Liverpool FC Forum

by **Scottbot** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:28 pm

I was just reading an article in the Echo and it got me thinking about the leadership and team dynamics needed to go and win a title. This is from David Moyes - But in using Jamie Carragher as an example, Moyes added: “There’s different types of leaders – people who will do it with their football ability, and the old type who roll up their sleeves, get stuck in, and encourage and clap the players.”

Liverpool are fortunate to have both – and their leader who leads by his football ability, the man who is officially the captain, produced another captain’s performance on Wednesday.

Now we've had this for several years now, Gerrard leading by his actions on the pitch, literally grabbing his teamates (and the game) by the scruff of the neck and dragging them over the finish line and Carra (ever since moving to CB), the vocal leader, pointing, shouting, screaming and organising. Now these two are perfect, how lucky are we? Two local lads, tremendous players who love the shirt. It got me looking at the rest of the team/squad to see if we had the leadership and team dynamic to actually build on this start and go on and win this thing. All great sides had, have and need that perfect sprinkling of talent, leadership, personality and luck to achieve what they do. If you look at united last season it's clear the talent was there in the shape of Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez. They had the youth and energy of the likes of Anderson and terriefic depth with players like Fletcher and Nani ready to step off the bench and contribute. But perhaps more importantly they had leadership and experience throughout the squad. Ferdinand, Giggs, Rooney and Neville (even when he isn't fit) are VERY strong personalities who (no doubt) stamp their authority on the dressing room. At Chelsea you look(ed) at john Terry, Lampard, Makelele (in his own quiet way) and of course, Mourinho for that leadership factor. On the flip side you look at Arsenal and you just know they are a Gary McAllister away from turning potential into a Championship.

I look at our side over the past few years and I've often got the impression that some of the players struggle to live up to the expectations/examples of our two Scouse leaders. It's as if they shrink in their shadows as opposed to growing in their presence but I get the feeling that things could be changing on that front. The united and Chelsea wins were massive results, not just because they are the teams to beat but because of the manner of the victories and the fact that both results came without our best striker and one of them without our inspirational skipper. There seems to be a bit of chemistry about this group of players this season. The late wins, the never say die attitude, the PATIENCE and refusal to panic all bode well for the future. I can see leadership throughout the side. I know he hasn't set the world on fire with his performances as yet but Robbie Keane (i'm sure) brings a whole bunch of intangibles with him, he's a vocal player, he points, gestures, applauds and claps his teamates in every game. This is something that CAN'T be factored into Owzat's stats. Then you look at Mascherano and Kuyt, are there two better example/tempo setters in football? Love him or loather him, Kuyt has become a leader in this current side. We've also got quiet assured leadership from the likes of Reina and Xabi and the experienced 'been there done that' from Hyppia.

There is definately a better chemistry and I don't doubt it has also been helped by the manager's decision to play a more settled side this season. Here's hoping he has stumbled upon a winning formula for the season to come...

by **Effes** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:41 pm

I remember Blackburn away last season, seeing Masch turn round to tell Carra to f*** off - I enjoyed
that. I didn't want the players to "kowtow" to Carra or Gerrard all the time.

Masch is defo developing into a leader on the pitch.

The more the merrier.

by **Jimmy the Weasel** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:43 pm

Effes wrote:I remember Blackburn away last season, seeing Masch turn round to tell Carra to f*** off - I enjoyed
that. I didn't want the players to "kowtow" to Carra or Gerrard all the time.

Masch is defo developing into a leader on the pitch.

The more the merrier.

Was at that one too, saw the same thing - really made me laugh (but not too much, sat amongst the Blackburn fans!)

I think the more leaders we have on the pitch the better - it's good that we have a talismanic captain, but I think that throughout we've got people who lead either in actions, words or both.

by **GYBS** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:51 pm

You could add that Pepe , Xabi and Torres are also leaders in a way on the pitch

by **stmichael** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:54 pm

I think Rafa deserves unlimited credit for the number of leaders we have in the squad now imo. If you look at it, Pepe, Carra, Agger, Mascherano, Xabi, Gerrard, Kuyt, Keane and Torres are all captain material character wise.

by **Reg** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:07 pm

What a positive thread !! another sign the club is on the right track.

