Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:12 pm

GYBS wrote:yeah but do you really think they will do that ? i dont ?

If they don't get the money off us they don't have many options. If they sell players they are even less likely to receive money so the only options they really have are to sell the club or dip their hands in their own pockets.

If we win the title this year they would probably make as much money from commercialisation as they would from a reasonable run in the CL anyway. Who wouldnt want to celebrate us winning the title by splashing out on the dvd etc?

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:15 pm

s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:yeah but do you really think they will do that ? i dont ?

If they don't get the money off us they don't have many options. If they sell players they are even less likely to receive money so the only options they really have are to sell the club or dip their hands in their own pockets.

If we win the title this year they would probably make as much money from commercialisation as they would from a reasonable run in the CL anyway. Who wouldnt want to celebrate us winning the title by splashing out on the dvd etc?

But selling players to get money will look a realistic option to them - getting 30 plus for trroes and gerrard etc will be massive profit for them .

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:20 pm

GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:yeah but do you really think they will do that ? i dont ?

If they don't get the money off us they don't have many options. If they sell players they are even less likely to receive money so the only options they really have are to sell the club or dip their hands in their own pockets.

If we win the title this year they would probably make as much money from commercialisation as they would from a reasonable run in the CL anyway. Who wouldnt want to celebrate us winning the title by splashing out on the dvd etc?

But selling players to get money will look a realistic option to them - getting 30 plus for trroes and gerrard etc will be massive profit for them .

Not when they factor in the loss from not qualifying for the CL AND not getting the league money for finishing top 4.

Anyway I don't think we bought Torres ,Keane, Mascherano to make a profit, we bought them to win titles. I want the league .... you can keep the money.

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:20 pm

Like i say mate we are stuck between a rock and a hard place - we all want to win the title more than anything but we all know we need the money from the cl so we got to stay competitive in that as well . we are doing well so far in both competitions and think we will need to do a bit of rotating as the season goes to keep us as competitive as possible

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:22 pm

s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:yeah but do you really think they will do that ? i dont ?

If they don't get the money off us they don't have many options. If they sell players they are even less likely to receive money so the only options they really have are to sell the club or dip their hands in their own pockets.

If we win the title this year they would probably make as much money from commercialisation as they would from a reasonable run in the CL anyway. Who wouldnt want to celebrate us winning the title by splashing out on the dvd etc?

But selling players to get money will look a realistic option to them - getting 30 plus for trroes and gerrard etc will be massive profit for them .

Not when they factor in the loss from not qualifying for the CL AND not getting the league money for finishing top 4.

Anyway I don't think we bought Torres ,Keane, Mascherano to make a profit, we bought them to win titles. I want the league .... you can keep the money.

well the owners have prob sanctioned the purchases in order for us to compete better to enable them to get more moeny mate . we all want the league - the owners want the money . who has a bigger say ?

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:27 pm

GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:yeah but do you really think they will do that ? i dont ?

If they don't get the money off us they don't have many options. If they sell players they are even less likely to receive money so the only options they really have are to sell the club or dip their hands in their own pockets.

If we win the title this year they would probably make as much money from commercialisation as they would from a reasonable run in the CL anyway. Who wouldnt want to celebrate us winning the title by splashing out on the dvd etc?

But selling players to get money will look a realistic option to them - getting 30 plus for trroes and gerrard etc will be massive profit for them .

Not when they factor in the loss from not qualifying for the CL AND not getting the league money for finishing top 4.

Anyway I don't think we bought Torres ,Keane, Mascherano to make a profit, we bought them to win titles. I want the league .... you can keep the money.

well the owners have prob sanctioned the purchases in order for us to compete better to enable them to get more moeny mate . we all want the league - the owners want the money . who has a bigger say ?

Whats that got to do with the argument? Are you saying now YOU want to do well in both just to please the owners?

As far as I am aware Rafa picks the team ..... not the owners.

As I said it would be more profitable to win the league than do well in the CL.

