could argue that it didn't do us any harm I guess, you could certaintly argue that it made absolutely no difference whatsoever, but I simply was making the point that it's hard to argue that we played better or with more energy/sharpness/freshness as a result of the changes. I think it's hard to argue that we played better as a result anyway, although perhaps somebody will prove me wrong.

For what it's worth, i actually think the rotation had minimal effect. I don't think it made us play better, and I don't think it made us play a lot worse either. That's my opinion. I do think however that as I said at the time, we may have missed a trick by not playing a stromger team against Pompey and not winning more comfortably. Why? well I think we would have gone into the Spurs game with more momentum, even more belief than we had. DISCLAIMER-I AM NOT SAYING THAT'S WHY WE LOST THE GAME, IT WAS MERELY AN OBSERVATION I MADE IN THIS THREAD AFTER THE POMPEY GAME.

As it is, I suspect/believe that the fact that the minute we start styling we lose the next match is on this occasion coincidental. I don't however believe that the fact that we have previously cut down on the styling and have made the best start to the Premiership by any club in history is entirely coincidental. I do believe there are many reasons for our good start, but the reduction in rotation is a significant factor I am certain of it.

The benefits of missing one match, or coming on as a sub as opposed to starting a match have always been negligable IMHO. That's not to say I don't think that Keane will have been fractionally fresher than he would have been had he played against Pompey, but we are i think talking about fractions. Perhaps if he had played in that game and scored, ont he couple of occasions today when it opened up in front of him he might have shot as opposed to passing. Anyway, i'm simply thinking out aloud here, meandering with my thoughts which you've got to be very careful about around here.

DISCLAIMER-I AM NOT SAYING THAT IF KEANE HAD PLAYED AGAINST POMPEY HE WOULD HAVE SCORED AGAINST SPURS.

JUST TO REPEAT-ON THIS OCCASION I THINK THE ROTATION ON WEDNESDAY HAD LITTLE OR NO EFFECT ON THIS GAME. I don't though think the line up on Wednesday had any postive effects whatsoever on our performance today, and I retain my opinion that it was "overstyled" as selections go.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:06 am

bigmick wrote:...you could certaintly argue that it made absolutely no difference whatsoever, but I simply was making the point that it's hard to argue that we played better or with more energy/sharpness/freshness as a result of the changes.

...I do think however that as I said at the time, we may have missed a trick by not playing a stromger team against Pompey and not winning more comfortably. Why? well I think we would have gone into the Spurs game with more momentum, even more belief than we had.

I don't however believe that the fact that we have previously cut down on the styling and have made the best start to the Premiership by any club in history is entirely coincidental.

I would argue exactly that in the first paragraph for the reason that we didn't show any signs which implied we lacked momentum, or were suffering from a loss of rhythm. It simply wasn't a factor, IMO. I see what you're saying in the second, but I think during the game we seemed full of belief (up until the winner anyway), we seemed assured, and we dominated the game. As far as the beliefometer goes, I thought we were near full capacity.

The final bit, just a small correction of fact - I'm fairly certain Chelsea under Mourinho made a better Premiership start than us.

EDIT: Yes, 05/06 Chelsea - 28 pts after 10 games.

by **bigmick** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:09 am

LFC2007 wrote:The final bit, just a small correction of fact - I'm fairly certain Chelsea under Mourinho made a better Premiership start than us.

If they did mate my apologies. I read it somewhere on here and thought if it was on newkit it must be true. No doubt someone will prove/disprove it one way or 'tother before long.

by **maguskwt** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:07 am

bigmick wrote:I made a post in the match thread where I made a few observations. There were a number (I think I got to seventhly, but it might have been fifthly I can't be ersed to look back). In there, I said we were very unlucky, didn't take our chances, Riena should have saved the first goal etc etc etc etc. One of the ly's (it may have been sixthly but I can't recall) was where I said that ARGUABLY the rotation and styling in midweek didn't do us any favours. I don't really see how anyone could have a problem with that to be perfectly honest. You could argue that it didn't do us any harm I guess, you could certaintly argue that it made absolutely no difference whatsoever, but I simply was making the point that it's hard to argue that we played better or with more energy/sharpness/freshness as a result of the changes. I think it's hard to argue that we played better as a result anyway, although perhaps somebody will prove me wrong.

