Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:20 pm

GYBS wrote:rafa has used 22 players in the prem and CL so far - add in another 4 in the cc = so that 26 players used by the end of october - is he still rotating ?

Hello GYBS, I'm an official rotationist here so I think I can answer you this one.

Rafa has been rotating less mate, You can see that in Alonso and Riera, especifically. Alonso has played all the minutes of the league bar 55. All of them. In other seasons, in 5 games he would have been rested once at least, or twice quite probably.

So there you have a lesser degree of rotation.

I had doubts about it when we were in the 3rd week and Mascherano was in Beijing, but not after ten games. I also had doubts about it at the end of last season, IMHO Rafa was rotating less because we were not playing in the CL in these last months, but other posters like Bigmick started to see a change in the policy.

Similarly, you see Riera every week. In other seasons you saw LG in the left, then another day Riise, and the odd day Gerrard for the dismay of many.

If that wasn't enough, Rafa admitted it with quotes, he said that the current players are doing really well so that he admitted he'd make fewer changes.

Feel free to PM me for clarification when you encounter terms like "Delayed Gazelle" and you don't know what it is about .

So yes, he's still rotating, but not at the degree that is known as Rafa style.

The main debate during these years was about the impact of this policy in the team. Some of us considered it key and crucial, some of us (like me) secondary / not that important.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:21 pm

Jimmy the Weasel wrote:
GYBS wrote:So out of 11 players how many would you say should of started every game in just the prem if rafa isnt rotating much ? 8 ? 9 ?

I don't really know what you're getting at here.

I think that when players are on form and gelling well, they should get a run of matches - certain things permitting such as minor injuries that cast doubt on availability.

There have been plenty of occasions in the past when we can't understand why a player is in one week and dropped the next - I can't say that this season.

Just don't answer him mate, he'll eventually get bored and move on. Sabes, I'll come back on in a few hours mate and we can continue the discussion then.

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:21 pm

Im sorry bigmock but i am talking about rotation until you keep popping up and having a dig at me , you dont agree with my opinion fine either disagree or ignore it but stop with the sly digs bigmock.

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:23 pm

Sabre wrote:
GYBS wrote:rafa has used 22 players in the prem and CL so far - add in another 4 in the cc = so that 26 players used by the end of october - is he still rotating ?

Hello GYBS, I'm an official rotationist here so I think I can answer you this one.

Rafa has been rotating less mate, You can see that in Alonso and Riera, especifically. Alonso has played all the minutes of the league bar 55. All of them. In other seasons, in 5 games he would have been rested once at least, or twice quite probably.

So there you have a lesser degree of rotation.

I had doubts about it when we were in the 3rd week and Mascherano was in Beijing, but not after ten games.

Similarly, you see Riera every week. In other seasons you saw LG in the left, then another day Riise, and the odd day Gerrard for the dismay of many.

If that wasn't enough, Rafa admitted it with quotes, he said that the current players are doing really well so that he admitted he'd make fewer changes.

Feel free to PM me for clarification when you encounter terms like "Delayed Gazelle" and you don't know what it is about .

So yes, he's still rotating, but not at the degree that is known as Rafa style.

The main debate during these years was about the impact of this policy in the team. Some of us considered it key and crucial, some of us (like me) secondary / not that important.

Ok mate - Here is a question - If masher hadnt gone to Olympics and wasnt injured do you think Xabi would still of played as many games ?

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:25 pm

bigmick wrote:Note to any mods which are visiting-if this is not a blatant derailing of a thread and an attempt to spam it into oblivion, I've never seen it.

It's such a shame.

How is talking about ROTATION in a ROTATION thread spamming or trying to derail a thread

?

???

by **Zidane** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:30 pm

I think another factor people don't look at is the quality of the players rotating in and out of games. This year even if we rotate the guys coming in are quality. If Stevie doesn't play masch/xabi and even lucas can do the job just fine although a little less effectively when it goes to lucas but you get the idea.. Left wing Riera/Babel Right wing I doubt Kuyt will ever get a day off but when he actually does Pennant is okay. Up front we got Keane/Torres/Stevie/Kuyt/Babel. I agree he's rotating less though.

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:32 pm

Spot on about the players coming Zidane - we dont have the voronins or the letos anymore as back up - we have international players sitting waiting for a chance.

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:35 pm

Ok mate - Here is a question - If masher hadnt gone to Olympics and wasnt injured do you think Xabi would still of played as many games ?

This was my doubt back then.

Back then Bigmick said Rafa had seen the light -- changed his policy.

Myself, I thought that after all the summer saga, Mascherano was a preffered player for Rafa, and as soon as he came back from Beijing, he'd start rotation right away.

But then Rafa has proved me wrong and got me off side by playing Alonso regularly. Rafa has cleverly introduced Mascherano in some important games when we changed to the one striker system, but he has never rotated Alonso for Mascherano if you see what I mean.

So I had to stand corrected about that, Rafa seems to have changed the policy. Up front aswell... we haven't seen many combinations up front neither.

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:41 pm

Sabre wrote:
Ok mate - Here is a question - If masher hadnt gone to Olympics and wasnt injured do you think Xabi would still of played as many games ?

This was my doubt back then.

Back then Bigmick said Rafa had seen the light -- changed his policy.