The team is maturing with success (as pressure actually starts to decrease with each game as confidence rises, rather than the expected increase in pressure over time to extend the run) with senior players creating higher levels of expectations amongst themselves and others. THATS how championships are won so every week this run extends going forward the benefit gained will increase expotentially as the risk of failure decreases as we secure an anticipated 4th place, passing to 3rd place then we suddenly find ourselves in the 1st place run off with confidence hitting a peak. Arsenal imploded because they didnt believe they could go all the way and win, ManUtd have the confidence and could see the pressure and doubts increasing within the Arsenal camp as they got into full stride themselves with 8-10 games to go. Maturity = Confidence = Success.

That, for ze youngsters, is Ze Liverpool Way. Its good to be back. :cool:

by **Scottbot** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:38 pm

Reg wrote:What a positive thread !! another sign the club is on the right track.

The team is maturing with success (as pressure actually starts to decrease with each game as confidence rises, rather than the expected increase in pressure over time to extend the run) with senior players creating higher levels of expectations amongst themselves and others. THATS how championships are won so every week this run extends going forward the benefit gained will increase expotentially as the risk of failure decreases as we secure an anticipated 4th place, passing to 3rd place then we suddenly find ourselves in the 1st place run off with confidence hitting a peak. Arsenal imploded because they didnt believe they could go all the way and win, ManUtd have the confidence and could see the pressure and doubts increasing within the Arsenal camp as they got into full stride themselves with 8-10 games to go. Maturity = Confidence = Success.

I really hope so mate. No matter what happens the odds are definately stacked against us with (pretty much) the entire united and Chelsea squads having been in title challenging/wining teams over the past few years. It's all completely new to our lads and even the Arsenal players had a couple of months at the top last time around as you say. I don't particularly fancy us to win the thing this season but the longer we can stay in the race this time around the better will our chances be of offering a season after season year in year out challenge at the top of the table for years to come. You can deffo feel the sudden change in expectation and pressure surrounding the team and it's coming from us fans, the media and of course, the players themselves. Because of that I think a lot of people think that we needed to give Pompey a hiding the other night to really rubber-stamp our credentials and send a message to our rivals and re-assure the players (and fans) that they are sitting where they belong.

by **DanAn** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:47 pm

I agree that we seem to have a great chemistry at the moment but would go a step further with leadership types.

I think too many leaders of the same ilk can create friction. IMO it's why Lampard and Gerrard can't play well together, both are born leaders who want to direct traffic, both look to stamp there name on the game in important moments and both are uncompromising in their approach to the game. Unless you can get one to concede to the other though, which it's not in their nature to do, it's going to be chaos.

Where Carra and Gerrard work well together is they compliment each other in there leadership style. Gerrard's the brash risk taker while Carra is more pragmatic and cautious. It seems to be working well with the players we have at the moment and is allowing us to slightly overachieve IMO.

by **stmichael** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:56 pm

DanAn wrote:Where Carra and Gerrard work well together is they compliment each other in there leadership style. Gerrard's the brash risk taker while Carra is more pragmatic and cautious. It seems to be working well with the players we have at the moment and is allowing us to slightly overachieve IMO.

If push came to shove, which of the two would you have as Captain? I only ask because as fantastic as Gerrard is, I've advocated Carragher to be Captain for a long time now.

I still don't think that Gerrard is a natural leader as he merely inspires the team through his own performances. Steven Gerrard would always get stuck in and be an inspiration whether he was the captain or the tea lady because that is his way.

A leader needs to think, communicate and motivate rather than do all the work of his sub-ordinates. Look at other jobs and you'll spot a good leader because he will delegate certain tasks to others whilst thinking strategically. He will also be an excellent communicator. I think Carragher fits more in to this category than Gerrard.

by **Judge** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:59 pm

Reg wrote:What a positive thread !!

you sound surprised reg. scott usually posts well and this thread is testament to that, unless he's commenting on kuyt superman of course

on a serious not, i do believe that a captain from defence is a better option. as stmike says, carra is that man.

by **Reg** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:07 pm

Fat Frank and Gerrard apparantly cant play together but our quiet SG makes a better impact and is the one they move out of position because FF cant play out of position. It looks like FF wins because he plays centre midfield for England but its the opposite, recognising that SG can play any position.