Liverpool fc is about winning trophies not making money for some two bit owners.

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:31 pm

s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:yeah but do you really think they will do that ? i dont ?

If they don't get the money off us they don't have many options. If they sell players they are even less likely to receive money so the only options they really have are to sell the club or dip their hands in their own pockets.

If we win the title this year they would probably make as much money from commercialisation as they would from a reasonable run in the CL anyway. Who wouldnt want to celebrate us winning the title by splashing out on the dvd etc?

But selling players to get money will look a realistic option to them - getting 30 plus for trroes and gerrard etc will be massive profit for them .

Not when they factor in the loss from not qualifying for the CL AND not getting the league money for finishing top 4.

Anyway I don't think we bought Torres ,Keane, Mascherano to make a profit, we bought them to win titles. I want the league .... you can keep the money.

well the owners have prob sanctioned the purchases in order for us to compete better to enable them to get more moeny mate . we all want the league - the owners want the money . who has a bigger say ?

Whats that got to do with the argument? Are you saying now YOU want to do well in both just to please the owners?

As far as I am aware Rafa picks the team ..... not the owners.

As I said it would be more profitable to win the league than do well in the CL.

Liverpool fc is about winning trophies not making money for some two bit owners.

yes and thats the fans point of view that we all share mate - but its the owners that control the club thou and they want money nothing else .

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:35 pm

GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:yeah but do you really think they will do that ? i dont ?

If they don't get the money off us they don't have many options. If they sell players they are even less likely to receive money so the only options they really have are to sell the club or dip their hands in their own pockets.

If we win the title this year they would probably make as much money from commercialisation as they would from a reasonable run in the CL anyway. Who wouldnt want to celebrate us winning the title by splashing out on the dvd etc?

But selling players to get money will look a realistic option to them - getting 30 plus for trroes and gerrard etc will be massive profit for them .

Not when they factor in the loss from not qualifying for the CL AND not getting the league money for finishing top 4.

Anyway I don't think we bought Torres ,Keane, Mascherano to make a profit, we bought them to win titles. I want the league .... you can keep the money.

well the owners have prob sanctioned the purchases in order for us to compete better to enable them to get more moeny mate . we all want the league - the owners want the money . who has a bigger say ?

Whats that got to do with the argument? Are you saying now YOU want to do well in both just to please the owners?

As far as I am aware Rafa picks the team ..... not the owners.

As I said it would be more profitable to win the league than do well in the CL.

Liverpool fc is about winning trophies not making money for some two bit owners.

yes and thats the fans point of view that we all share mate - but its the owners that control the club thou and they want money nothing else .

Then surely as a FAN you should be agreeing with me. If the two tw@ts see things differently thats up to them. But AS A FAN you must want a trophy surely? Which is were I came in !

I would prefer we concentrate on winning the league as a FAN !!!

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:37 pm

s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:yeah but do you really think they will do that ? i dont ?

If they don't get the money off us they don't have many options. If they sell players they are even less likely to receive money so the only options they really have are to sell the club or dip their hands in their own pockets.

If we win the title this year they would probably make as much money from commercialisation as they would from a reasonable run in the CL anyway. Who wouldnt want to celebrate us winning the title by splashing out on the dvd etc?

But selling players to get money will look a realistic option to them - getting 30 plus for trroes and gerrard etc will be massive profit for them .

Not when they factor in the loss from not qualifying for the CL AND not getting the league money for finishing top 4.

Anyway I don't think we bought Torres ,Keane, Mascherano to make a profit, we bought them to win titles. I want the league .... you can keep the money.

well the owners have prob sanctioned the purchases in order for us to compete better to enable them to get more moeny mate . we all want the league - the owners want the money . who has a bigger say ?

Whats that got to do with the argument? Are you saying now YOU want to do well in both just to please the owners?

As far as I am aware Rafa picks the team ..... not the owners.

As I said it would be more profitable to win the league than do well in the CL.