Myself, I thought that after all the summer saga, Mascherano was a preffered player for Rafa, and as soon as he came back from Beijing, he'd start rotation right away.

But then Rafa has proved me wrong and got me off side by playing Alonso regularly. Rafa has cleverly introduced Mascherano in some important games when we changed to the one striker system, but he has never rotated Alonso for Mascherano if you see what I mean.

So I had to stand corrected about that, Rafa seems to have changed the policy. Up front aswell... we haven't seen many combinations up front neither.

But if Torres was fit i expect we would of seen masher and xabi rotating more depending on opposition same with the formations as well mate . At the moment and for last couple of weeks rafa hasnt been able to rest players as much as he wants due to injuries to torres , gerrard,masher, babel - when all back fit we will see them all being rested and moved around the same as always but as zidane says this time the standard coming in is higher - we bring babel in for reira instaed of riise and babel etc.

by **Igor Zidane** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:28 pm

The debate has never really been about wether rotation works or not , we are all and always have been in broad agreement that some sort of rotation is needed . The sticking point is /was "STYLING" to counter the "THE DELAYED GAZZELLE THEORY".

Is /was making 5 and 6 changes to the team early on in the season beneficial to the league campaign after christmas .I.E players are fresher for the title run in . Answer to this from anti roataionalists (should be anti stylingerists really). It's no good being fresh after chrimbo if your out of it before chrimbo .
Answer from pro's , of course it's beneficial if you want to compete in all comps.

This season we have got off to a flier and it's no coincedence that the STYLING has stopped , not the rotation but the styling . Now what the pro's and anti's have to wait for ,is if we are still in the mix come January . What will happen then i've no idea. But and Bigmick hinted at this ,if by January and Rafa does start rotating or styiling a bit more ,it will be a whole lot more preferable and understandable whilst we're still in the mix.

There is no doubt whatsoever that rotation does work imo ,when you have a quality squad , quality to replace quality. That's been my stance for the length of this thread if anyone wants to check . What has to happen is the stopping of the STYLING so early on in the season , and for the rest of the season in the league and possibly the champions league . Style all you want in the cup comps and i'd be happy.

There's no doubt that Rafa has changed his approach ,not rotation but styling and the benefits are for all to see . Anti's and pro's differ very little over the whole rotation debate , and we don't differ at all in wanting the best for LFC and for us to win the league.

This debate has been a great debate over the years and it's interesting to see people's stances softening (me included ) on both sides of the debate and coming together more in broad agreement this year as the campiagn has started so well and long may it continue.

by **Sabre** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:25 pm

Just checking, has Rafa stopped seeing the light tonight? Have we that Rafa of old? IMHO, I don't think selections like this will happen often, but he'll keep the way he has so far. That is, playing the same team normally unless clear signs of tiredness or injury risk appear.

I wanted to stress that what we haven't seen rotation tonight. Rotation is about using more players than the regular starters OFTEN, and not after big rests of 7 games. Just as Mick asked time to see the results of playing the same starting eleven, you need time for rotation policy.

So IMHO, Rafa hasn't rotated, but rested some players that had a lot of games (curiously not Alonso).

BUt the team selection is debatable? of course it is. Lucas had no confidence nor games on him so the team has been directly a weaker one with his selection. We missed Riera, and we missed Keane too. I expected to see Mascherano playing aswell, maybe he had a knock or something?

In a way, we started the game with players of previous season and the game reminded me to games of the previous seasons.

I think this massive rests motivated for playing players too many games in a row and mid week, won't be a general rule though. I do think that Rafa has changed the policy and this strange selections will be rare.

The team selection today, though, could have costed us.

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:39 pm

Yep tonight was a dangerous one Sabes, no doubt about it. Give Babel a game? Lucas even? fair enough. Pennant? Hyppia? All good. All four of them though at the same time? Not for me no. Maybe a fraction fortunate to get away with this one tonight me thinks.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:41 pm

A change too far tonight I think.

We could've rested one of Alonso or Mascherano, without the need to bring in Lucas, whilst Riera had to play given the lack of a suitable alternative. Add to that, Kuyt was working pretty much on his own up top and needed a partner with a bit of guile to help break them down - that was Keane.

Hyypia's inclusion was probably intended to counter Crouch, but I think after coming off the back of such a solid performance vsd Chelsea, Agger should've started. It's not as if we had a lot of work to do to keep them out, whereas he may have contributed in going forward.

by **Sabre** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:42 pm

You know what? for me there were too many changes too today, but I'd want to know what was the physical state of all the players today after the last game.

by **JC_81** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:59 pm

bigmick wrote:Yep tonight was a dangerous one Sabes, no doubt about it. Give Babel a game? Lucas even? fair enough. Pennant? Hyppia? All good. All four of them though at the same time? Not for me no. Maybe a fraction fortunate to get away with this one tonight me thinks.

Agree with that entirely Mick.

I thought we changed it too much and it almost backfired big style. If tonight's selection is a sign of things to come then we can forget about winning anything.

On a more positive note though, I don't think Benitez will pull this type of stunt too often this season. There is overwhelming evidence imo that less rotation this season = better results, and Benitez won't ignore this.

We've just had our toughest match of the season against Chelsea, and have a home game 3 days later that we should win, and on top of that we're about to enter a tough period of 2 games per week. If Benitez was ever going to rest half the team, it was going to be this game.

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