I disagree with Scottbot that title pressure is new to our lads - we won CL in 05, got to the final in 07 and made the semis in the 2 missing years. Our lads know exactly what is required to win big trophies however only now has the league gam plan started to bear fruit. I wouldnt be surprised if we are still up there after christmas to see the Reds quietly drop out of the CL to focus on the league.

I´m happy with SG as captain knowing there is a greater maturity around the field, less folks that need to have their hands held.

by **Scottbot** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:12 pm

stmichael wrote:
DanAn wrote:Where Carra and Gerrard work well together is they compliment each other in there leadership style. Gerrard's the brash risk taker while Carra is more pragmatic and cautious. It seems to be working well with the players we have at the moment and is allowing us to slightly overachieve IMO.

If push came to shove, which of the two would you have as Captain? I only ask because as fantastic as Gerrard is, I've advocated Carragher to be Captain for a long time now.

I still don't think that Gerrard is a natural leader as he merely inspires the team through his own performances. Steven Gerrard would always get stuck in and be an inspiration whether he was the captain or the tea lady because that is his way.

I don't really mind to be honest mate. The way I see it we've got two Captains out there. I've played for both types of Captain in local league football and although my personal preference was for a vocal Captain in the mould of Carra I always felt it was more important to have a team full of talkers. It's no good having just one guy on the pitch to do the shouting, barking, encouraging and when it's necessary, the bitching. It's something i'm ALWAYS going on about to my College football sides (i purposely have not selected a Captain for any of our sides to encourage them ALL to lead) but the truth is you can't ask or persuade players to be vocal and to lead. For me (as a lowly college football coach) it's pretty much accidental and is dependent on who turns up for trials. For Benitez it isn't and we are deffo seeing a side with more leadership/chemistry this season and the manager deserves credit for that.

by **Scottbot** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:20 pm

Reg wrote:I disagree with Scottbot that title pressure is new to our lads - we won CL in 05, got to the final in 07 and made the semis in the 2 missing years. Our lads know exactly what is required to win big trophies however only now has the league gam plan started to bear fruit. I wouldnt be surprised if we are still up there after christmas to see the Reds quietly drop out of the CL to focus on the league.

I see where you are coming from mate but i think the pressure of sitting top of the pile in England is (or will prove to be) far greater than our escapades in Europe because of the history of the club, the intense media scrutiny in this country, the managerial mind game media feeding bullsh...i.t that will come out of Fergie's mouth and how much the fans want it to happen. I know you could say the same thing applied to the European Cup in 2005 but that was an absolute roller-coaster and the lads were the consumate underdogs for the entire competition. It was pressure but of a different sort I think. Also, don't think i am saying we will wilt and fall away, not at all. I fancy we've got the stomach for the fight and will be there or thereabouts come the end of the season.

by **Jimmy the Weasel** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:21 pm

stmichael wrote:If push came to shove, which of the two would you have as Captain? I only ask because as fantastic as Gerrard is, I've advocated Carragher to be Captain for a long time now.

I still don't think that Gerrard is a natural leader as he merely inspires the team through his own performances. Steven Gerrard would always get stuck in and be an inspiration whether he was the captain or the tea lady because that is his way.

A leader needs to think, communicate and motivate rather than do all the work of his sub-ordinates. Look at other jobs and you'll spot a good leader because he will delegate certain tasks to others whilst thinking strategically. He will also be an excellent communicator. I think Carragher fits more in to this category than Gerrard.

I think the formal role of captain has additional responsibilities that maybe Gerrard is slightly more suited to than Carragher. Some of the seemingly superficial stuff like giving the soundbites after matches, "representing" and being the face of the club etc.

It's interesting what you say about Gerrard, as I think Carragher is the same character on the field now as he would be whether he's officially captain or not. He would still demonstrate that leadership, organising and communicating through the team.

I also think Gerrard being made captain actually improved him as a footballer as well. It almost helped him mature as a personality on the field - he was labelled as "the leader", the one who had to set an example, the expectation that comes with that I imagine weighs heavily on him and influences how he behaves on the pitch for the better.

I don't think Carragher needed that, or that it would have had the same impact on how he plays the game as it has with Gerrard.

by **Scottbot** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:21 pm

Judge wrote:you sound surprised reg. scott usually posts well and this thread is testament to that, unless he's commenting on kuyt superman of course

I thought the Kuyt post was my best post to date as it happens mate, unfortunately it was your as well, by some distance...

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