Liverpool fc is about winning trophies not making money for some two bit owners.

yes and thats the fans point of view that we all share mate - but its the owners that control the club thou and they want money nothing else .

Then surely as a FAN you should be agreeing with me. If the two tw@ts see things differently thats up to them. But AS A FAN you must want a trophy surely? Which is were I came in !

I would prefer we concentrate on winning the league as a FAN !!!

I havent disagreed with you about wanting a title or trophy i do mate but i also want us to progress as far as we can in cl as well to give us money to enable us to strengteh the squad even further to enable us to dominate .

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:42 pm

We can go through it all again if you wish ? I don't thing we are good enough to challenge in both and would prefer to concentrate on the league even at the expense of the CL.

If you prefer money rather than trophies that is your choice ..... not mine.

The two tw@ts arn't using the money earned to buy players they are using the money earned to pay THEIR debts.

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:44 pm

I think its absolutely crystal clear that Rafa has changed tack on what he has done in previous seasons, not just regarding team selections, rotation and also as that Marcelinho who sabre quoted said, how adventurous he has been.
And to be fair to him it must be hard to go back on your beliefs but he had to do it or he could of been finished after this season.
We have started playing a far more settled side and it has now put us in a very healthy position in both the league and the champions league.
Imo we are as good as through in the champions league, play the strongest team at anfield against athletico and we should win, that leaves to games with us virtually guaranteed that we are through, we could possibly bring in one or two fringe players then.
Nobody has said that rotation isnt needed but doing it at the right time is crucial.
We havent imo in the past and the things mick has talked about like rhthym fluency etc are spot on. We are seeing it now, that performance yesterday without Torres was outstanding by a mile our best away league performance under Rafa.
I have been delighted with his substitutions this season as well, he has shown ambition in almost every game, at city bringing off both full backs - thats not something we would have ever seen under Rafa previously, well not for attacking players anyway

No i think its fair to say that Rafa does appear to have 'seen the light' and so far its benefiting us.
Who knows if it will have an adverse affect come the end of the season but lets be honest we tried the other way and it didnt work.
Least at the moment we can be genuinely excited and optimistic.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:49 pm

Top post Ace'

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:57 pm

s@int wrote:We can go through it all again if you wish ? I don't thing we are good enough to challenge in both and would prefer to concentrate on the league even at the expense of the CL.

If you prefer money rather than trophies that is your choice ..... not mine.

The two tw@ts arn't using the money earned to buy players they are using the money earned to pay THEIR debts.

And i dont think we are good enough yet to win the league mate . yes we are doing well playing our first 11 but we still need better options in the squad to enable us to keep going all the way through the season not just after 9 games and for that we need more money and to get more money we need to keep going as far as we can in europe as thats where the big bucks is - like i say stuck between a rock and a hard place.I dont want money over titles but Money is what makes the club tick and is what football is about these days im afraid to say it .

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:29 pm

Some people get this debates personal as if it was a problem to give credit to Bigmick, Toffeehater, Lando or whoever.

I have lorries and lorries of credit to give to Bigmick. He knows I respect his views since 2004.

Regarding rotation I will give him credit when I'm sure of it.

Now it seems obvious to me that Rafa changed the policy, and I admit him that. Late? Yes, he spotted it before I did. I just say "you were right" when I'm honestly sure about it.

And about rotation being a key factor (note that I say "key" as in "main", not saying it doesn't have an impact at all), I'll give him credit when I'm sure of it, not before, because otherwise I'd be lying. I'm missing the obvious? may be. Am I sincere? totally.

Do I think rotating less has good consequences? Yes

Why I am not a antirotationist? Because I also think it has bad sides. To mention:

* If you play a player like Mascherano rarely, you might have him unhappy at some point, and in big clubs you have to have deep squads.

* Alonso has played all minutes bar 52 in the league. If he also plays the CL, I'm sure that in December he won't be as good as he's now.