For what it's worth, i actually think the rotation had minimal effect. I don't think it made us play better, and I don't think it made us play a lot worse either. That's my opinion. I do think however that as I said at the time, we may have missed a trick by not playing a stromger team against Pompey and not winning more comfortably. Why? well I think we would have gone into the Spurs game with more momentum, even more belief than we had. DISCLAIMER-I AM NOT SAYING THAT'S WHY WE LOST THE GAME, IT WAS MERELY AN OBSERVATION I MADE IN THIS THREAD AFTER THE POMPEY GAME.

As it is, I suspect/believe that the fact that the minute we start styling we lose the next match is on this occasion coincidental. I don't however believe that the fact that we have previously cut down on the styling and have made the best start to the Premiership by any club in history is entirely coincidental. I do believe there are many reasons for our good start, but the reduction in rotation is a significant factor I am certain of it.

The benefits of missing one match, or coming on as a sub as opposed to starting a match have always been negligable IMHO. That's not to say I don't think that Keane will have been fractionally fresher than he would have been had he played against Pompey, but we are i think talking about fractions. Perhaps if he had played in that game and scored, ont he couple of occasions today when it opened up in front of him he might have shot as opposed to passing. Anyway, i'm simply thinking out aloud here, meandering with my thoughts which you've got to be very careful about around here.

DISCLAIMER-I AM NOT SAYING THAT IF KEANE HAD PLAYED AGAINST POMPEY HE WOULD HAVE SCORED AGAINST SPURS.

JUST TO REPEAT-ON THIS OCCASION I THINK THE ROTATION ON WEDNESDAY HAD LITTLE OR NO EFFECT ON THIS GAME. I don't though think the line up on Wednesday had any postive effects whatsoever on our performance today, and I retain my opinion that it was "overstyled" as selections go.

fine...

just absolutely gutted that we lost our 3 point advantage to chelsea...

by **bigmick** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:43 pm

Just a little revisit into the "R" thread, and I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to our momentum right now, in comparison to say before the Pompey game? I've long advocated the idea that momentum and self belief is the oxygen of a football team. Once you've got it, you cling onto it for dear life, riding the wave for as long as you can. When you eventually fall off it, it's imperative that you jump straight back on before the belief ebbs away further, surfing that rush of confidence and carrying all before you.

It makes sense to me that once you have that aforementioned momentum, as much as you can you do your very best not to lose it, to disturb it unnecessarily.

So a fact. We clearly aren't playing as well as we were a couple of weeks back. presumeably nobody would dispute that. Why? Is it just one of those things (we'll snap out of it etc etc), is it the players getting tired after playing thirteen matches or whatever it is, is it that we've started playing against better teams, is it that the selection against Pompey just slightly wobbled us and since then we haven't managed to right the ship, or is there no reason whatsoever?

Everyone will have their views of course. On reflection though and with the benifit of hindisight, has the styling against Pompey turned out to be a good idea, a bad one or has it had absolutely no effect whatsoever on our subsequent performances?

No need to say really what I think as most people would be able to guess. I do hope though that next time we get some momentum (and it's hopefully going to be soon or Chelsea will be disappearing over the horizon) we wiegh up the potential negative effects as well as the positve ones of styling. Already this current spell has all the early hallmarks of a bliiip, even if it's not quite yet a bliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip. Sensible teams please for the next few matches Rafa and lets get going again.

by **Jimmy the Weasel** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:40 pm

Quick aside - 6 changes for the scummers tonight. Anyone heard any hint of the "R" word in relation to them at all?

by **bigmick** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:51 pm

Jimmy the Weasel wrote:Quick aside - 6 changes for the scummers tonight. Anyone heard any hint of the "R" word in relation to them at all?

You won't be the first one who brings that up Jim. It's an ongoing theme, this "Fergie rotates as well". He does of course...

The thing is though, they have a much stronger and deeper squad than us for one. It's hard to imagine Jermaine Pennant and Yossi Benayoun getting a game at Man Utd for instance.