If you read Tomkins, he mentions rotation and he also doubts about it being a key factor, he says you cannot prove it's the key factor when there are other factors involved. And I don't think Tomkins has problems to give credit to bigmick, he's just writing his thoughts. Ridiculous for many? Possibly, but his thoughts.

It's not a problem of who's right or wrong in my case, I'm happy to agree Bigmick when I sincerely agree! I like him as a poster!

And it's not a problem of admitting to be wrong neither! I was bloody wrong with Torres' adaptation and Gonzalez impact!

--------

In a nutshell:

Do I see benefits of insisting with the same block? Yes.

Do I have doubts we will pay a price for it in some months? yes, I have doubts, and I'll be very happy if I'm wrong.

Do I think in the second season of Rafa we weren't challenging because of rotation? No. I think back then the squad was worse than it is now. We didn't have Mascherano or Torres, which are key.

What's more key to our current success, lack of rotation or that we have been building a squad progressively? I couldn't tell what % to give to each factor, plus other factors like Alonso or Agger not being injured or recovering from it. If someone knows to tell what's the main factor, fair play to him, I can't.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:39 pm

Back onto the subject of rotation anyway (there are plenty of other threads to discuss owners, money, which trophy we'd rather win etc etc) and onto the question/point which some have raised, what about rotation going forward? Has rafa really changed, and will he get a bit stylee as time goes on?

Well the first thing to point out of course is that you can't play the same team in every single game. Equally, all the players regardless of how fit they are, are going to need a rest at some point in the season, in most cases they are going to need a couple of rests. You saw that with Kuyt Away at Athletico Madrid, probably the fittest player in the team (he simply must be with the amount of running around he does) he came on with a couple of minutes to go. Crucially though and mega sensibly, we gave the 4-5-1 a good go knowing full well there was a very strong chance we'd need it against Chelsea. It did show however that everybody at some point needs a rest when they're playing three games a week, and that you can do it without being silly.

Most of rotation is taken care of by injuries of course. It's unlikely for instance that Agger is feeling too tired right now, or Aurelio. There will be a stage though where Carragher could put his feet up for game, or Gerrard or Alonso. I'd be waiting for that point though until they have a knock, till they're 60/40 fit and that's the point I'd be giving them recovery time. Let the players bodies dictate the state of play rather than attempting to wrap them in cotton wool.

The good thing about the whole situation is, now we have momentum and are flying any rotation will have markedly less impact upon the team than it did in days gone bt where we staggered from one bizarre line up to the next. FWIW I actually think that depending upon fitness, the game against Portsmouth could be one to look at. If for instance Torres is fit, what better time to give Keane a rest for an hour and bring the star striker back. Hopefully the Irishman comes back on with the game already won. Equally, after his imperious performances of late Alonso (Gareth Barry instead anyone

) could be rotated with Lucas. It does depend on the fitnes of each individual player, but we are approaching the stage about now where I think it would be legitimate to tinker a little.

Lastly if I could just come back to some people's difficulty with the psitive effect which less rotation in the first few weeks of the season is having. One or two have said it's more down to alonso finding form, Kuyt running around a lot, Riera offering balance etc etc than it is down to rotation. There is something in all those statements, as there is in the asserion that in all honest we've had a bucketload of luck as well, only a fool would deny that.

It's not, never has been and never will be ALL down to rotation. Nobody ever said it was, though some who were ardent defenders of the mantra tried to make it so on occasions. It's simply about giving yourself a chance, and that's all that Rafa has done since he's seen the light, he's given us a chance. Now of course we'll lose games whilst picking settled teams (lets be honest we nearly have a few times already) and no doubt we'll go on our bl!!!ps at some point, but there is no question in my mind that given our current policy the team spirit and resilience of the team has been enhanced. As such, we then have more of a chance of bouncing out of any slumps with more conviction.

Anyways onward and upward, and at the very least it's now looking like we are about to mount some sort of title challenge. I maintain what I've been saying since the middle of last season, keep it sensible and we will go very close to winning it. Within six points and possibly even closer than that was my call then, and I think that's about right.

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