For two, and this ones crucial. They have the track record of fifteen years of winning things behind them. The collective belief that goes with that is immeasureble. Our players have NEVER ever been involved in a title race, not one of em. I think it's a different model to be honest.

Thirdly, if for instance keane had scored a few league goals, then fair enough rest him. No need to rest the bloke at Home to Pompey though when he had a good chance of breaking his duck.

Fourthly. They are rotating in the Champions League, a competition in which they absolutely KNOW they will qualify from. A veritable penalty kick regardless of the result tonight.

Fifthly, they are losing 1-0. The case for the prosecution ends your honour

.

by **NANNY RED** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:57 pm

Beat me to it Mick i was just gonna say that about the mancs getting beat 1-0 Swiped from under me nose

by **Sabre** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:59 pm

Fifthly, they are losing 1-0. The case for the prosecution ends your honour

No "the CL is very easy" thread this week mate?

(kidding)

On the last post you make, I still can't see a relationship between rotating a lot the odd game and losing momentum.

We played against a heavily rotated team yesterday, and to make things worse for them, with selectorial sillyness included, as they didn't line up their best striker. You didn't see Raul Garcia in Calderon, and you didn't see Little Luis in the starting eleven in Anfield. No Ignacio Camacho in Anfield, a different team. Not to mention the RB you fancied yesterday, Antonio Lopez, who was playing out of his natural position.

But they did a better game than the one that they made in Calderon, so probably it has to do more with team selections, and how you plan the game than anything else.

NOT DISPUTING that playing almost the same team helps to get momentum, I just don't think the players forget about playing together if you make them play with 7 youngsters the odd game.

by **Jimmy the Weasel** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:19 pm

bigmick wrote:
Jimmy the Weasel wrote:Quick aside - 6 changes for the scummers tonight. Anyone heard any hint of the "R" word in relation to them at all?

You won't be the first one who brings that up Jim. It's an ongoing theme, this "Fergie rotates as well". He does of course...

The thing is though, they have a much stronger and deeper squad than us for one. It's hard to imagine Jermaine Pennant and Yossi Benayoun getting a game at Man Utd for instance.

For two, and this ones crucial. They have the track record of fifteen years of winning things behind them. The collective belief that goes with that is immeasureble. Our players have NEVER ever been involved in a title race, not one of em. I think it's a different model to be honest.

Thirdly, if for instance keane had scored a few league goals, then fair enough rest him. No need to rest the bloke at Home to Pompey though when he had a good chance of breaking his duck.

Fourthly. They are rotating in the Champions League, a competition in which they absolutely KNOW they will qualify from. A veritable penalty kick regardless of the result tonight.

Fifthly, they are losing 1-0. The case for the prosecution ends your honour .

Yeh, wasn't so much a comment on rotation relating to us, more just the cliched way our team is described in the popular press!

I'm in complete agreement with everything you've just said to be honest - I gather that most of this topic has been done to death by you veterans, so won't go over my view for fear of :censored:

people off.

Suffice to say at the time I was posting, I resisted the urge to mention the fact that they were getting beaten because I have an uncanny knack of speaking too soon.

Be interesting to see how these decisions are reported, and the extent to which the "R" word is used by any of the more credible journos....

by **Jimmy the Weasel** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:28 pm

See?!?!

by **Sabre** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:41 pm

Speaking of journos, I think they play an important role. Not certainly in the case of Bigmick, who had concerns on rotation before the first english journo paid attention to it, but yes in terms of making it a "hot topic".

Here, in Spain, we have pundits that talk about the premiership. I don't think anyone would deny that Michael Robinson knows his football, and knows a lot about Liverpool football Club. Marcelino has played in England, Ferrer has played in England... they know what they're talking about.

I had *never* heard mentioning rotation as one of the possible factors to explain why we're not challenging.

I admit that Michael Robinson, when commenting the likes of Gerrard, he'll say the odd, "Gerrard, he has good games and better ones, the odd average game, but if available he must play, the team is stronger with him". Which is a line that implies you always have to play your best, but when making deep analysis, they never deemed the Rafa Style as one of the main problems. If it was such an important factor I guess they'd mention it.

So if a topic isn't that much in what the papers say, quite simply the fans do not pay that much attention to that.

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